Comparison tests Porsche 918 vs McLaren P1 vs LaFerrari

[Rolf]

Also curious in the Autocar P1 test is the absence of a 0-200mph time. The McLaren F1 had one, the CC8S had one, the Noble M600 had one. All these cars are substantially slower to 200mph than a P1, yet the P1 never made 200mph with Autocar. Yes there was one hell of a wind that day and it played havoc with times, hindering far more than it helped.

Yeah the wind must have been howling when they tested the 918 as well cause they didn't test that car to 200mph either and to 180mph it was only 0.2sec (eye blink) within the P1 time.

 

[Mafalda]

Oh the denial of the Fchat Cosa Nostra is staggering. The problem is that we don't really know whether the 458 in that test was genuine either. Autocar did once write to Ferrari about a 360 that did 0-100mph in 8.8s.

Why does Ferrari threaten their customers with prohibition if they allow their car to take part in a test? Why wasn't Treynor allowed to send his LaFerrari to Laguna Seca for this test? Ferrari have a massive attitude problem and their extreme reluctance to allow customer cars to compete is further evidence of what everyone already knows.

I cannot find scoops: again
we'll know teh 360 yesyed by autocar was not surely "customer specs..:" do you really want I show you all (all means "all mnfrs) the strange-road-tests I Know??? you'll need an holiday for reading them all
About LaFe, also we know ferrari (finally) agree for a comparo, but with an official unit.
no scoop here

 

[Emu]

Yeah the wind must have been howling when they tested the 918 as well cause they didn't test that car to 200mph either and to 180mph it was only 0.2sec (eye blink) within the P1 time.

The 918 isn't particularly quick to 200mph, that's why, after 165mph it only has ~450hp/ton and 745hp. The M600 is much faster than the 918 from 150-200mph. A 650S isn't much slower either. You can clearly see in the Autocar head-to-head that the P1 walks on the 918 after 150mph, >6s faster 150-200mph. Same day, same weather.

I cannot find scoops: again
we'll know teh 360 yesyed by autocar was not surely "customer specs..:" do you really want I show you all (all means "all mnfrs) the strange-road-tests I Know??? you'll need an holiday for reading them all
About LaFe, also we know ferrari (finally) agree for a comparo, but with an official unit.
no scoop here

The problem is that this has been mentioned by several magazines and Ferrari are the only ones they have singled out, so draw your own conclusions. This isn't a one-off and these are only the times they were actually caught red-handed. Why is a customer LaFerrari not an official unit, surely that is as official as it gets?

 

[Observer1]

Emu , after ton os posts where you to try to show us who was the "real winnner", now you're just tring to show "the real loser..."
and about your link, it's not a scoop or a masterpiece too, but just a poor 4 years old copy-paste.
as ussual, the sense is ever teh same: " only Ferrari manipulates (every) test with afterburner!"
unfortunally for you
- the others (sometimes) also send press cars in "very good form"
- The others (sometimes) also refuse comparo
- the same C. Harris wrote " mnfrs optimized the press-cars? sometimes, but I can understand." (It's funny the differences between "optimized" and "manipulated"
- the same UK mags, just few months later the "scandal", compared the 458 Vs Mp4-12c, and the winner was... 458...
- In the masterpiece article I canno t finde hwen Autocar wrote "we've tested an official 458 Speciale and a stock one, and performances were the same"

Yes, Harris's 4 year old rant is the favorite of all bench racers who use it as conclusive proof for their conspiracy theories. Last August Autocar documented the following on the comparison test between the 458S & the 650S (in answer to your query):

"And for anyone who still suspects Maranello’s boys are employing dodgy tactics to secure favourable publicity, consider this. Shortly after we figured Ferrari’s own Speciale for our road test, we figured another. The car was supplied by a reader. (...) But, despite being in less-than-perfect running order, the second Speciale replicated the performance of the first on maximum in-gear acceleration on every 20mph increment between 30- and 90mph in fourth gear to within a tenth of a second.

So there you have it. Ferrari isn’t afraid of track comparisons. Ferrari doesn’t supply bent press cars. And Ferrari certainly doesn’t need to send the cavalry along when we test their new models in future – because even when they don’t, we end up with near-enough identical results. End of."

http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/new-cars/ferrari-458-speciale-versus-mclaren-650s-what-really-happened

 

[Emu]

They don't really supply cars at all anymore. Cars can be frigged in different ways. Tyres, weight, hp, alignment etc. One honest test doesn't make up for it and the fact they are adamant that no customer LaFerrari can be tested smells fishy. People are less interested in acceleration these days, so cheating would likely be restricted to track comparisons.

Having said that the LaFerrari's acceleration and weight claims are preposterous and if a factory car met these claims I would be suspicious as hell.

 

[Observer1]

They don't really supply cars at all anymore. Cars can be frigged in different ways. Tyres, weight, hp, alignment etc. One honest test doesn't make up for it and the fact they are adamant that no customer LaFerrari can be tested smells fishy. People are less interested in acceleration these days, so cheating would likely be restricted to track comparisons.

Having said that the LaFerrari's acceleration and weight claims are preposterous and if a factory car met these claims I would be suspicious as hell.

And McLaren would know all about that after the Evo episode and asking Evo to withhold the results for months on end, then fitting TrofeoR slippers and the refusal to have the P1 tested at Dunsfold for the TG comparo...

 

[Emu]

And McLaren would know all about that after the Evo episode and asking Evo to withhold the results for months on end, then fitting TrofeoR slippers and the refusal to have the P1 tested at Dunsfold for the TG comparo...

What's that got to do with cheating? You can argue it's media manipulation but then Cup 2 vs PZCS isn't really fair by any stretch, even Cup+ vs PZCS isn't fair. The unfortunate problem is that there are no two off-the-shelf Pirelli and Michelin tyres that match each other's performance and the 918's bespoke Cup 2 is an unknown quantity. PZCS and MPSS is probably about as close as it gets. The Trofeo Rs are optional, like the Weissach Pack, only they cost much less, so perfectly legitimate. McLaren had 2 cracks at Anglesey with 2 different tyres and the same car, Porsche had two cracks at Laguna with 2 different cars and the same tyres.

They didn't refuse to compete at Dunsfold at all. They have refuted Clarkson's claims. But in all honesty I think a request for customer cars is perfectly reasonable in light of Ferrari's past and certainly a long way from bottling out. In fact submitting a customer car is as far from bottling out as it gets. If they win at Dunsfold in a factory car, the muppets of Fchat will accuse them of cheating anyway, even though Ferrari were the ones who insisted on factory cars and McLaren wanted to use customer cars. This is just the way Ferrari spin.

You don't seem to actually understand what cheating is. Cheating is using non-standard, non-option tyres, like the Huayra's cut slicks. The Huracan's Trofeo Rs at Willow Springs were also technically a cheat because they're not a Huracan option in any country, although not on par with what Pagani did, or the various Ferrari tyre options in the past.

 

[Rolf]

The 918 isn't particularly quick to 200mph, that's why, after 165mph it only has ~450hp/ton and 745hp. The M600 is much faster than the 918 from 150-200mph. A 650S isn't much slower either. You can clearly see in the Autocar head-to-head that the P1 walks on the 918 after 150mph, >6s faster 150-200mph. Same day, same weather.

Emu I have said this before that the Autocar figure to 200mph for the 918 was absolute hogwash, that test was rigged for sure or their timing gear on the 918 bombed out. How can so many other magazines get 19 to 20 sec to 300km/h (AMUS, AS, AZ) using the exact same test car as Autocar and even QR did just over 20sec with a non-Weissach model? With that sort of acceleration rate it wont taper off by another 10sec to 322km/h, no way unless you had to put a hurricane wind against it! We have all showed you a video from AS actually showing the 918 accelerate to 333km/h indicated in 25sec. The M600 won't stand a chance against a 918 up to 200mph and the 650S is more than 6sec slower than the 918 to 300km/h (as per AS/AZ) and its top speed is higher than the 650S (345km/h against 330km/h), so to 200mph it will be more than 10sec behind Porsche for sure.

Here are some extracts from Autocar roadtest figures of the M600 and to compare against the Porsche, to 150mph it is 3.1sec slower and to 180mph, it is 4sec slower than the 918, so how can it catch it to 200mph? Using interpolation of the acceleration rate from 180mph to 200mph and calculating the 0-300km/h time of the M600 will be about 24.7sec, which already is more than 5sec behind what the 918 has done in 3 road tests.

Bugatti Veyron SS vs Noble M600


Autocar Dry Handling Track: 1:08.50 / 1:10.5
Autocar Wet Handling Track: 1:11.6 / 1:16.5

Acceleration (Dry + Windy / 6 degrees C):

0 - 60 mph: 2.6s / 3.5s
0 - 100 mph: 5s / 6.8s
0 - 150 mph: 10.2s / 14s
0 - 180 mph: 16.2s / 22.2s
0 - 200 mph: 22.2s / 29.8s
0 - 210 mph: 26s / - 0 - 220 mph: 31.1s / -

Standing 1/4 Mile: 10.1s @ 147.9mph / 11s @ 131.1mph

 

[Unotaz]

Keep it coming EMU with your made up facts!

Here is the OFFICIAL Vbox data from Motor Trend:

918 Spyder – 4 laps in total:
1. Warm up lap – 2.01.30;
2. Charging lap – 1.44;
3. Record lap – 1.29.89!
4. Last lap – 1.30.76.

P1 – 8 laps in total:
1. Warm up – 1.54;
2. Charging – 1.42;
3. Record attempt – 1.31.67;
4. Charging – 1.43!!!;
5. Record lap – 1.30.71;
6. Charging – 1.41!!!
7. Record attempt – 1.31.07;
8. Final lap – 1.54

As you can see, even on the second consecutive fast lap, the 918 is only 0.05s off of the P1's best lap, and that was with a full re-charge lap for the P1's best attempt. Once again, I will mention "THIS IS THE OFFICIAL DATA FROM MOTOR TREND."

Another FACT, as confirmed by Carlos Lagos on Redit, the 918 used 1 set of tires and the P1 used 2 sets of tires.

 

[Emu]

Emu I have said this before that the Autocar figure to 200mph for the 918 was absolute hogwash, that test was rigged for sure or their timing gear on the 918 bombed out.

Right..... This is a lot simpler than you think. Above 165mph the 918 has roughly 764hp and the same PWR as a 650S and that front diff still needs to be driven by the wheels. The P1 has 903hp and a 33% higher PWR and no mechanical diff to drive, hence less parasitic losses.

How can so many other magazines get 19 to 20 sec to 300km/h (AMUS, AS, AZ) using the exact same test car as Autocar and even QR did just over 20sec with a non-Weissach model?

Different conditions, I've no idea but the Autocar test was perfectly legitimate and not rigged. The surface was poor and cost both cars about 1.5s from 0-150mph though, P1 probably worse affected due to RWD. As Autocar mentioned before, they average times both ways rather than testing with the wind. Given typically shitty British weather this often means times will be hampered by high winds that always hinder far more than they help at higher speeds. Think about this, the P1 is just lighter and has more power, far more power over 165mph, it also forgoes diff losses.

With that sort of acceleration rate it wont taper off by another 10sec to 322km/h, no way unless you had to put a hurricane wind against it! We have all showed you a video from AS actually showing the 918 accelerate to 333km/h indicated in 25sec. The M600 won't stand a chance against a 918 up to 200mph and the 650S is more than 6sec slower than the 918 to 300km/h (as per AS/AZ) and its top speed is higher than the 650S (345km/h against 330km/h), so to 200mph it will be more than 10sec behind Porsche for sure.

It takes a Mclaren F1 8.8s from 180-200mph with 560hp/ton and next to no drag relative to these downforce producing cars. As for indicated speeds, unless you know a lot about errors around 200mph for that model, you need to be really careful. A Huracan can do 0-300kph in 20s indicated, in reality it takes nearly 30s. That's with a measured output of 631hp and 420hp/ton in the Autobild test. Think it produces less downforce than the 918 too? 918 has 756hp above 165mph and 458hp/ton. That roughly makes in an F12 above 165mph. That takes 23.7s 0-300kph.

Here are some extracts from Autocar roadtest figures of the M600 and to compare against the Porsche, to 150mph it is 3.1sec slower and to 180mph, it is 4sec slower than the 918, so how can it catch it to 200mph? Using interpolation of the acceleration rate from 180mph to 200mph and calculating the 0-300km/h time of the M600 will be about 24.7sec, which already is more than 5sec behind what the 918 has done in 3 road tests.

Bugatti Veyron SS vs Noble M600


Autocar Dry Handling Track: 1:08.50 / 1:10.5
Autocar Wet Handling Track: 1:11.6 / 1:16.5

Acceleration (Dry + Windy / 6 degrees C):

0 - 60 mph: 2.6s / 3.5s
0 - 100 mph: 5s / 6.8s
0 - 150 mph: 10.2s / 14s
0 - 180 mph: 16.2s / 22.2s
0 - 200 mph: 22.2s / 29.8s
0 - 210 mph: 26s / - 0 - 220 mph: 31.1s / -

Standing 1/4 Mile: 10.1s @ 147.9mph / 11s @ 131.1mph

Dude you've quoted the Veyron SS.

 

[Emu]

Keep it coming EMU with your made up facts!

Here is the OFFICIAL Vbox data from Motor Trend:

918 Spyder – 4 laps in total:
1. Warm up lap – 2.01.30;
2. Charging lap – 1.44;
3. Record lap – 1.29.89!
4. Last lap – 1.30.76.

P1 – 8 laps in total:
1. Warm up – 1.54;
2. Charging – 1.42;
3. Record attempt – 1.31.67;
4. Charging – 1.43!!!;
5. Record lap – 1.30.71;
6. Charging – 1.41!!!
7. Record attempt – 1.31.07;
8. Final lap – 1.54

As you can see, even on the second consecutive fast lap, the 918 is only 0.05s off of the P1's best lap, and that was with a full re-charge lap for the P1's best attempt. Once again, I will mention "THIS IS THE OFFICIAL DATA FROM MOTOR TREND."

Another FACT, as confirmed by Carlos Lagos on Redit, the 918 used 1 set of tires and the P1 used 2 sets of tires.

Hopefully we will get Treynor's take on this because his story refutes this. Given that they used 2 sets of tyres, it's clear this isn't the full data in its entirety though.

 

[boyko23]

This is the official consequence of the laps made. We are not talking about the gaps b/w them for tweaks and tyre changes...

 

[Emu]

Here is Treynor's response:

http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-p1-f1/21713-p1-vs-918-a-27.html#post598010

With respect, Treynor has said that it didn't. But it may be that they defaulted to this formula to keep it fair since the 918 couldn't maintain its pace.

I not only stated that it did not, I posted telemetry demonstrating as much.

 

[Rolf]

Dude you've quoted the Veyron SS.

You just don't get it do you DUDE? I extracted the Veyron vs M600 data as well to add in another important comparison for perspective purpose that the Veyron makes mince meat of the P1 and 918 above 150mph.

You personally have got some incredible childish obsession with the P1 that you so honorably defend all its weaknesses. It is a fantastic car for sure, I really do like the P1 alot, but so many people including myself have pointed out that the 918 has proved to be a much better opponent to the P1 than all of us and McLaren could have ever imagined. In track comparisons it has proved the equal of the P1 and as well as even better than the P1 in a few comparisons. In honesty the P1 has been a disappointment as its over hyped performance claims have never been matched and its boasting about its incredible downforce aiding its track ability has not been well proven when a car that doesn't have such downforce (918) as been just as quick and even quicker on any track the magazines will want to compare. In performance terms the 918 and P1 are an equal match. I honestly think Ferrari won't want to bring a LaFerrari for proper track and performance comparisons with both 918 and P1 cause they fear their car won't win and actually be beaten by both these wonderful hypercars.

 

[kingjr9000]

You just don't get it do you DUDE? I extracted the Veyron vs M600 data as well to add in another important comparison for perspective purpose that the Veyron makes mince meat of the P1 and 918 above 150mph.

You personally have got some incredible childish obsession with the P1 that you so honorably defend all its weaknesses. It is a fantastic car for sure, I really do like the P1 alot, but so many people including myself have pointed out that the 918 has proved to be a much better opponent to the P1 than all of us and McLaren could have ever imagined. In track comparisons it has proved the equal of the P1 and as well as even better than the P1 in a few comparisons. In honesty the P1 has been a disappointment as its over hyped performance claims have never been matched and its boasting about its incredible downforce aiding its track ability has not been well proven when a car that doesn't have such downforce (918) as been just as quick and even quicker on any track the magazines will want to compare. In performance terms the 918 and P1 are an equal match. I honestly think Ferrari won't want to bring a LaFerrari for proper track and performance comparisons with both 918 and P1 cause they fear their car won't win and actually be beaten by both these wonderful hypercars.

I actually think the laf would win in a comparo

 

[gtaqv]

There seems to be many people paranoid with the extreme tuning that ferrari's done with the 360 and all their cars for press tests...

I've watched the 360 doing well in many tests, certainly if ferrari could discreetly tune the 0-100mph time by 2 seconds (as CH sugested) on a NA engine with already 110hp/liter they must have had access to very powerful dark magic...

Even if the press 360 was tuned, to enable a 2 seconds, the customer car had to be in very bad shape, or the tester did poor job...


here's i video of the 360 confronting a few rivals on the other side of the world (measurements table @21:22):


Considering for instance that, in this test, it has beaten the gt3CS (on the 400m and 1000m) which as 19hp less (381hp) but is lighter than the 360, the 360 seems to live to the expectations...

 

[lbonu1967]

LaF

LaFe 1.500 Kgs Kerb?

Yes

 

[gtaqv]

We might not have the top gear track test with the 918, p1 and laferrari as soon as we thought...

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/03/12/bbc-cancel-top-gear-season-clarkson-fracas-report/

 

[lbonu1967]

It's the only thing it can be. The brakes are powerful enough to lock the wheels, downforce is there aplenty and the tyres are sticky enough. Nothing else it can be. Having actually watched the P1 at Dunsfold compared to Treynor's car, this issue may even be specific to his car??? Note squirelling under braking on Treynor's car

The car had squirelling also when accelerating and this could be due to few factor. Waiting for MT Video. You tend to count your chickens before they're hatched.

Sorry but that's typical Fchat garbage. It's all here:

http://www.topgearbox.com/2015/news/why-well-never-see-a-true-laferrari-lap-time-2/

How come McLaren never had any problems with MT testing a customer car? Basically Ferrari are never going to allow a loss and they know that with Trofeo Rs the P1 has a good chance of beating the LaFerrari, regardless of like-for-like tyre performance, they also know that the 918 has a good chance on a track like Dunsfold. They will use the Huayra tyre trick as a minimum. Apparently a football playing a long time ago went to play in Italy, when he came back he was introduced diving to the national league for the first time.

You have serious problem to discuss about cars, now do you want to switch to
football ?
Do you always like to loose EMU ?
I hope laferrari EVO Anglesey video will be released soon and you will go hiding in Greenland because a customer LaF with use PZCS lapped faster than P1 press car. Lol

The McLaren 12C was on PZeros at Bedford against a 458 on MPSS, it then switched to an equal tyre (Corsa System) and there was nothing in it. It then went on to most other tracks and destroyed the 458.

Having said the Pzero corsa is a streetable Track & Competition tires so superior on track to the MPSS you are mixing apples with bananas using old 458 lap times and in different days

Some day same conditions one vs one :
EVO (Bedford) 458 faster
Fifth gear (Dunsfold on reverse) 458 Faster
Auto express (Anglesey) 458 faster
Car (Rockingham International) : 458 Faster
R&T (Spring Mountain) : 458 faster
What else Emu ?

Or the variable track conditions are good only when they suit to you ?

The fact is that the 918 tyres are very bespoke. Randy knows the difference between effects caused by the car and effects caused by tyre and he said there was nothing in it.

Most of your CoG arguments have been bollox too. The P1's battery comprises about 5% of its overall weight with a driver. Every single other part of the 95% sits lower in Race mode than it is in the 918. The engine sits lower and is shorter in height, the e-motor sits lower, the transmission sits lower, the axles sit lower, the wheels sit lower, the tyres sit lower, the seats are lower, the driver is lower, the tub is lower, the body is lower. So that battery you keep pointing out would have to be suspended several feet about the roof to make the P1's CoG higher than the 918's.

The 918 tyres are the same of the 991 gt3. Deal with it.
keep tryng to lower the CoG of the P1 but take in count that CoG height of a F1 car is around 0,25 m to the ground.
Taking Treynor P1 kerb weight and a 70 kg driver alone you need 0,185 m CoG height to pull 2g and 600 kg of downforce. At max load you meed 0.145 m height.
McLaren BS is under the sun, RD is accustomed to lying.
See Alonso recent crash.

 

[lbonu1967]

From McLaren life (Mycroft)

<< I'm not seeing how the lack of a mechanical LSD is a disadvantage under braking. That actually leaves you more free to control the rotation speed of each wheel in the optimal manner surely. It's certainly not a disadvantage under acceleration >>

LSD or better a locking differential distribuites torque both when it's accelerating torque than braking torque. That's means under heavy braking the excess of braking torque could be distribuited to the other wheel instead to have ABS intervention = less braking distance
Locking percentage could be different between accelaration and braking phase.
The E-diff Ferrari permits a 100%-0 / 0 - 100% distribuition both accelarting than braking