E-Class (W213/C238/A238) Next E-class on a Severe Diet

[K-A]

Go drive a Chevy or Ford truck from the 80's or 90's and you'll never say that "Weight = Solidity" again, lol. Not only do those things weight over 5000 lbs, but they rattle apart, and they fold over on themselves when in crashes.

 

[Human]

Looks like Audi has lit a fire in the industry by being the first Luxo manufacturer to publicly state (and be commended for) and apply weight savings to their newest cars. While BMW is seemingly hiding lead and gold bricks in theirs, to provide shockingly high weight figures.

One has to wonder if these future lighter Benzes will have a side effect of feeling "too feathery and less substantial than older Benzes", or cutting down on the substantial/full feeling materials for the lightweight ones, etc. Gonna be interesting to witness the first ever decreased-weight cars. It had to happen sometime, and it finally is. Cars are getting outta hand. The E isn't even that heavy for a Luxury Sedan. The 5-Series' weight figures, on the other hand, are downright pathetic.

Whoa whoa whoa!

I just looked up weight figures.

E350 Sport: 3774
535i: 4030
A6 2.0 "2WD": 3891

Shockingly, the Benz is the lightest! More shocking, considering it has that "Heavy brick solid Benz look", while the other two strive to visually convey a more lightfooted nature. I don't doubt that M-B provides the most advanced construction of the trio already (surely more than the 5, while the Audi would give it a better run). Not only does its shell hold up better than the F10's in after crash pictures, but it's lighter. The W212 did win "Best Bodyshell" in 2009, when it came out, winning over the Audi R8, Jaguar XJ, amongst all others. So it shouldn't be surprising, but as a driver of it, it's nice.

I doubt it, my old W123 weighed roughly 3300 pounds and it felt like a tank when you drove it or slammed the doors. Same can be said about our past W201 and that was a tick under 3000 pounds. So long as Zetsche is around I suspect these new Mercedes will continue to feel like Mercs of the past...even when they shed some pounds.

Fact and figures highlighted, I am very surprised and kudos to Benz

You can get into any new car (entry and premium) of which the parent company and engineers concentrated on weight saving and you will experience some 'hollowness'.
In the new(er) construction methods and different materials as well as different strengths of steel used (as seen @ BMW Plant Rosslyn E90 production on my visit there) the 'heavy, solid and damped' feeling of the i.e. old E46 vs E90 has been 'watered down' or lets say that some of it has been lost. Don't get me wrong I surely know the body stiffness of the E90 is much better than that of the E46 and so is the passive safety, yet in 'feeling' and experience behind the wheel the lightness of lighter cars tends to be less insulating than the cars or models before.
That's why I am 100% in tune with K-A and bum-man, the 'heavy', solid and 'carved-out-of-granite' feel has not been lost in the newer and lighter Merc's and that says a lot about Daimler's construction methods and care of retaining THE feel.

 

[Omarus]

My friend, have you ever driven an american car of the 70s or 80s ? The solid feel has little to do with weight. Engineering is the key word!

No, i never drove american cars that old.
I wasn't saying that in every case heavy weight= solid feel. But in this case it may be directly related.
I have owned W140 and when it rained, nothing could be heard inside. On lighter W220 and W221 i can hear raindrops very clear.
Engeenihing could be very well connected to heavy weight.
Also, i'd like to remind you that WV (owners of "Bentley) had lighter A8 platfrom to use, they instead chose heavier platfrom of Phaeton, so don't talk like they had to invent something completely new for Bentley, they had two ready platfroms and chose heavier one, for such a small car (it's even smaller than CL) as Conti GT.

 

[Merc1]

That may be so, but the W221 is just as solid. What you're talking about is more likely sheetmetal thickness and the double glass the W140 had. Weight just doesn't equal solidity, not even with a Benz. The new SLK feels as sturdy as a bridge and it isn't nearly as heavy as the SL, which feel less solid by comparision.


M

 

[K-A]

Exactly, the heaviness of the W140's chassis had nothing to little to do with the solidity or insulation of the car. Nor does the F10's. Much of this weight is supplied by said chassis', and the bones and steels underneath the car. The glass thickness, sheetmetal thickness, and insulation padding (what would make a W140 purportedly quieter than a W220 or W221) are comparatively small beans in weight, although all car manufacturers are saving weight even in those areas for some time now.

And again, if someone thinks that "heavy steels are stronger than light steels" you're very mistaken, it's not always the case, especially nowadays, they're just cheaper. Look at a heavy W140 after a side impact, then look at a W221, the W221 will look like somebody nicked it probably, while the W140 would quicker show some cage deformation.

 

[kenai]

No, i never drove american cars that old.
I wasn't saying that in every case heavy weight= solid feel. But in this case it may be directly related.
I have owned W140 and when it rained, nothing could be heard inside. On lighter W220 and W221 i can hear raindrops very clear.
Engeenihing could be very well connected to heavy weight.
Also, i'd like to remind you that WV (owners of "Bentley) had lighter A8 platfrom to use, they instead chose heavier platfrom of Phaeton, so don't talk like they had to invent something completely new for Bentley, they had two ready platfroms and chose heavier one, for such a small car (it's even smaller than CL) as Conti GT.

in this case the platforms are the same.....perhaps the materials are different. VW would not do an exclusive platform for the Conti.

 

[klier]

Whoa whoa whoa!

I just looked up weight figures.

E350 Sport: 3774
535i: 4030
A6 2.0 "2WD": 3891

Shockingly, the Benz is the lightest! More shocking, considering it has that "Heavy brick solid Benz look", while the other two strive to visually convey a more lightfooted nature. I don't doubt that M-B provides the most advanced construction of the trio already (surely more than the 5, while the Audi would give it a better run). Not only does its shell hold up better than the F10's in after crash pictures, but it's lighter. The W212 did win "Best Bodyshell" in 2009, when it came out, winning over the Audi R8, Jaguar XJ, amongst all others. So it shouldn't be surprising, but as a driver of it, it's nice.

Congrats!

You just compared a 4 cylinder front wheel drive A6 to a 535i! Respect! The A6 2.0 FWD is much lighter indeed, but much crappier on ALL other levels too.
Also congrats on the bolded part. Very accurate and scientific. No fanboy comment at all!

I'll leave because this thread here is a real MB orgy

 

[Omarus]

That may be so, but the W221 is just as solid. What you're talking about is more likely sheetmetal thickness and the double glass the W140 had. Weight just doesn't equal solidity, not even with a Benz. The new SLK feels as sturdy as a bridge and it isn't nearly as heavy as the SL, which feel less solid by comparision. M

Isn't it related to weight directly? It does add extra weight. And double glass too.

 

[Merc1]

Isn't it related to weight directly? It does add extra weight. And double glass too.

Yeah it does add extra weight if you don't take some weight out somewhere else, but this weight doesn't automatically = solidity either. You can make a lightweight car as stiff as heavy car. Weight doesn't = solidity automatically.


M

 

[chonkoa]

I hope it is a better diet plan than BMW's diet plan.

 

[K-A]

Congrats!

You just compared a 4 cylinder front wheel drive A6 to a 535i! Respect! The A6 2.0 FWD is much lighter indeed, but much crappier on ALL other levels too.
Also congrats on the bolded part. Very accurate and scientific. No fanboy comment at all!

I'll leave because this thread here is a real MB orgy

How come everything is "fanboy this/that" here when somebody's touting one car over another.

I base this off of the fact that the 5-Series is not very advanced in construction. The weight is there simply because BMW cut costs and didn't want to/couldn't afford more advanced lightweight/high strength materials. The 5 is only slightly larger than the E, but comes in at a much higher weight, and as far as strength of the frame, I base this off of the E's Award Winning bodyshell, and the fact that it holds up much better than the F10 in terms of safety cage strength after a side impact, not to mention withstanding a massive 6,000 more lbs of load to the roof, all whilst being several hundred lbs lighter.

 

[Giannis]

Isn't it related to weight directly? It does add extra weight. And double glass too.

The strength is a function of the tensile strength of the material and the quantity of it. You can use more material of a certain strength, or less material of more strenght and get the same structural rigidity.

 

[Merc1]

How come everything is "fanboy this/that" here when somebody's touting one car over another.

I base this off of the fact that the 5-Series is not very advanced in construction. The weight is there simply because BMW cut costs and didn't want to/couldn't afford more advanced lightweight/high strength materials. The 5 is only slightly larger than the E, but comes in at a much higher weight, and as far as strength of the frame, I base this off of the E's Award Winning bodyshell, and the fact that it holds up much better than the F10 in terms of safety cage strength after a side impact, not to mention withstanding a massive 6,000 more lbs of load to the roof, all whilst being several hundred lbs lighter.

What klier was saying is that you compared an 4-cylinder Audi to a 6-cylinder BMW, and in this rare instant he has a more than valid point. The which one is safer, better built etc. not going to get into that one here. Klier's point was simple IMO, if you're going to compare weights then you should compare similar cars, 2012 4-cylinder 528i vs the A6 2.0T. Still think the BMW will be heavier though. For me personally its how it drives, no one thinks about how much a car weighs when driving it...if the dynamics are right or at least right for them.


M

 

[K-A]

I actually was surprised that the Audi is so heavy for a 2.0 FWD, but I guess the point from them is that it's lighter than the previous model. My main surprise was how light the M-B is, whilst of course not sacrificing any solidity (in fact, the same material selection that makes the car so light is what makes it so solid, i.e: Advanced). To me, it further proves from my own judgement and research, that the E is uses the most advanced materials and construction of the trio.... Which shouldn't be a surprise, as it's a Mercedes, which is back to true Mercedes form.

Dynamics are what are important, but with the F10, I think BMW had to go through GREAT lengths to instill some dynamics into a car that has been so hampered by such a heaviness. Imagine if BMW didn't make sacrifices into the cars materials/chassis/etc.

Driving an F10, however, you can feel that weight. To me, it felt like there's a BMW soul under a lot of heavy fluff. On one hand, the car rides luxuriously, and on the other, you can feel BMW vigorously trying to compensate for such ridiculous weight.

 

[chonkoa]

The strength is a function of the tensile strength of the material and the quantity of it. You can use more material of a certain strength, or less material of more strenght and get the same structural rigidity.

Don't forget geometry as well.

 

[klier]

What klier was saying is that you compared an 4-cylinder Audi to a 6-cylinder BMW, and in this rare instant he has a more than valid point.

Rare? You have to read more of my posts
And yeah, the BMW is still heavier with comparable engine, but it doesn't matter much as it's still the best to drive. K-A is trying to make it sound all bad for the 5-series, which is of course not the case. It handles like a charm

 

[SKY]

Rare? You have to read more of my posts
And yeah, the BMW is still heavier with comparable engine, but it doesn't matter much as it's still the best to drive. K-A is trying to make it sound all bad for the 5-series, which is of course not the case. It handles like a charm

But the 5er drives worse than the A6, according to the latest reviews, so weight does matter.

 

[klier]

It matters hugely, but the 5er still drives better

 

[K-A]

It depends on where you're coming from, in terms of the 5'er driving better. If you historically like the comfortable rides of M-B's, then the 5'er rides better than any previous 5'er (but still not as comfortable as an E-Class), if you like Sportiness though, then it doesn't drive better than the previous 5's, and not as sporty/good as the A6. It's the best medium ground, that's for sure, and it's not a good nor bad thing, just a different approach for BMW.

 

[klier]

Yeah, K-A, sure. An AWD or FWD A6 is sportier than the 5er The lower weight helps the A6 hugely I agree, but it's no magic potion. It's an Audi for crying out loud. Only the TT and R8 are sporty.