Motor Trend: BMW 535i vs Infinit M37S vs Lexus GS 350 F Sport vs Audi A6

[deity]

My greatest grievance wasn't with the sportiness of the GS.

"
In driving feel, the Lexus does exactly what you want it to do -- it shrinks around you. Yet, when it comes to pampering, it opens up, inviting you into the richest, most aesthetically pleasing cabin in its class. Lieberman: "Gorgeous interior. Love the metalwork, especially the volume and tune knobs. Feels like they're off my old Marantz Quadradial. Extremely solid and finely made." Martinez: "From the classy analog clock to the soft leather lining the seats, center console, and doors to the near-perfect sport steering wheel and massive and clear multimedia display, this Lexus oozes modern sophistication." Evans: "This is my favorite Lexus interior ever. So refined and stylish. Not boring and not overdone."

- I just looked at the steering wheel and it has to be the ugliest abomination I've ever seen. Way too chunky and the L just screams a huge yawn for me.
- Spoke about the classy analog clock already. Really? That thing is FAR from classy. Cheap and tacky is what it is.
- Clear multimedia display? From what I see, the fonts are the most pixelated images I've seen in a while.
- Most aesthetically pleasing? Hah. Please.


[

 

[K-A]

Whenever I see the "L" emblem, I think of the 90's. It's a dated emblem to me. In fact, if you think about it, that makes sense. The most timeless and classic art comes from.... well, the truly classic era's. M-B and BMW's emblems are powerful because they come from a powerful time, very long ago, and have been showcased through historic periods, surrounded by historic art.

The Lexus "L", at no fault of its own (except for that it looks lame, boring, uneventful, meaningless, and wasn't born decades before it was), symbolized "cutting edge in the 90's". Just doesn't have that visual or emotional cachet to anyone who isn't a Lexus buff.

 

[VoltageLeak]

[...] and if it starts to understeer wildly, one can back off the throttle for it to regain the line. Out on a public winding road with bumps, undulations, or downhill gradients that can exacerbate an already heavily front-biased weight distribution, you simply have less margin to regain the line due to the fact that there may be guardrails, cyclists, other motorists, trees, curbing, etc. It is not hard to imagine that certain combinations of surface and gradient might very well push the A6 into a sense of wooliness it would not otherwise exhibit in more controlled conditions, making it feel larger than it is.
.

"Starts to understeer wildly". Have you ever experienced understeer firsthand? Understeer rarely, if ever, snaps the car radically off-course. It is a progressive pushing of the front end. The car doesn't go into a spin. Nevermind the fact that the stability control systems on these cars will intervene and bail a driver out of all but the most extreme situations. I mean, I can buy the fact that the lighter, better balanced Lexus could keep pace with the Audi on a winding mountain road, but the notion that the Audi feels larger than it is under certain conditions but not others is nonsense. It may indeed feel heavy and deliberate in direct comparison to the Lexus but it's going to feel that way on a test track or slalom course too. If you're going to call people out for making fantastical claims and launch into lectures on "testing vs. what happens on the road" provide something more substantial than idle speculation of how you think these cars might behave.

 

[Gianclaudio]

My greatest grievance wasn't with the sportiness of the GS.

"
In driving feel, the Lexus does exactly what you want it to do -- it shrinks around you. Yet, when it comes to pampering, it opens up, inviting you into the richest, most aesthetically pleasing cabin in its class. Lieberman: "Gorgeous interior. Love the metalwork, especially the volume and tune knobs. Feels like they're off my old Marantz Quadradial. Extremely solid and finely made." Martinez: "From the classy analog clock to the soft leather lining the seats, center console, and doors to the near-perfect sport steering wheel and massive and clear multimedia display, this Lexus oozes modern sophistication." Evans: "This is my favorite Lexus interior ever. So refined and stylish. Not boring and not overdone."

- I just looked at the steering wheel and it has to be the ugliest abomination I've ever seen. Way too chunky and the L just screams a huge yawn for me.
- Spoke about the classy analog clock already. Really? That thing is FAR from classy. Cheap and tacky is what it is.
- Clear multimedia display? From what I see, the fonts are the most pixelated images I've seen in a while.
- Most aesthetically pleasing? Hah. Please.


[

Checkmate

 

[Merc1]

You guys are so funny.........

I'm going to go drive this car Saturday just to see whats what.


M

 

[K-A]

I should go drive the Lexus too and get a first hand driving impression (already know the styling impression).

I also called my BMW salesman contact guy and told him to get me a 535i with M-Sport to toss around again.

 

[Guibo]

"Starts to understeer wildly". Have you ever experienced understeer firsthand? Understeer rarely, if ever, snaps the car radically off-course. It is a progressive pushing of the front end. The car doesn't go into a spin. Nevermind the fact that the stability control systems on these cars will intervene and bail a driver out of all but the most extreme situations. I mean, I can buy the fact that the lighter, better balanced Lexus could keep pace with the Audi on a winding mountain road, but the notion that the Audi feels larger than it is under certain conditions but not others is nonsense. It may indeed feel heavy and deliberate in direct comparison to the Lexus but it's going to feel that way on a test track or slalom course too. If you're going to call people out for making fantastical claims and launch into lectures on "testing vs. what happens on the road" provide something more substantial than idle speculation of how you think these cars might behave.

Yes, I've experienced understeer firsthand. I've felt a FWD car's noseheaviness and willingness to push far more on a downhill gradient twisty than I have on highway ramps. When I say "wildly," I mean a situation of severe understeer that can make the nose veer off the intended line far more than another, much more balanced car, and may include a relative lack of response to throttle input. And why would it be nonsense for this disparity in track testing vs road testing? Are you claiming that road conditions (bumps and gradients) which are present on a road but not on a skidpad could never, EVER contribute to pitch the vehicle in such a way that more weight is shifted forward, or that dips in the surface could never, ever tax a chassis that is already at full compression even more? The car testing world is full of examples of cars that can do great on smooth skidpad surface, but turn out to feel distinctly out of their element on winding roads where sheer lane discipline dictates that you can't take liberties that you otherwise would on a test track. Eg's: ZR1 and Boss Mustang on British B-roads; some Corvettes in American tests also don't fare well on the road, when they encounter mid-corner bumps, and can suffer severe tramlining that never shows up on a skidpad. We are talking about cars (in the case of the ZR1) that have posted 1.10g on the skidpad, which is huge. Yet on the road (and on the Nordschleife with its gradients and bumpy surfaces, as HvS found), it can be an unbalanced handful compared to other cars in test. The Audi R8 and Aston in those group tests certainly don't pull anywhere near 1.10g on the skidpad. This is not "idle speculation." This is observable behavior.

^ Called you stupid, you mean you didn't notice the smilie at the end of that post which clearly show it to be a joke. I don't bad mouth a fellow member when I can possibly help it so if you felt offended then I apologise.

As for posting slalom speeds yes to does show the advantage RWD and for that matter FWD have over AWD but last time I was driving I didn't nor ever will weave my way though either concrete posts or predestrians so I don't see the great importance placed on this test but each to their own.

Except there was no condition to what you knew I was talking about (cornering). Whether the A6 needs another 100 hp is irrelevant to your claim of cornering composure.

The slalom tests a car's turn-in and transient repsonses, how stable it is to rapid direction changes. If you claim the mountain roads in the UK have nothing of the sort, I'm going to have to laugh. It doesn't have to be exactly like a slalom course to remain relevant. Here again, changes in suface and gradient in the real world may exacerbate a nose-heavy, understeering condition.

I didn't want to discuss the M3 v RS5 but you and others brought it up so here my two cents worth on the subject, so far they both have been tested on a total of sixteen tracks either together or separately of those the M3 has been quickest in six the RS5 a total of ten.

If you didn't want to discuss it, then why would you make the claim that your Audis cornered just as fast as any of your BMWs?
That's a Mr.Ree way of looking at test results, but the simple fact is whenever an RS5 has encountered an M3 in a track test on equal terms (same day, same driver), it has pretty much invariably lost. Not just in the speed department, but also in overall balance and involvement. Again, it's funny that someone who doesn't care how fast or slow a Jaguar is now suddenly cares so much about track performance between the RS5 and M3. Did you happen to arrive at that tally by looking at another of Mr.Ree's favorite sources of authority, Fastestlaps.com?

 

[VoltageLeak]

[...] And why would it be nonsense for this disparity in track testing vs road testing?

Because the A6, like most every other AWD Audi in recent memory, is going to lapse into understeer at the limit. Road testing isn't going to reveal some vice or unexpected handling trait in a car like the A6 that isn't present in a track or slalom test. This isn't a 600hp, RWD car with street- legal, r-comp grade tires and the roads in question aren't as demanding as the Nurburgring, nor do typical road speeds approach a ZR-1's pace on an all-out ring assault. Seriously, try to keep things in perspective.

Are you claiming that road conditions (bumps and gradients) which are present on a road but not on a skidpad could never, EVER contribute to pitch the vehicle in such a way that more weight is shifted forward, or that dips in the surface could never, ever tax a chassis that is already at full compression even more?

I'm claiming that not a single magazine review mentions this imaginary disparity in handling you keep bringing up. They all say pretty much the same thing about the A7 and A6; not as eager to attack a winding backroad as the Lexus; more deliberate. No mention of "wild understeer" or sudden, radical weight shift unsettling the chassis.

 

[Deckhook]

@Guibo you claimed of wild understeer is the point when I stopped listening, not because I don't like what I'm hearing but because that comment is laughable. Almost all road car have understeer designed into their chassis simply because most of them are driven by unskilled drivers who wouldn't have the first clue what to do if the tail stepped out but this understeer is progressive with no sudden surprises, when the nose starts to push wide a slight lift in throttle brings it safely back into line, no drama, no fuss. The only way the understeer will continue to increase is if you keep the throttle buried and continue to increase the steering lock which is plain stupid and I can't for one minute think you would have been doing that so I can only assume you an exaggerating a fair bit.

Also comparing fwd to awd isn't exactly to same thing, with fwd there's no transferring of power to rear which has the effect of lifting the throttle to a degree whilst making to tail more mobile and if the A6 has a sportsdiff then this effect is even more pronounced. May I suggest getting behind the driver's seat of an S4/5 and from a full stop turn the wheel full lock turn ESP off and bury the throttle, this will show you this transfer of power and zero understeer what so ever only tail out all the way.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

1. Infiniti
2. BMW
3. Audi
4. Crap
5. Lexus

As far as I'm concerned.

Most appropriate I say.

There's one brand missing from your list, Mercedes. ... Oh wait, it's there at number 4.

 

[Guibo]

@Guibo you claimed of wild understeer is the point when I stopped listening, not because I don't like what I'm hearing but because that comment is laughable. Almost all road car have understeer designed into their chassis simply because most of them are driven by unskilled drivers who wouldn't have the first clue what to do if the tail stepped out but this understeer is progressive with no sudden surprises, when the nose starts to push wide a slight lift in throttle brings it safely back into line, no drama, no fuss. The only way the understeer will continue to increase is if you keep the throttle buried and continue to increase the steering lock which is plain stupid and I can't for one minute think you would have been doing that so I can only assume you an exaggerating a fair bit.

Also comparing fwd to awd isn't exactly to same thing, with fwd there's no transferring of power to rear which has the effect of lifting the throttle to a degree whilst making to tail more mobile and if the A6 has a sportsdiff then this effect is even more pronounced. May I suggest getting behind the driver's seat of an S4/5 and from a full stop turn the wheel full lock turn ESP off and bury the throttle, this will show you this transfer of power and zero understeer what so ever only tail out all the way.

If you "stopped listening" then why are you still responding?

The question was not whether I've tried FWD vs AWD (which I have but only in utility vehicles). The question was whether I've ever experienced understeer. I already know practically all cars have at least benign understeer buit into them for safety reasons. What does doing a burnout from a full stop have to do with anything? Even the older GT-R can do that, but that car was also sometimes criticized for heavy understeer compared to other cars.

Because the A6, like most every other AWD Audi in recent memory, is going to lapse into understeer at the limit. Road testing isn't going to reveal some vice or unexpected handling trait in a car like the A6 that isn't present in a track or slalom test. This isn't a 600hp, RWD car with street- legal, r-comp grade tires and the roads in question aren't as demanding as the Nurburgring, nor do typical road speeds approach a ZR-1's pace on an all-out ring assault. Seriously, try to keep things in perspective.
I'm claiming that not a single magazine review mentions this imaginary disparity in handling you keep bringing up. They all say pretty much the same thing about the A7 and A6; not as eager to attack a winding backroad as the Lexus; more deliberate. No mention of "wild understeer" or sudden, radical weight shift unsettling the chassis.

If you're saying that I'm saying the A6 understeers wildly, then you've misinterpreted what I've said. I've always said IF. The extreme is used just as an example, so that we can at least accept that there just might be differences.
How do you know the roads in question aren't as demanding as the Nurburgring? They don't have to be anywhere near as fast to tax a ZR1's chassis. A tight, bumpy road that an Elise might breeze through could pose a considerably different problem for the ZR1.
Also, you never answered the question: Is it possible that a sequence of bumps, undulations, compressions, surface crowning, and gradient found on a twisty mountain road just might reveal handling characteristics differently from a flat skidpad? Throughout this, you seem to be saying it's absolutely impossible. Impossible that a tiny, light car like an Elise could deal with a sequence of real-word turns much better than a ZR1, which pulls around 10% more lateral g. I'm not talking about trying to put the power down while in the corner (indeed, the hp disparity between the M3 and Boss Mustang is nothing to even talk about and neither are on R-compound tires anyway). I'm talking about pure cornering (and where it matters on downhill descents, what effect gradients may have to weight balance).

 

[Deckhook]

The ring is arguably the most demanding road there is which is probably why most manufacturers use it to fine tune their chassis, the odd thing is Audis do rather well here so understeer isnt causing any problems for those European testers.

 

[Guibo]

The ring is arguably the most demanding road there is which is probably why most manufacturers use it to fine tune their chassis, the odd thing is Audis do rather well here so understeer isnt causing any problems for those European testers.

It's the most demanding track where you can run anywhere close to 10/10ths. Which you can't on a public road for some of the very reasons I've cited. (Yes, I know it's technically a toll road open to the public, but not for the 'Ring times you care to mention.) The Nurburgring is good because unlike most public roads, it houses quite an array of pit facilities and amenities to support entire crews. Many manufacturers use it for durability testing purposes, thanks in part to the extreme and sustained high speeds you couldn't repeatedly get on public roads. (Except unless you're racing on the Isle of Man TT where I suspect some would argue that circuit is far less forgiving than the 'Ring.) As such, it offers something of a reasonable benchmark setting, rather more relevant than claiming Car X set a 9:xx.xx time on Skyline Blvd between Avenue Y and Road Z. I would wager one could spot any number of equally or more demanding roads during a WRC event; single-lanes, heavily rutted, severe crowning/camber, with trees or power poles where guardrails might otherwsie be. BMW and Jaguar use the 'Ring but they also do much if not most of their fine-tuning on the surrounding roads, which are plenty demanding as well. It's also close to autobahns that allow unlimited speeds which is important to their development testing. Just because a car sets a fast lap at the 'Ring doesn't mean it will be faster or more composed than something else on a winding road; it just means that there's a greater probability that it will do well vs something tuned on a completely smooth track like, say, Hockenheim. Where HvS said the ZR1 was in its element.

 

[Guibo]

My greatest grievance wasn't with the sportiness of the GS.
- I just looked at the steering wheel and it has to be the ugliest abomination I've ever seen. Way too chunky and the L just screams a huge yawn for me.
- Clear multimedia display? From what I see, the fonts are the most pixelated images I've seen in a while.]

Steering wheel is the ugliest abomination you've ever seen? I don't think it looks any worse than this:
View attachment 387546ab796e63f0eafbad78ec88f655.jpg
Ever seen the steering wheels on current Kias or the 4-spokers found on some GM's? If you honestly think that Lexus GS wheel is the ugliest you've ever seen, either you've not seen enough steering wheels, or the Lexus badge is the main problem with it.

Unfortunately, the low-res pic you posted tells us nothing about the pixelation of either screen. Getting closer up, it doesn't look like much between them.

Whichever one is better down to personal taste, but to criticize one (but not the other) for pixelation seems like splitting hairs. This looks pretty clear to me, and shows no problem with pixelation.

 

[deity]

I'm not a Lexus hater. I LOVE the LFA and I've often praised Lexus' if you would go check.

I just don't really like the steering wheel on the GS. The chunkiness of it just ruins for me. It looks way too fat and kinda drab and lifeless. The LFA, I do agree and believe, has a very, very nice steering wheel. And that wheel has the SAME L on it. And while I don't particularly enjoy the S Class' steering wheel, I do think its very apt for the vehicle. It doesn't even matter that the S class has an ugly steering for you though. It doesn't change the way I think about the GS.

And by looking at the picture you linked...the fonts are not graphically appealing to me at all. The 0.25 mi seems a little stretched out. The words Map Mode look clumsy with the blue detailing. The right side of the screen is admittedly quite sharp, but that's only on the optional 12-inch screen. And during my experience with the RX screen (which I assume is the same 8in. screen; correct me if i'm wrong), I didn't like it. Maybe its the blue accenting that's ruining the words for me... but I still the fonts like a little pixely to me.

Again, I'll repeat this again for the sake of you. I love Lexus, i'm not even kidding. I'd probably get the LFA over a Pagani. I've consistently praised the LS, GS (I just don't like the interior!) and even the ES. Go look at some of the threads I've commented in and you'll know.

 

[Guibo]

I just don't really like the steering wheel on the GS. The chunkiness of it just ruins for me. It looks way too fat and kinda drab and lifeless.
And while I don't particularly enjoy the S Class' steering wheel, I do think its very apt for the vehicle. It doesn't even matter that the S class has an ugly steering for you though.

And by looking at the picture you linked...the fonts are not graphically appealing to me at all. The 0.25 mi seems a little stretched out. The words Map Mode look clumsy with the blue detailing. The right side of the screen is admittedly quite sharp, but that's only on the optional 12-inch screen. And during my experience with the RX screen (which I assume is the same 8in. screen; correct me if i'm wrong), I didn't like it. Maybe its the blue accenting that's ruining the words for me... but I still the fonts like a little pixely to me.

How do you know the S-Class doesn't matter to me? An ugly wheel is an ugly wheel. You think the GS wheel is drab and boring, but I definitely see a chiseled, contoured look to it.
I means seriously, in a world in which these have existed...

...the Lexus GS wheel still counts as the ugliest-ever?

Of course a close-up digital image taken by a digital camera and posted on the internet is going to show some pixelation. From a normal vantage point in real life, I think you'd be splitting hairs between the resolution of any of the screens mentioned. You can even see the individual buttons on the cellphone icon. You don't like the stretched font but that is clearly by design. (How likely is it that your typical owner will even notice that?) Porsche's word logo is also stretched font and that looks fine to me, even when mixed in with regular fonts in the interior. Speaking of which, I don't like Lexus using painted plastic, but if Porsche can get away with it, maybe we can let Lexus slide. At least they don't charge thousands extra for it.
As for the differences in screen size, I think the resolution in terms of dpi is the same between them. The 12-inch probably just allows more information to be displayed simultaneously, which is handy for hybrid versions where people may want to keep track of battery/economy and have GPS at the same time.

 

[Deckhook]

I actually like the GS wheel......it's the best part of that interior.