Panamera [Official] Porsche Panamera


The Porsche Panamera is a mid to full-sized luxury car (E-segment or F-segment for LWB in Europe) manufactured and marketed by Porsche. The Panamera name, as with the Carrera name, is derived from the Carrera Panamericana race.
Martin: I have a tech question for you, I heard or read somewhere that there is a trade off between torque and HP, if want more Torque/L you'll have to go for lower HP/L, how correct is that ? And how can BMW/Porsche/Audi/Ferrari .. etc break those limits ?
 
It's interesting they didn't use the Audi sourced 3.0, 333hp supercharged V6. That engine, coupled with an electric motor goes in the new Touareg Hybrid, so I guess it will wind up in Cayenne Hybrid and most likely the inevitable Panamera Hybrid. Why have two V6 engines in the lineup? Or will Porsche eschew the Audi V6 in favor of this one for the hybrids?
I must say, this new V6 from Porsche would be my preference, since it almost matches the Audi version in terms of hp and torque (300 hp vs 333hp, 400nm vs 440nm), yet does this without FI. Slap a supercharger or low-lag turbos on it and I can see it being in the S version of Panamera/Cayenne by the time of facelift, instead of the current V8.
 
Foxfire, maybe it is a very similar engine just sans supercharger and with a longer stroke? 90 degree V6 with direct fuel injection... maybe Porsche could've leveraged from the S4's engine as a base?

Only time will tell...
 
Since Martin didn't see my questen I will answer it my own :D


Torque vs. Horsepower

If you've been around motorized vehicles for any length of time, you have probably been exposed to the great torque vs. power debate at some point. If not, it goes like this:

"Torque is what makes a car accelerate, not power."

"Wrong."

Torque and power are inescapably linked by the fact that horsepower equals torque (in ft-pounds) times RPM divided by 5250, so people who talk as if they are independent are full of it. If you have a given torque curve for an engine, you have the horsepower curve also. Knowing how these two numbers work with each other lets you can poke through some of the BS you might read.

First, as usual, a few definitions.

Torque is a twisting force applied to an object, like a wheel or a crankshaft. Note that motion is not required for torque to exist! If you stand on a lug wrench that is on a frozen lug bolt, you are applying a torque to that bolt even though there may be no movement. For our purposes, we will consider that torque is measured in pounds-force feet (lbf-ft) meaning the equivalent of a given force, in pounds, acting on the end of a lever of length in feet. For example, standing with 180 pounds body weight on a lug wrench one foot long yields 180 lbf-ft of torque. A child of 90 pounds standing on a two-foot lug wrench applies the same torque.

Work is the application of force over a distance. Unfortunately, the units used are the same (pounds times feet) but we write this as ft-lb just to distinguish it. The real difference is that in this case, the "feet" part means feet of movement. If you push on a car with 100 pounds of force and maintain that for 30 feet, you have done 3000 ft-lb of work. An easier example is lifting a weight (in pounds) a given distance (in feet). If you use some sort of mechanical advantage, like a winch, you will do the same amount of work because by halving the effort required, you will have to double the distance through which you apply the force to achive the same objective.

Power is the application of work within a finite time. 550 ft-lb of work in one second is one horsepower.

So, let's first go through the numbers to get from torque to horsepower. Pushing with 87.5 pounds (force) on the end of our 1-foot lug wrench applies a torque of 87.5 lbf-ft. No motion yet, so no work and no power. But now let's say the lug bolt loosens slightly and starts to turn, but that same 87.5 pounds of force is needed to keep the wrench turning. For every revolution of the wrench, you are applying 87.5 pounds of force over a distance of (2 * pi * 1 foot) or 6.28 feet, the circumference of the circle that your hand is making, for a total of 550 ft-lb of work. It's only when this system is actually moving that work is being performed. From here, it's a quick step to say that if you work fast enough to turn that wrench once per second, then you are doing 550 ft-lb of work per second, which means you are applying one horsepower.

By the definitions we can see that HP is directly proportional to torque and RPM. "Directly proportional" means there may be a multiplyer involved, so let's find it using our example numbers, remembering that 1 revolution per second is 60 RPM:

torque * RPM * constant = hp

87.5 lbf-ft * 60 rev/min * X = 1 hp

X = 1 / (60 * 87.5) = 1/5250

torque * RPM * 1/5250 = hp

hp = (torque * RPM) / 5250

For internal combustion engines, torque is always given at a certain RPM because they can't generate any torque when they aren't moving. Once they are running fast enough to sustain their own operation, the force that they are exerting against a load can be measured, and the speed at which they are turning can be measured, so the torque (and therefore power) numbers become known.

So, if there is such a fixed relationship between torque and power, why do some people say that a certain engine has lots of power, but no torque? Remember that the connection between torque and power is rotational speed. A sportbike motor might generate 150hp at 14,000 RPM but the torque at that RPM is very small; about 53 ft-lbs. In comparison, a large-displacement twin might peak at 100 hp at 7000 RPM. The torque applied at the twin's 7000 rpm, 75 ft-lbs, is greater than the torque applied at the sport bike's 14,000 rpm but the sport bike makes up for it with a lot more engine speed and ends up with more horsepower.

The street, though, complicates things because the sport bike will probably not be ridden at 14,000 RPM. At 5000 RPM, the twin would likely have more power. This is an artificial handicap; the sport bike wasn't meant to be ridden at that speed since it generates its power by sending the RPM part of the equation sky-high. For street riding, the twin is easier to ride, less prone to stalling as you pull away from a light, and you get that satisfying "oomph" when you twist the throttle. But as the RPM increases, the twin runs out of breath and the race bike, although the torque is low and probably getting lower, continues to make more and more power until it hits its peak at 14000.

[Insert dyno charts for comparison showing less torque but more power for sportbikes at high RPM]

Engines are designed for their intended use. Our twins are designed to yield fairly high torque values at low RPM, because this makes them easy to ride in day-to-day life, and Harley-Davidsons have their torque concentrated even lower in the RPM range than BMWs do. Low-end torque is accomplished by several design traits, one being small valves and intake tubes which create high air velocity into the cylinder for good fuel mix at low speed.

Those effects tend to become a restriction at high RPM, which means that engines intended for high RPM end up with larger valves, larger air intakes, smaller cylinders and other things that let them continue to breathe when other engines start to gasp. Race bike engines have fairly small displacement, which limits the torque that can be produced at the crank. They apply that torque at much higher speeds to get high horsepower (and who can argue that those bikes don't accelerate quickly?).

To a lesser extent, BMW varies these techniques for different bikes. The GS series has narrower intake tubes to give a faster intake charge, giving better fuel/air mixing and better torque at low RPM. Since this becomes a bottleneck at higher RPM, the "power" engine in the RS and RT bikes have larger intake tubes. Swapping the GS tubes into an RS or RT is a common retrofit, as it makes the bike torquier at low RPM where most of us ride. Newer technology in cars, like variable valve timing and variable intake tract length, can give motors the best of both worlds by increasing torque at higher RPM without giving it up at low RPM. Incidentally, Honda has variable valve timing on a motorcycle now.

But to get back to the main point, it is power that moves our bikes down the road. Yes, torque provides the pushing force through the drivetrain, but it needs to happen at some given speed, and those two factors define "power."

Why does torque drop after a certain RPM?

Torque starts to decrease because the engine cannot breathe as well. Due to the speed, the cylinder does not fill with air as well. A designer can get around this problem with "tuned intake" which sets up a resonance to pack the cylinder with air, but it only happens at a certain RPM. The next evolution of design is to make a variable system which packs the cylinders with air at all RPM; this is usually called "variable tuned intake runners" or something like that and involves valves which open and close to create a different size for the airbox and manifold.

Why does power continue to increase after torque decreases?

Remember that the power is essentially the product of the RPM and the torque. At first, decrease in torque is small and is not enough to offset the increasing RPM, so the overall product still increases. Eventually the decrease in torque becomes large enough that it outweighs the increase in RPM and we see the power start to drop. Because of this, the power peak will always be after the torque peak.
 
^^ Nice vid's thanx Sayyaaf. Never were a fan of the R8 styling wise...as a package including looks and practicality the Panny is my choice:usa7uh:

As said before, after my visit to Porsche Center JHB two weeks ago, the Panamera has HUGE presence and a sophisticated yet menacing stance. Not to mention it's a tour/techno de force! The Turbo's engine is just phenomenal, a real materpiece - pity I could not test drive one @ PC-JHB....

Have to visit the family in Al Ain to get behind the wheel of a certain Mr. S's Panamera:D
 
^ :)

In the Qatar drifting vid, it looks so easy. The steering input from the driver is minor and the car takes commanded direction so precisely. No effort, and under+oversteer looks to be so easy to handle, this car would make you feel the real Schumacher. Steering precision 'shrinks' the car even on the video whilst judging by the drivers body language, body roll looks non-existing!

Martin's analyses on the vid would be interesting...hallo, Martin?
 
Interestingly, for those who care, the 3.6 litre V6 in the Panamera is an all-new 90 degree V6 with direct injection and represents a distinct departure from the previous narrow-angle "VR" 3.6 litre sourced from VW.

400 Nm for a 3.6 litre, naturally aspirated V6 is bloody impressive. A nice, muscular engine that'll make for an amazingly enticing entry-point on the Cayenne mk2 in particular. It aslo, of course, does wonders for the appeal of the entry-level Panamera.

Does this mean that this 6 cyl will have dry-sump lubrication as other Porsche engines do?
 
Does this mean that this 6 cyl will have dry-sump lubrication as other Porsche engines do?

Unless the powerplant is slated for engine duty in a pwerformance orientated car, I'd be surprised if the has DSL. The Panamera/Panamera 4 is not fast enough to generate lateral forces powerful enough to disrupt the oil pan.
 
Unless the powerplant is slated for engine duty in a pwerformance orientated car, I'd be surprised if the has DSL. The Panamera/Panamera 4 is not fast enough to generate lateral forces powerful enough to disrupt the oil pan.

The S, 4S, and Turbo all use DSL, so apparently the Panamera can pull the Gs to necessitate it, and the 6-cyl should be able to do even more due to the lower weight.
 
Unless the powerplant is slated for engine duty in a pwerformance orientated car, I'd be surprised if the has DSL. The Panamera/Panamera 4 is not fast enough to generate lateral forces powerful enough to disrupt the oil pan.

Panamera S will be faster around a corner than the Turbo...

Martin's analyses on the vid would be interesting...hallo, Martin?

I can give mine: take an M5 or W212 E63 if you want to drift. It looks terrible in the Panny :D That car isn't made to drift at all.
 
Panamera S will be faster around a corner than the Turbo...

We're talking about the V6 Panny, not the S.

I guess it does have DSL in the event that someones does want to beat the hell of the car. There are plenty of videos showing how far people have pushed the Cayenne, and Porsche would probably not want to risk any of their engines collapsing if someone like Walter Rörhl gets their hands on it. Performance is alfter all the ethos of Porsche.
 
I can give mine: take an M5 or W212 E63 if you want to drift. It looks terrible in the Panny :D That car isn't made to drift at all.

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You were saying klier ? :D :D
 
Klier obviously didn't get enough sleep last night, thanks for reminding him;)
 

Porsche

Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, is a German automobile manufacturer specializing in high-performance sports cars, SUVs, and sedans, headquartered in Stuttgart, Baden-Württemberg, Germany. Owned by Volkswagen AG, it was founded in 1931 by Ferdinand Porsche. In its early days, Porsche was contracted by the German government to create a vehicle for the masses, which later became the Volkswagen Beetle. In the late 1940s, Ferdinand's son Ferry Porsche began building his car, which would result in the Porsche 356.
Official website: Porsche

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