Motor Trend: BMW 535i vs Infinit M37S vs Lexus GS 350 F Sport vs Audi A6

[Kowalski]

Its really amazing how fast the new A6 3.0T is. It's seriously fast! So fast, that the S6 must be ridiculously fast? Any test of the S6 yet?

Nope and they haven't even announced the prices yet.

 

[VoltageLeak]

Yet in direct comparison with the A6 3.0T Quattro:
"On the other hand, the GS was tops in driver comfort, with better seats. Interior styling was beyond reproach, materials were princely, and the huge (12.3 inches) nav display  would’ve drawn raves from Mr. Magoo.
...In fact, four driven wheels with bigger footprints helped the Audi prevail in our instrumented testing. But it was a different story in the real world of blind corners and decreasing radii. On mountain roads, the Lexus was frisky and eager to attack corners, while the Audi felt like the two-tonner it is—deliberate and somewhat ponderous by comparison...the GS got our nod in subjective handling. More significant, check the fun-to-drive score."

The Lexus matched the A6 for Interior Fit/Finish and Interior Design.

Dissent within the ranks at C/D. It's hard to reconcile "princely materials" with Corolla-grade plastic and "WTF ergonomics" mentioned in the more recent review I quoted. If you need a visual, check out the scratches in the steering wheel plastic; clearly evident in this photo from the C/D comparison test:



That might seem like nit-picking but you have to wonder how that plastic is going to look a year or two down the road. Road and Track also gave a decided edge to the interior styling of the A7 in their heads up test with the 350-F, FWIW.

 

[330CIZHP]

Yet, every single person failed to answer my simple question. Why is that American magazines outside this forum that get slammed for declaring improbable German cars winner in most comparison never gets picked on (for example, an E46 325 winning over the new G35 back in 2002 or a BMW M3 winning over a Nissan GTR).

To all of the European loyalists, it is "normal" when a European car typically wins a test most of the time in American test. Yet, the rare occassion where a non-European car wins, that is exactly the moment in time continuum when they come to the realization that American magazines are blatantly unfair to European cars.

Lexus winning in a US test really can't come as a surprise. Anyhow, good job by the ugly duckling.

Corolla grade plastic"?? That is the type of material that is used normally in almost every luxury car switch gears and buttons.

Those cheap looking plastic dial on the steering and buttons on the RS certainly don't look any better in quality.

"

Dissent within the ranks at C/D. It's hard to reconcile "princely materials" with Corolla-grade plastic and "WTF ergonomics" mentioned in the more recent review I quoted. If you need a visual, check out the scratches in the steering wheel plastic; clearly evident in this photo from the C/D comparison test:



That might seem like nit-picking but you have to wonder how that plastic is going to look a year or two down the road. Road and Track also gave a decided edge to the interior styling of the A7 in their heads up test with the 350-F, FWIW.

 

[Levi68]

The tester of C/D better cut his nails.


Anyway, posting such pics is just weak way of trying to prove a car bad. If you want to play this game, here is the cheap quality stitching in the new Audi A8.

 

[Zafiro]

You have to love Guibo attempts to defend a japanese cars on a german carforum

I have respect for Lexus and I like IS and I adore the LFA and I have owned more japanese cars than german cars and I can say the reliability is just untouchable. But the GS do not look good in my eyes and I can't find any reasons why I would pick a GS and not a F10.
Also, I don't like being accused for having excuses everytime I pick a german car and not a japanese car. GS is simply not the car for me and F10 can do everything just as good as this GS can do + F10 looks a lot better.

 

[VoltageLeak]

The tester of C/D better cut his nails.

Or Lexus might want to use more scratch resistant materials in the interior.

Anyway, posting such pics is just weak way of trying to prove a car bad..

Blow things out of proportion much? Did I say the cheap plastic in the interior ruins the entire car?

 

[Guibo]

@Guibo,

Many call me an Audi fan through and through which I am having owned several and yes I am saying its a feeling of nose heaviness that driving them gives you but I also know that I can take corners just as quickly in them as any BMW I have ever owned. You talk about the square tyre setup they use as an explanation of their superior grip but I'm sure if the other felt it offered them an advantage they would all be doing it but the don't and in any case we shouldn't be talking about anything other than factory spec.

Now if you were to say they dont prefer Audi's balance then I will concede that point because that's purely about the experience driving these cars gives.......is that what you are saying?

As Motor Trend has said (and I've been telling you all along), it's not about how fast you can take corners. It's how the car feels. Now that you have admitted to the feeling of noseheaviness, then there's nothing more that you can say. What Motor Trend felt has been echoed before, and it's perfectly in line with what we expect from a car with the A6's setup. Stupid physics for making itself evident! And short of GPS tracking device or onboard telemetry, how would you ever know that you actually took those same corners at the same speed as you did in the BMW; it's also entirely possible you thought you were near the BMWs' limits when you were not. You are quite positive an A6 Quattro can take corners as fast an E92 M3?
You clearly missed the point about the tires and square setup. It's not about the other not using them for an advantage. The reason the others don't use them is probably because they don't have that mass in the nose and can get away with more balanced performance even with 20-30mm fatter rear tires. In other words, they don't need a square setup to feel balanced. The A6 goes one worse: It has the square setup, yet still understeers more.
Yes, I'm saying they don't prefer the Audi's balance. I can't think of a car magazine that prides itself in reviewing sporty enthusiast cars preferring a nose-heavy, understeery balance either. Having driven some AWD and FWD vehicles at rapid pace on mountain roads, I can fully understand why.

Whaa? That Lexus has no German design. Nowhere. It's Japanese mixed with American taste, and it's ghastly.

What exactly is Japanese interior design? When I look at the GS interior, I see straight edges, square/rectangular shapes and a lack of desire to really contour or flow one part into the next (as we can see in early Lexus and Acura designs). There is almost a utilitarian simplicity to it as I see in some German cars of the 80s.

Dissent within the ranks at C/D. It's hard to reconcile "princely materials" with Corolla-grade plastic and "WTF ergonomics" mentioned in the more recent review I quoted. If you need a visual, check out the scratches in the steering wheel plastic; clearly evident in this photo from the C/D comparison test:

That might seem like nit-picking but you have to wonder how that plastic is going to look a year or two down the road. Road and Track also gave a decided edge to the interior styling of the A7 in their heads up test with the 350-F, FWIW.

I'd guess most owners of a $60k car might be a bit more careful than motoring hacks paid to wring them out in the limited time they're allotted with the vehicles. You think the shift knob that came off on the Cayman on TopGear is typical of Porsche quality? Or the problem with the Turbo's engine in the comparison with the ZR1? There's no reconciling needed. The article you originally referenced seems to be coming from the point of view of only 1 or 2 editors. In the group test, there are more people involved from which to reach a general consensus. It doesn't mean that they have to all agree with each other.
Score one to the A7 for styling in R&T (but not for fit & finish). It came down to the preference of wood trim over metal accented pieces. They didn't say anything about the Lexus being cheap, but I do agree wood should be available in the F Sport package.

 

[Guibo]

You have to love Guibo attempts to defend a japanese cars on a german carforum

Because I know I can't count on you to do it.

I'm not pushing the Lexus on you, Just_me. If it's not your style, then it's just not your style. What is at issue, and has come up in debates before, is whether Motor Trend are idiots for picking the Lexus. And whether, by extension, those who prefer the Lexus are likewise idiots. Or should be made to feel like picking something ranked just below Crap. You can't count me in that group yet as I've made no mind one way or the other about which car I prefer. Based on the report of the driving dynamics, I'm pointing toward the Lexus but as I said (short of driving all of these over the same roads as these editors) further tests are in order.
What is evident to me and it's come up before in the form of the LFA vs Aventador in Car Magazine is that there are car enthusiasts, and then there are car enthusiasts with a certain bent toward one continent that will never give a worthy car from another continent the respect that it deserves, no matter how good it is.

 

[VoltageLeak]

I'd guess most owners of a $60k car might be a bit more careful than motoring hacks paid to wring them out in the limited time they're allotted with the vehicles. You think the shift knob that came off on the Cayman on TopGear is typical of Porsche quality?

I'd say the examples you mention speak to build quality, not material selection. I'd also say you're veering off-topic and missing the point.

There's no reconciling needed.

Yes there is. Princely materials and "Corolla grade plastic masquerading as metal" are observations at odds with each other.

The article you originally referenced seems to be coming from the point of view of only 1 or 2 editors. In the group test, there are more people involved from which to reach a general consensus. It doesn't mean that they have to all agree with each other.
Score one to the A7 for styling in R&T (but not for fit & finish). It came down to the preference of wood trim over metal accented pieces. They didn't say anything about the Lexus being cheap, but I do agree wood should be available in the F Sport package.

Where do you see a ranking of fit & finish in the R/T test?

 

[Guibo]

I'd say the examples you mention speak to build quality, not material selection. I'd also say you're veering off-topic and missing the point.
Yes there is. Princely materials and "Corolla grade plastic masquerading as metal" are observations at odds with each other.
Where do you see a ranking of fit & finish in the R/T test?

The point is what happens to cars supplied for press testing and whether we can derive some conclusion about quality. Whether its material selection or build quality is not entirely the point, as we are discussing what is representative in what a typical owner does vs what a typical vehicle tester does.
But you don't know what another C&D tester might have said in that other test, which for all we know could be the opinion of a single editor. And it's perfectly plausible that the GS in the group test had perfectly unblemished interior trim.
Where did I say I saw a ranking of fit & finish in the R/T test?

 

[Deckhook]

@Guibo,

I am admitting that at times all Audi quattros can feel nose heavy but what I am telling you is that MT are wrong to suggest that on twisty backroads it's going to perform less well than the others they were testing, far from it in fact because the A6 will show them a clean pair of heels.

 

[Guibo]

@Guibo,
I am admitting that at times all Audi quattros can feel nose heavy but what I am telling you is that MT are wrong to suggest that on twisty backroads it's going to perform less well than the others they were testing, far from it in fact because the A6 will show them a clean pair of heels.

Of course, because you are now claiming it will also show a clean pair of heels to an E92 M3....
Again, I think you need to take a close look at what I've posted: Where in any of that article did they suggest the A6 was slow??

 

[330CIZHP]

The material selection is obviously a non-issue since all of those cars sport similarly selected plastic materials. It is more of a matter of which one gets singled out here in this thread. The RS picture I posted above is a proof making it sound oxymoronic.

There has never been any issue with Lexus' material selection versus another brand. As a matter of fact, it has been one of the strongest suit for Lexus. The issue always had solely been boring, bland driving dynamics, super quiet isolation from the engine and exhaust with a cushy ride suitable for grand dads of typical Lexus cars. Even an avid Lexus hater like Jeremy Clarkson always has praised the fit, finish, materials and engineering of Lexus interiors.

The point is what happens to cars supplied for press testing and whether we can derive some conclusion about quality. Whether its material selection or build quality is not entirely the point, as we are discussing what is representative in what a typical owner does vs what a typical vehicle tester does.
But you don't know what another C&D tester might have said in that other test, which for all we know could be the opinion of a single editor. And it's perfectly plausible that the GS in the group test had perfectly unblemished interior trim.
Where did I say I saw a ranking of fit & finish in the R/T test?

 

[Deckhook]

Of course, because you are now claiming it will also show a clean pair of heels to an E92 M3....

Well now you are being stupid.……is would need at least 100 more ponies for that it happen.

 

[VoltageLeak]

Well now you are being stupid.……is would need at least 100 more ponies for that it happen.

Which leads us to the S6, a car I'm strongly considering and anxious to see a real world test of.

 

[Guibo]

Well now you are being stupid.……is would need at least 100 more ponies for that it happen.

I was talking about cornering, where you claim the A6 is objectively superior to the M3. Speaking of which, do you have any independent test to back up this claim of yours?
And to clarify my earlier point, nowhere did Motor Trend suggest that the A6 was slow.

"the Audi smokes the others in just about every performance measurement"
"Audi masks this flaw with all-wheel drive and gobs of power, but it's not a good-feeling car to drive. For instance, while not as fast, the Lexus just kills the Audi in feel."
Note: The Lexus was slower.
"The Lexus proved the most entertaining, rewarding, and confidence-inspiring up, down, and along our demanding Malibu road loop."
Note: Nowhere did they say "the fastest."

 

[Zafiro]

Because I know I can't count on you to do it.

Nah, working for IKEA keeps me busy. I have 80 hours overtime in just 1.5 months. IKEA is killing me

 

[Deckhook]

I was talking about cornering, where you claim the A6 is objectively superior to the M3. Speaking of which, do you have any independent test to back up this claim of yours?
And to clarify my earlier point, nowhere did Motor Trend suggest that the A6 was slow.

"the Audi smokes the others in just about every performance measurement"
"Audi masks this flaw with all-wheel drive and gobs of power, but it's not a good-feeling car to drive. For instance, while not as fast, the Lexus just kills the Audi in feel."
Note: The Lexus was slower.
"The Lexus proved the most entertaining, rewarding, and confidence-inspiring up, down, and along our demanding Malibu road loop."
Note: Nowhere did they say "the fastest."

The M3 thing was a joke, I thought you got that what with the smilie attached at the end.

Listen if MT feel the A6 is devoid of any feel or entertainment that's up to them but I do know others have felt different, I think it's really up to the individual to decide which it is.

 

[Guibo]

The M3 thing was a joke, I thought you got that what with the smilie attached at the end.

Listen if MT feel the A6 is devoid of any feel or entertainment that's up to them but I do know others have felt different, I think it's really up to the individual to decide which it is.

I got that smilie. I thought you would understand what I was originally referring to:
"Many call me an Audi fan through and through which I am having owned several and yes I am saying its a feeling of nose heaviness that driving them gives you but I also know that I can take corners just as quickly in them as any BMW I have ever owned." [No smilie.]

Still no data, personal or otherwise, to back this up?

And others have also echoed what Motor Trend felt. As an obvious Audi fan through and through, you're not making this any clearer. In fact, one could argue you have a vested interest in claiming to the contrary.

 

[Deckhook]

^On the road either the S5 or S4 would tackle corners with the same composure as my M3 did, I didn't for one minute feel any more confident to push the M3 faster. Now on the track this might well have been different with the M3 coping better as the speeds started to climb but since I never drove either of the Audis on a track to find out if this opinion would be true but I reckon it would.

You ask me for data to prove my opinion Audi corner as well but I say why when MT have proven it for you, the Audi grips longer and harder with more lateral Gs.