8 Series OPINION: The new BMW 8 Series - Is it "Special" Enough?

[rollo]

Oooo... interesting and controversial statement. I guess it all depends on who's looking...

I'm a sucker for the looks of both cars but I know for a fact that the DB11's design hasn't been universally well-received and the LC500 (whilst marvelous for me) is definitely polarising and doesn't appeal to all.
If anything the 8 Series has the broader spread...

Very interesting take on these cars style wise. To me, the LC500 looks edgy, not necessarily "special". The Aston's do look special to me including the DB11. Yesterday, I looked through a ton of reviews and videos on the LC500 and came away thinking that the 8 was the better design (exterior) to the eyes, albeit more conservative. The LC500 interior did look special however. I also was surprised by the $100K price point in the states for the LC. It may be a small market, but the 8 could surprise us.

 

[hoffmeister_fan]

This whole thing about specialness...how would you define what is special or not? It's like whether a car has soul...what are the parameters for that? The kind of noise it makes? It's lineage? On the scale of subjectivity and objectivity, this specialness is incredibly subjective.

If I were to look at it objectively....
premium powertrain - check (I would love a "check" emji right about now)
premium materials - check
premium construction - check, but I wish they did employ more CF
unique design within its own line-up - check (I mean, BMW, like any other carmaker is not going to make different controls for HVAC, infotainment, miscellany)
premium driving experience - check
premium badge - check
premium placing on the upper end - check

So from an objective assessment: it's provides sporty GT experience with a premium ambience. It occupies the harder edged end of the GT spectrum as determined by it's more performance-focused dynamics and exterior design and its driver-focused interior. I think it will provide a special driving experience.

All that said, I've been pondering what I'd do if I had the money for something in this price bracket. As I said, I would probably make a bee-line to my nearest Porsche dealer and plunk down that cash for 911. And if I were a particularly privileged to afford a GT3, that's what I'd want. But if I'd want something more cosseting, I'd be happy with Carrera 4.

But another choice which I thing would fit right in this GT category in all but name: the Giulia Quadrifoglio. It has the space with a 4 usable seats and trunk space to do cross-continental excursions. It has the coupe-like presence. It has the punch to be a spirited driver, but it can be less hard-edged in the most comfortable driving setting and with normal bucket seats. It makes a wonderful noise. The interior material has some faults that I could overlook for its other attributes. The only thing it doesn't have is consistency with being a reliable car. And that last point is something I have difficulty overlooking as I've read enough stories to make me fearful of it. If they could address those reliability/safety issues and spruce up the interior, particularly that dreadful center console, for their facelift, this would be an ideal GT car.

 

[Matski]

If I were to look at it objectively....
premium powertrain - check
premium materials - check
premium construction - check, but I wish they did employ more CF
unique design within its own line-up - check (I mean, BMW, like any other carmaker is not going to make different controls for HVAC, infotainment, miscellany)
premium driving experience - check
premium badge - check
premium placing on the upper end - check

I think most of those things being classifiable as "premium" are simply a reflection of things costing more. That alone to me wouldn't equal special. What would make that premium powertrain be a special one? what about those premium materials would make them special?... etc etc.

Cars are a collection of parts made to a specification, assembled to a specification. Something about that specification needs to tick the special box, simply being to lower tolerance, or higher cost isn't enough to do it in my opinion. I think you can look to examples such as the Phantom's gallery feature for an indication of what would far enough from the norm to be considered truly special. There's an element of uniqueness, something that's not 'the norm' required for something to be special - but that's just my opinion of course.

 

[Tarek]

Given this topic has grown around whether or not BMW can sell cars at the 100k mark, I'm not sure introducing *more* models in that range, and directly targeting the family that is the de facto choice within the upper segments is the best idea, especially in such a niche area. If you want to offer the same thing Mercedes do, you've got to out Mercedes Mercedes, which is just asking for trouble, instead, keeping some differentiators is probably a good idea IMHO.

Well BMW and MB both has and still in a race to fill every marker segment possible to win the sales crown so IMO BMW should reinforce itself as a true rival to MB and introduce a full size luxury coupe based on the 7er and let M division handle AMG.

 

[Sunny]

I don't think that something as raw and focused as E46 CSL needs to represent the total and only embodiment of what makes BMWs special to drive as road cars in daily use. I can recall more than a handful of non-M car BMWs which I drove on the road and thought that they were a pretty special drive. An E39 528i was one such example, as were the E46 330i an...

No arguments there. I don't doubt there are quite a few BMWs from the E39/E46 era and before (and probably a few after) that offered a special driving experience for the segment it belonged in. I was talking about the absolute epitome of that experience - something that makes it "100k special". Something that makes you not just spend 100k, but makes you feel good doing it. IMHO, focusing on driving experience rather than luxury is the path of least resistance for BMW to successfully sell a 100k car.

Specialness, I guess, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

The perception of "specialness" will always be subjective.

Indeed, it is personal. For me personally, on the luxury side, except for a Phantom or a Mulsanne, I don't think there are many truly special cars, not even S class - they are dime a dozen here and look like every other Merc. Funny enough, an Alpina B7 might be closest in my books to a normal luxury car being "special".

Would they be M4 GTS customers?

I don't know, the M4 GTS just didn't do much for me. But that is just me, I am sure others think different. I also think making a car very limited to justify the price tag, is a little bit cheating.

 

[Matski]

I also think making a car very limited to justify the price tag, is a little bit cheating.

I 100% agree. There's economies of scale to consider of course as well as the realities of production logistics, but generally speaking I think it's silly and is a direct insult to customers... one of the worst cases I can think of this recently are the Maybach S650 Cabriolet and G Class Landaulet.

Funny enough, an Alpina B7 might be closest in my books to a normal luxury car being "special".

Certainly re-winding the clock a few decades when Alpina offered different solutions and options to BMW's product portfolio I'd class them as special... an E34 M5 was an M5, but a B10 Bi-Turbo seemed so much more exotic... A different engine solution, lower volume, more hand crafting. An E36 M3 was an M3... A B8 4.6 Coupe was the V8 coupe that BMW implied couldn't be done... yet Alpina did it... I still love Alpina greatly, but even I'd have to say that their recent offerings lack something to make them truly unique... and therefore properly 'special'.

 

[KiwiRob]

Why?

Because BMW played it safe and conservative, there's not wow factor, it's just a big coupe, whereas the Lexus and Aston have put the wow factor into these designs. I saw my first LC the other day, I had to stop, pull over and have a good look, it's a very sexy car, it really grabs your attention.

 

[KiwiRob]

Oooo... interesting and controversial statement. I guess it all depends on who's looking...

If anything the 8 Series has the broader spread...

That's because BMW played it safe and built a very conservative looking coupe, IMO coupes need to grab you by the balls and give you a little squeeze, they need to get the pulse running, you've got to be excited by them. BMW built the catalogue model of coupes, Lexus build a supermodel.

 

[braaf]

Because BMW played it safe and conservative, there's not wow factor, it's just a big coupe, whereas the Lexus and Aston have put the wow factor into these designs. I saw my first LC the other day, I had to stop, pull over and have a good look, it's a very sexy car, it really grabs your attention.

The Lexus yes, it's a very visually appealing car but the Aston (OH HELL NAH). That's a car to forget for Aston Martin, it looks like one of those terrible hot wheels toy cars. And that's still doesn't explain what makes them special.

Example, I absolutely love the Mazda CX5 (really shitty example i know) and think it's one of the hottest looking cars on the road today, but that doesn't qualify it as special.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

The thread title is "is the 8 Series special ENOUGH", not "is it special".

 

[braaf]

The thread title is "is the 8 Series special ENOUGH", not "is it special".

And your point is?

 

[SKY]

@Sunny your thoughts to me indicate you have just tasted something more extreme than what BMW has to offer, and you simply would not go back to the previous recipe. Maybe I am ready too much into it. Since you drive two driver focused Porsches, what a 100k 8er offers might fall short to you. And probably to many others who would expect a 100k BMW to offer a similar experience to that of the M cars of the 90s, with elevated to an even higher level.

BMW would probably answer that the market has changed and it has to cover so many different areas to reach to the clients of your likes.

Just my 2 cents

 

[dalab]

Expanding the response, being special enough is very subjective and it is a merit that is earned by hand and above all if it passes the test of time as did the first 8 series, which in its time was also discussed the high price, the lack of clarity between being a sports car or a GT or a super luxury coupe, but it stood the test of time and despite all these "failures" it became an indisputable icon.
Being special enough means working the image in addition to the vehicle itself.

1- Decendant of the iconic 8 Series of the 90s
2- Derived from the M8 GTE car racing and not the reverse (which of his first four races already win two)
3- First aprouch to the new design language that will govern the entire brand which is very risky
4- Cutting-edge technology with a number of innovations.
5- Carbon core, Carbon roof etc etc.
6- The announced figures make it appear that it left its competitors in the dust, all more powerful and almost all competitors cost more money.
7- This new advertising campaign that came to light yesterday driving it on the canals of Venice is the work of a company that will not accept that this is not a special enough vehicle.

Take the liberty to add more points to this list than I have forgotten.
I think they are enough arguments to say conscientiously that is sufficiently special, and with all the work that is behind, comparisons will come and I think they will be very positive for what is known so far, of course in the end only the time will say, I bet it is more special than enough, because when things are done well and with this passion there are no half measures.

Botton line: I still do not understand why we are discussing something so obvious

 

[Matski]

2- Derived from the M8 GTE car racing and not the reverse (which of its first four races and won two)

I appreciate that the race car hit the track before the road car was unveiled, but the race car was developed from the road car. Had it been the other way around BMW would not have been requesting waivers to fundamentally alter the proportions of the race car from the road car, for example.

Sadly, the M8 is not a built for homologation purposes car like the M1 was.

 

[dalab]

I appreciate that the race car hit the track before the road car was unveiled, but the race car was developed from the road car. Had it been the other way around BMW would not have been requesting waivers to fundamentally alter the proportions of the race car from the road car, for example.

Sadly, the M8 is not a built for homologation purposes car li...

Marquardt Interview Development BMW M8 GTE

Does the joint development mean that the BMW M8 GTE is more similar to its production counterpart than any other BMW race car?
Marquardt: “When you look at the regulations, the engine in the BMW M6 GT3 is extremely close to that in the production model. However, we were able to make more dramatic changes to the chassis. In the case of the BMW M8 GTE, the chassis is closer to the production model, but the engine had to be modified significantly. The most important thing is that we based the BMW M6 GT3 on an existing car. That was different this time. Because the race car will be in action before the production car, we worked intensively with the design department from a very early point to ensure that were on the same page when it came to the design. That worked very well.”

 

[Matski]

Marquardt Interview Development BMW M8 GTE

Does the joint development mean that the BMW M8 GTE is more similar to its production counterpart than any other BMW race car?
Marquardt: “When you look at the regulations, the engine in the BMW M6 GT3 is extremely close to that in the production model. However, we were able to make more dramatic changes...

That doesn't explicitly support the statement you made. The M6 was in service well before the GT3 car hit the track, the opposite is true of the M8 and GTE, that's what Jens is clarifying. Had the race car genuinely come first, then the road going M8 would/will have 100mm less height in the body. IMSA's decision not to grant the technical waiver to allow BMW to reduce the car body height by 100mm would indicate they were attempting to modify something that already existed, or else they'd have simply made the top half of the cars profile lower rather than try and mess with the structural bits underneath (which is what the waiver was for). The race car had its first roll out in July 2017, 6 months later than planned because of this issue. Spy shots of the 8-er road car hit the web in September 2016, which means the design freeze was likely 2015. There's simply no way you design a race car, and then build a road car with that timescale, and you certainly don't build a chassis that then relies on waivers to even race. As for the engine, the only reason why the engine is more highly modified this time around is because BMW don't have an engine that complies with the rules otherwise, it will be interesting to see if the M8 uses a modified 4 litre one as the race car does, or if it will use the standard 4.4 litre one.

I'm not saying no consideration was given to the race car during the road car development, but the road car was not derived from the race car - it's marketing spin.

 

[dalab]

That doesn't explicitly support the statement you made. The M6 was in service well before the GT3 car hit the track, the opposite is true of the M8 and GTE, that's what Jens is clarifying. Had the race car genuinely come first, then the road going M8 would/will have 100mm less height in the body. IMSA's decision not to grant the technical waiver to a...

What you indicate seems to be correct, but without detriment of that, it is clear (says the manager of the team), that there is a joint development in certain important aspects, which is much more than what other vehicles in this class can say.

It is clear that marketing team will magnify this fact to the fullest, much more if they are already winning races (Enzo Ferrari said about the Formula One "If you win on Sunday you sell on Monday") well for them to do it because that's what they are for.
What brings me back to the point of looking at the big picture and the brief list of reasons or arguments I made about what makes a new model more or less special, the 8 series has more ingredients than most to be

 

[Matski]

What you indicate seems to be correct, but without detriment of that, it is clear (says the manager of the team), that there is a joint development in certain important aspects, which is much more than what other vehicles in this class can say.

It is clear that marketing team will magnify this fact to the fullest, much more if they are already winning races (Enzo Ferrari said about the Formula One "If you win on Sunday you sell on Monday" well for them to do it because that's what they are for).
What brings me back to the point of looking at the big picture and the brief list of reasons or arguments I made about what makes a new model more or less special, the 8 series has more ingredients than most to be

I get what you're saying, and track to road evolution ticks the boxes for me in terms of "special-ness", and there aren't many cars that achieve that in this price range. Cars like the SCG003 and Ford GT are much better examples, but they are of course much more expensive. If the M8 GTE helps you think of the 8-er as being more special fine, I'm not going to say you are wrong - but it's worth remembering that most motorsport directors will reel off any marketing stuff they're asked to if it helps justify their budgets!

 

[M.N.D]

I want to see if the M8 will really have a transaxle drivetrain, because Jens said that before the start of Daytona earlier this year...

 

[CrunchSlaughtered]

I want to see if the M8 will really have a transaxle drivetrain, because Jens said that before the start of Daytona earlier this year...

Transaxle or not transaxle, this is the question. If eventually it turns out to be so, then the moderators should just have to close this threat with the clear answer "yes it is"