Sport Auto - Nordschleife laptimes

[DeDe]

HvS is a very good driver, but he is more familiar to Porsches. He is not used to other cars, because he has very little time at the wheel to study the car.

False. They usually drives the testcars for days, both on and off the tracks. For instance they tested the McLaren MP4-12C for 10 days.
It is a common misbelief that he only has 3 laps on the Ring. He has several laps on the Ring, but only 3 of them are for timing.

 

[Mafalda]

HvS is a very good driver, but he is more familiar to Porsches. He is not used to other cars, because he has very little time at the wheel to study the car.

I agree. I said many years ago, HvS seems to have a special feeling with Porsche. This does not mean that he is in bad faith: sometimes goes wrong with the Porsche (ex 997 TurboS), sometimes is incredibly fast with other mnfs (exs: Murciélago MY02 580ps 7.50, or California GT 7.56)

 

[Mafalda]

False. They usually drives the testcars for days, both on and off the tracks. For instance they tested the McLaren MP4-12C for 10 days.
It is a common misbelief that he only has 3 laps on the Ring. He has several laps on the Ring, but only 3 of them are for timing.

nice info

 

[Guibo]

Who? you, for ex.
Link? no problem.... (Post #2032)
SUPERCARS.NET - Comprehensive Specifications, Galleries & Forums since 1996
I cannot find any mentions about the abilty di HvS: you accepted the laptime with no objections

to be a victim, you need a butcher.
Ferrari sells lots of cars, makes a lot of money, continues winning the most part of comparos and "SCOTY" awards
the crusades of some ferrari-hater are just folklore ...

330CIZHP made a comment, I made mine. Curious that you have felt called upon, however it is a problem of yours, not mine.
"Excusatio non petita, accusatio manifesta"
that's all, now talking about the LF-A N.E.

First of all, that post you linked to...HAS NO DOUBT about whether a 458 can be faster than a 7:38. If you had bothered to actually open your eyes and read the post, you would have seen that the point was to explain how a GT-R might lap as fast as a 458, despite its power/wt ratio. Do you see me saying anywhere that a GT-R can absolutely not lap faster than 7:38? Let me make it plainly clear for you, as you could not understand it the first time; nor did you understand it the second time you revisited that post: Both the GT-R and 458 can lap faster than 7:38!

Secondly, if you read some of my other posts, you will see that your "Ferrari-hater crusade" comment is outlandish. In this post, I say the Scuderia might be able to achieve 7:20's:
"Scuderia, it's very possible for 7:20's"
SUPERCARS.NET - Comprehensive Specifications, Galleries & Forums since 1996

Here I am saying Sascha Bert's 7:32 is not the absolute fastest time for the 458 also:
"Don't forget Sascha Bert had a passenger; is he going to go 100% in a car with a passenger and without a rollcage? Probably not."
SUPERCARS.NET - Comprehensive Specifications, Galleries & Forums since 1996

Now, on this very forum, here is a question I asked of you over a year ago, regarding Bert in the 458:
"The best the 458 can do is after only a handful of laps with a driver who does not live in the car, day after day for months/years, who probably retains some fear of wrecking the car and possibly killing his passenger? I doubt that is the best 10/10ths."
"So you can't answer those other question, yet you are confident that that's the best (10/10ths) limit of the 458?"
http://www.germancarforum.com/nissa...ismo-nissan-gt-r-specv-test-2.html#post489582

You did not answer that question and it's possible you did not read it, so I ask you again: Do you honestly think that's the best a 458 can do. And more relevantly to this discussion, does it sound to you like I'm denying that 7:38 by HvS in the 458 can't be bettered?

You've called me out as a Ferrari-hater (yet again, what surprise!), yet it seems there is a victim and a butcher here: The butcher is you, the victim is history.
And why should I not feel "called upon"? You said "in general," this was the sentiment toward Ferrari, HvS, and the 458's time. Was there anyone else on both of these forums with whom you have had discussions about all 3 matters? If indeed it is, as you claimed it was, "in general" then surely you can offer up some other names, rather than hiding behind your usual mask of innuendo.

 

[Guibo]

False. They usually drives the testcars for days, both on and off the tracks. For instance they tested the McLaren MP4-12C for 10 days.
It is a common misbelief that he only has 3 laps on the Ring. He has several laps on the Ring, but only 3 of them are for timing.

Those other laps would be next to worthless for finding a car's true potential, if they are used for photography purposes. As I understand it from the Scuderia test, the actual 3 "timed" laps during the official 'Ring session comprises:
1 out lap for warmup
1 flying timed lap
1 cool down lap

 

[DeDe]

Those other laps would be next to worthless for finding a car's true potential, if they are used for photography purposes. As I understand it from the Scuderia test, the actual 3 "timed" laps during the official 'Ring session comprises:
1 out lap for warmup
1 flying timed lap
1 cool down lap

This is from the Scuderia Supertest:

"5 p.m., arrival at the Green Hell (...) two laps in traffic: for photo-shooting and training (...) 7.30 p.m. 3 laps for timing, quite exclusive in a Ferrari at the Nordschleife"

 

[Guibo]

This is from the Scuderia Supertest:

"5 p.m., arrival at the Green Hell (...) two laps in traffic: for photo-shooting and training (...) 7.30 p.m. 3 laps for timing, quite exclusive in a Ferrari at the Nordschleife"

3 laps for timing. It doesn't say all 3 are timed laps. It wouldn't make any sense for the very first lap to be timed as many cars on sport tires and carbon brakes will need properly heated tires and brakes even before the first corner, otherwise they would be into the barrier at anything remotely close to a 10/10ths pace.

 

[DeDe]

3 laps for timing. It doesn't say all 3 are timed laps. It wouldn't make any sense for the very first lap to be timed as many cars on sport tires and carbon brakes will need properly heated tires and brakes even before the first corner, otherwise they would be into the barrier at anything remotely close to a 10/10ths pace.

"Drei Runden auf Zeit" - "Three rounds for time" - That is in that article. He's not an idiot or amateur, if he says 3 laps for timing, he probably warmed up the tyres on a previous lap.

Btw. it's hard to believe that they spent that 2 hour-period between the photoshooting and the actual timing with drinking coffee or watching the traffic.

Accept the fact that this "hurry-hurry-lapping of HvS" is only an internet legend, which already lost its source.

 

[Mr Robert]

This is the thread for the benchmark times posted by Sport Auto. Please take discussions regarding whether or not the times are to be trusted elsewhere.

As it stands today, the times published by Sport Auto are the most reliable and as long as no other independent publication can do it better - the benchmark stands.

 

[martinbo]

The important thing about this thread is that it gives us a consistent frame of reference by which we can assess performance car capability. HvS' Sport Auto times might not represent the ultimate capability of a car's performance around the 'Ring but the reference point it affords us is of much greater value and relevance. HvS is one of the world's most experienced 'Ring campaigners and whilst he may not bring the nth level of times that are the sole preserve of factory test drivers and commissioned racing drivers (for the express purpose of setting a record time) what he does bring is his consistent approach to fast laptimes.

Factory drivers backed by hundreds of laps, the resulting accumulation of telemetry and an entire technical team are expected to be faster. They're expected to be able extract maximum attack times for every inch of that circuit given the analytical data and arising scope for vehicle adjustment available to them.

That HvS can turn in so many consistent times in the sub-7:50 mark is a testament to his ability and to the suitability of Sport Auto's super tests as being the closest thing we can get to a benchmark for objectively comparable 'Ring times. It's certainly not like the man is slow around the 'Ring. He's also possibly operating with a slightly more pragmatic margin of safety given the bad publicity that would arise for a car maker if he were to bin an exotic on the entry into Underpantzenmitskidmarkz.

And, his times are waaay beyond the capability of us forum mortals too for that matter. So I agree with dr Dunkel - let's leave the benchracing and inter-camp animosity out of this thread please and focus rather on the times as set by HvS and Sport Auto.

 

[Mafalda]

First of all, that post you linked to...HAS NO DOUBT about whether a 458 can be faster than a 7:38. If you had bothered to actually open your eyes and read the post, you would have seen that the point was to explain how a GT-R might lap as fast as a 458, despite its power/wt ratio. Do you see me saying anywhere that a GT-R can absolutely not lap faster than 7:38? Let me make it plainly clear for you, as you could not understand it the first time; nor did you understand it the second time you revisited that post: Both the GT-R and 458 can lap faster than 7:38!

Secondly, if you read some of my other posts, you will see that your "Ferrari-hater crusade" comment is outlandish. In this post, I say the Scuderia might be able to achieve 7:20's:
"Scuderia, it's very possible for 7:20's"
SUPERCARS.NET - Comprehensive Specifications, Galleries & Forums since 1996

Here I am saying Sascha Bert's 7:32 is not the absolute fastest time for the 458 also:
"Don't forget Sascha Bert had a passenger; is he going to go 100% in a car with a passenger and without a rollcage? Probably not."
SUPERCARS.NET - Comprehensive Specifications, Galleries & Forums since 1996

Now, on this very forum, here is a question I asked of you over a year ago, regarding Bert in the 458:
"The best the 458 can do is after only a handful of laps with a driver who does not live in the car, day after day for months/years, who probably retains some fear of wrecking the car and possibly killing his passenger? I doubt that is the best 10/10ths."
"So you can't answer those other question, yet you are confident that that's the best (10/10ths) limit of the 458?"
http://www.germancarforum.com/nissa...ismo-nissan-gt-r-specv-test-2.html#post489582

You did not answer that question and it's possible you did not read it, so I ask you again: Do you honestly think that's the best a 458 can do. And more relevantly to this discussion, does it sound to you like I'm denying that 7:38 by HvS in the 458 can't be bettered?

You've called me out as a Ferrari-hater (yet again, what surprise!), yet it seems there is a victim and a butcher here: The butcher is you, the victim is history.
And why should I not feel "called upon"? You said "in general," this was the sentiment toward Ferrari, HvS, and the 458's time. Was there anyone else on both of these forums with whom you have had discussions about all 3 matters? If indeed it is, as you claimed it was, "in general" then surely you can offer up some other names, rather than hiding behind your usual mask of innuendo.

Guibo, know very well why you wrote "the 458 with S. Bert can do better: in that comparison, there was also the GT-R, once again failed the manfr's claims. Then you have invented this story, because" if the 458 could be improved , then the GT-R could the same... "
Guibo a fan of ferrari? strange this is new. we want to remember your comments about Supertest of California? or your role in the threads "how ferrari spins"? or the MT comparsos "Ferrrai questionable practices" cause they changed the tyres pressure (...0.14 bar). Sorry, can you post me the link with your comment about the Aventador @ Balocco: they've changed the tyres (not the tyres pressure....): two hotlaps with used tyres, two laps with new ones... the link, please
am I a Butcher? yes, but some Mr "two meters and two measures", as you
and now, let's talk about the LF-A

 

[martinbo]

... And after I asked nicely for this thread to stay on the topic of Sport Auto Super Tests. Mafalda, I won't ask again.

 

[Mafalda]

... And after I asked nicely for this thread to stay on the topic of Sport Auto Super Tests. Mafalda, I won't ask again.

ok

 

[Guibo]

Discussion taken here:
http://www.germancarforum.com/lexus...upercar-production-version-58.html#post558312

 

[Mafalda]

Interestinq question: just 1 hotlap seems poor to do the best. contrary, 3 consecutive hotlaps = 62 Km, a big stress for driver and cars

 

[Soup]

7.30 min - Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0

 

[DeDe]

March-update

8.03 min - Jaguar XKR-S (550 hp, 1843 kg)

12 seconds slower than Sascha Bert's time on the full 20,8 km-layout...

 

[DeDe]

Next Supertest:
Porsche Panamera Turbo vs. Panamera Turbo S

 

[Sunny]

8.03 min - Jaguar XKR-S (550 hp, 1843 kg)

12 seconds slower than Sascha Bert's time on the full 20,8 km-layout...

It will be interesting to see how M6 compares to this.

 

[DeDe]

It will be interesting to see how M6 compares to this.

M6 should be at 7.50 with those Pilot Supersports and ceramic brakes IMO.