Vs Motor Trend: BMW 535i vs Infinit M37S vs Lexus GS 350 F Sport vs Audi A6

[Kowalski]

I've just heard: It's snowing in hell! Anyway, still would have the 5ser, because the Lexus is an eyesore.

 

[Levi68]

If not that the BMW 5 Series is still the best car IMO, just lacks full-LED headlights and B&O soundsystem but I'm sure it will get this at FL, I could think about the Lexus GS, because I quite like it, something different to the usual three premium cars.

 

[Deckhook]

Whereas the A6 tried really, really hard to feel like a $60,000 automobile, the BMW didn't even break a sweat.

Can't agree with that comment and I've yet to see a European review that felt the Audi had less of a quality feel than the 5, E-class or any other, in fact more often than not its the car which is praised for its interior, micro-fine shut lines and perceived quality. Also how in earth can they claim it feels overly nose heavy, those isn't a remark often used either.

I get the feeling Audi dont have a great name in the States compared to Europe and based on Motortrend's comments I doubt this will change anytime soon.

 

[330CIZHP]

Completely incorrect.

As I specified before, Lexus sedans usually places last in American tests most of the time. This is the first time a Lexus sedan has been placed 1st. Why is it that nearly every European brand loyalist here is getting completely opposite to how it is and simply ignoring this fact? As a matter of fact, the only argument that can be made is that American tests are typically against Lexus.

The 328 just won a few weeks ago the entry level luxury comparison by Motor Trend. If Motor Trend is so "biased" against BMW, why did they award it the win just a few weeks ago?

It is like choosing only the facts that suit one's argument while ignoring all the others.

Also people talk about being "biased", American tests are far more likely to be impartial than Europeans because for Japanese vs Europeans, they have absolutely zero reasons to side with one or the other.


http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/bmw-540i-page-8

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2007-bmw-550i-page-4

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1205_sport_luxury_sedan_comparison/viewall.html

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/3-series/2007/comparison-test-2007-bmw-335i-vs-2007-lexus-is-350.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2006-bmw-330i-page-1

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...is_f_mercedes_c63_amg_comparison/viewall.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2008-bmw-m3-vs-2008-lexus-is-f-comparison-tests

Goes without any long explanations, this being a US review the Lexus wins.

What I do find a worthwhile comment and just as I experienced the A6 inside IRL. AND PLEASE, this bothers me rather that making BMW look good! Audi is setting the wrong example with the hard plastics between the seats and under dash - eye line. Say the next gen 5er has that plastics!? BMW will then argue: "If Audi got away with it so can we"....just try and understand my point here. The Big 3 German competitors HAS TO set the perceived and tactile quality standards.



Such comments, whatever it's referring to has to be directed at NON-German brands, Mr. Winterkorn / Rupert Stadler

5er all the way!

 

[K-A]

^^ Correct. Lots of denial excuses here.

First off, Lexus probably has never beaten a BMW before in an American Test. BMW has historically ruled American tests, until the latest batch of cars really.

Merc has always been at the bottom of American Tests.

And lately, Audi has been winning all American tests.

Putting those things into perspective, it actually shows little to no bias toward Lexus, and an actual shocker that they didn't give Audi the win. Less of a shock that they didn't give it to BMW as they've been noting disappointment with BMW's softened up dynamics since the E60.

Me? I'd take the 5-Series here, as I find that Magazines NEVER get it right with Luxury Car comparisons. They determine these cars only based off of cone dancing and race-car attributes, when most people including myself who buy in this segment want the OPPOSITE. My #1 choice in this segment is obviously the E-Class, and it usually finishes near last in these comparison tests. To put it shortly: You want the best Luxury Car? Buy the one who finishes last in a Car Ragazine Test.

When it comes to Sports Cars, that's when you listen to these "Journalists" with their selfishly one track minded gauging of automobiles (sporty dynamics).

 

[Zafiro]

These cars already weigh +1900 kg's so most of the driving joy is gone. Many reviewers says F10 is the best allrounder and top of that the design is elegant inside and outside. My neighbour have a 530d M-package and 20" wheels and I always look twice when I see the car. Such a beauty. I only have one wish for the facelift, to improve steering feel.

 

[Tumbo]

For me:

1. A6
2. 535
3. M37S
4. The UGLY GS350!

 

[klier]

^ for me the 5er first and A6 second. Don't care one tiny bit about the other cars, they are nonexistant to me.

 

[GTA45E]

These cars already weigh +1900 kg's so most of the driving joy is gone.

That is a very clumby excuse to make the 5er look more competent, when it got beat by the Lexus in this test.
(The M5, E63 AMG weigh more than any of these cars yet are far more entertaining!)

Some of you guys are so biased... you really didn`t expect the Lexus to increase in performance and be that good, did you!
It will shoot bullet holes in the BMW with quality and reliability. Now Lexus is playing the performance cards and doing quit well which earned itself a top spot.

I`ll say congrats to the new Lexus GS. I don`t like your interior that much but your body style I could live with.
and yes, I would take you over the Cadillac CTS.

 

[tristatez28lt1]

Some of you guys are so biased... you really didn`t expect the Lexus to increase in performance and be that good, did you!

Of course I did. They had to, the last GS was abysmal and couldn't compete with the worst in the segment. This is nothing against Lexus. I've owned a ES350 for a couple months and it was a good, reliable car. No complaints.
However, I have compared the A6 and the new GS and judging from the interior, exterior, price, looks, performance aspect, there is just no way the new GS is better. You only need to feel and look at the interior of the Lexus and it's a win for the Audi. Adding all the other aspects of the two cars, the decision is clear (at least for me).

I have had my doubt about Motortrend before (because they ALWAYS complain about cars in a weird way, for example stating that a 8 sec 0-60 time is slow for a compact sedan and what kind of sick world of extravagence is this when 8.3 second 0-60 times are slow?) but this is just the cherry on the top.
I'd personally like a word with those "testers"

 

[Zafiro]

That is a very clumby excuse to make the 5er look more competent, when it got beat by the Lexus in this test.
(The M5, E63 AMG weigh more than any of these cars yet are far more entertaining!)

Some of you guys are so biased... you really didn`t expect the Lexus to increase in performance and be that good, did you!
It will shoot bullet holes in the BMW with quality and reliability. Now Lexus is playing the performance cards and doing quit well which earned itself a top spot.

I`ll say congrats to the new Lexus GS. I don`t like your interior that much but your body style I could live with.
and yes, I would take you over the Cadillac CTS.

Its not an excuse, its the truth. Comparing a 1900 kg car to a 1600 kg car is a big difference in terms of driving. I've driven the new 5er and its not an entertaining car. M5 and E63 are different kind of cars, they have all the power to make up for all the weight but it doesnt help when cars like M3 and 1M is far more thrilling ride than a M5. Talking about driving joy with +1900 kg is just wrong. GTA dont try to convince me that you choose E-class over a GS

I say congrats to Lexus as well , at least for building one of the worlds greatest cars in the world - LFA. But in this segment, its not the car I pick.

 

[Deckhook]

For me it would be a hard decision between the A6 and 5 cause both are brilliant machines, know very little about the latest Lexus and know nothing about the Infinity.

 

[Monster]

IMO this review's main focus is to find the best handling mid size luxury sedan and they found that the GS is the best one. While I am slightly surprised by this result, the fact is it isn't entirely impossible to believe. It isn't like Lexus doesn't know how to build a world class chassis, the LFA is a very good demonstration of the engineer's ability, but they have always been restrained by the very conservative management team. However all this was changed when Akio Toyoda was put in charge The GS's chef engineer said Akio Toyoda himself test the prototype and ask the engineers to further improve the chassis until it is up to his standards.

To understand the type of car the new Lexus GS is, it’s best to ask the person who was in charge of its development. We drove with the Lexus GS program’s chief engineer, Yosihiko Kanamori, for a spirited drive up the mountain and quizzed him about the car’s evolution.
He said that each time an iteration of the new GS prototype was complete, Akio Toyoda (the boss of Toyota, Lexus and the great grandson of the company’s founder) would request further ride and handling improvements, until he was finally satisfied.

Lexus GS Review: GS250 & GS350 | Car Advice

This review from Australia also said the GS feels like the 5 series to drive.



For me, I will pick the 5 series, it is the complete package. It has the best combination of style, quality, performance, and comfort.

 

[GTA45E]

Its not an excuse, its the truth. Comparing a 1900 kg car to a 1600 kg car is a big difference in terms of driving. I've driven the new 5er and its not an entertaining car. M5 and E63 are different kind of cars, they have all the power to make up for all the weight but it doesnt help when cars like M3 and 1M is far more thrilling ride than a M5. Talking about driving joy with +1900 kg is just wrong. GTA dont try to convince me that you choose E-class over a GS
I say congrats to Lexus as well , at least for building one of the worlds greatest cars in the world - LFA. But in this segment, its not the car I pick.

Ok, thats your personal opinion. You didn`t make that clear in your first post but you cleaned it up nicely here.

 

[Guibo]

Can't agree with that comment and I've yet to see a European review that felt the Audi had less of a quality feel than the 5, E-class or any other, in fact more often than not its the car which is praised for its interior, micro-fine shut lines and perceived quality. Also how in earth can they claim it feels overly nose heavy, those isn't a remark often used either.
I get the feeling Audi dont have a great name in the States compared to Europe and based on Motortrend's comments I doubt this will change anytime soon.

Auto Motor und Sport has rated the 5er over the A6 in Qualitätsanmutung rating, twice.
Imageshack - 78960430.jpg
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Not European, but Edmunds noted: "Both cabins have rich wood inlays surrounding their tech, but the furnishings in the A6 are warmer than the down-to-business ensemble in the 535i. However, we noticed a couple ill-fitting panels in our Audi tester, while the BMW is flawless."

The A6's forward weight bias has been noted before too.
"The Audi’s greater mass, forward weight bias, and body roll contributed to a dynamic persona that was less playful and a bit more cautious."
--Car and Driver, Audi A6 3.0T Quattro vs GS350

"Directional changes, enhanced by the electrohydraulic power steering (numb at low speed, precise above 40 mph), are prompt, but as corner-entry speeds increase, the combination of two-ton mass, all-wheel drive, and forward weight bias inevitably dulls transient response and amplifies understeer."
--C&D individual test of A6 3.0T Quattro

In the Edmunds test with the 5er, they noted "significant understeer" during instrumented testing of the A6. No such comment for the 5er, though they did note its steering degradation over the previous 5er, which was echoed in numerous European tests (meaning the door had been well and truly left wide open for Lexus to stick more than just a foot in).

 

[Levi68]

The Lexus is on a good way. After the positive reviews of the GS and the beautiful LF-LC, I expect a very good next generation Lexus IS. I drove my fathers IS200 (NA 2.0l I6) and really liked that car.
Audi is/was often denied being a Mercedes/BMW rival, but now Audi is very succesful and up right there with the big ones. Now many deny Lexus, but if they continue that way, Lexus will be a tough rival. What the R8 has done for Audi, the LFA is doing for Lexus.

 

[Merc1]

The only tests that Lexus used to win regularly was back in the day when the LS400 and LS430 used to beat up on the previous 420SEL and S430 models back in the day, other Lexus hardly ever won anything. The LS460 (the best LS ever) got creamed by the S550 since day one in every U.S. test I've seen.

Lexus has seemingly made the GS into a sports sedan for real this time, too bad 95% of Lexus buyers in the segment aren't looking for that. The GS will sell in big numbers for 1 year and then drop off like it has done since day one.

Still though this is an embarrassment for the 5-Series which used to OWN this segment. Let the excuses about comfort and what not fly. Face it the regular 5-Series has seriously moved away from being THE sports sedan in this segment.


M

 

[Deckhook]

Auto Motor und Sport has rated the 5er over the A6 in Qualitätsanmutung rating, twice.
Imageshack - 78960430.jpg
Imageshack - amusaudia6tdivsbmw520de.jpg

Not European, but Edmunds noted: "Both cabins have rich wood inlays surrounding their tech, but the furnishings in the A6 are warmer than the down-to-business ensemble in the 535i. However, we noticed a couple ill-fitting panels in our Audi tester, while the BMW is flawless."

The A6's forward weight bias has been noted before too.
"The Audi’s greater mass, forward weight bias, and body roll contributed to a dynamic persona that was less playful and a bit more cautious."
--Car and Driver, Audi A6 3.0T Quattro vs GS350

"Directional changes, enhanced by the electrohydraulic power steering (numb at low speed, precise above 40 mph), are prompt, but as corner-entry speeds increase, the combination of two-ton mass, all-wheel drive, and forward weight bias inevitably dulls transient response and amplifies understeer."
--C&D individual test of A6 3.0T Quattro

In the Edmunds test with the 5er, they noted "significant understeer" during instrumented testing of the A6. No such comment for the 5er, though they did note its steering degradation over the previous 5er, which was echoed in numerous European tests (meaning the door had been well and truly left wide open for Lexus to stick more than just a foot in).

Look at the stats of each car tested

Infinity : handling (lateral acceleration of 0.89 g, figure eight of 25.9 seconds at 0.70 g)
Audi : around the skidpad (0.95 g), and through the figure eight (25.1 seconds at 0.74 g)
BMW : the skidpad with 0.89 g of intensity and weaved through the figure eight in a respectable 25.9 seconds at 0.69 g.
Lexus : lateral acceleration of 0.94 g; figure eight of 25.4 seconds at 0.71 g

Only the Lexus gets close to the A6, that measurement for all cars is the point when the nose finally gives up the ghost and runs wide so which cars ultimately have the most understeer here and which produces the least?

If they are getting the feeling of more understeer from the A6 then it is just that 'a feeling' because unlike the others it doesn't have the luxury where a bootful of throttle will switch the understeer to oversteer.

Well that's my opinion.

 

[Guibo]

Look at the stats of each car tested

Infinity : handling (lateral acceleration of 0.89 g, figure eight of 25.9 seconds at 0.70 g)
Audi : around the skidpad (0.95 g), and through the figure eight (25.1 seconds at 0.74 g)
BMW : the skidpad with 0.89 g of intensity and weaved through the figure eight in a respectable 25.9 seconds at 0.69 g.
Lexus : lateral acceleration of 0.94 g; figure eight of 25.4 seconds at 0.71 g

Only the Lexus gets close to the A6, that measurement for all cars is the point when the nose finally gives up the ghost and runs wide so which cars ultimately have the most understeer here and which produces the least?

If they are getting the feeling of more understeer from the A6 then it is just that 'a feeling' because unlike the others it doesn't have the luxury where a bootful of throttle will switch the understeer to oversteer.

Well that's my opinion.

Your opinion seems to be based on a confused mix of crunching objective numbers without really understanding what balance really is. That the A6 was even close on a tight figure-8 course does not mean it's more balanced than other cars. It just might mean it has more grip; obviously with AWD, it can take a bull bootful of throttle coming out of corners and translate that more into forward momentum than the RWD cars here. You could put Pilot Sport Cups onto a nose-heavy, primarily understeering car but that doesn't necessarily magically transform its handling balance. It just raises the threshold of ultimate grip.
What the skidpad figure doesn't tell you is how the car feels while circulating the skidpad. Same for the other pure raw objective numbers. Thankfully, Motor Trend doesn't just print a performance figure stat sheet and leave us all to conclude the results. That's why there is text (and indeed, even entire magazines that can successfully move print without any performance figures in a comparo). And what happens on a figure-8 doesn't necessarily translate directly to a winding mountain road. A combination of undulations or downhill gradients could exacerbate a situtation that was only benign understeer on a completely flat surface to one that seems woolly (by comparison) on the road.
It's a little ironic that Motor Trend, notoriously criticized for picking American manufacturer vehicles on the basis of figures, hereby admonishes the reader to look past the figures and understand what goes on behind them, and yet here you are doing the exact opposite: Taking the performance figures and deriving the context (ie, that they must have been fallible to conclude what others have felt, namely nose-heaviness thanks to the basic layout of the car).

Simple fact is, you downplayed the faults of your favorites in light of evidence to the country, which had previously been published.

 

[Deckhook]

^Ultimate grip isn't something you can dismiss that easily which was why I suggested that the A6 might feel like its got more understeer without that actually being the case. A car can be slower than another yet feel quicker due to the experience it gives you which might well be what's happening here.

I understand full well the benefits of balance but a well balanced car does not mean its quicker, I'm of the opinion that figures don't lie but that a human being can be fooled into think the opposite to be true.