Vs Mercedes-Benz C63 vs BMW M3

[Zafiro]

If you want, but isn't that against what you were talking about earlier That particular lap time was not acheived in a supertest.

EVO use different drivers too around their testrack. If people use EVO as a reference then you can use Sportauto as a reference as well even though its not the same driver all the time.

 

[Zafiro]

Here is a detailed comparison between M3 and C55 from the Supertest.

M3 / C55
Testing Date: 12/2000 and 7/2004
Tires: Michelin Pilot Sport / Pirelli P Zero Rosso
Temperature (Asphalt): 16 Degree Celsius / 19 Degree Celsius
100 - 0 Km/h cold: 37,8 m / 37,5 m
100 - 0 Km/h hot: 36,4 m / 36,7 m

0 - 100 Km/h 5,2 s 5,3 s
0 - 120 Km/h 7,1 s 7,2 s
0 - 140 Km/h 9 s 9,2 s
0 - 160 Km/h 11,4 s 11,7 s
0 - 180 Km/h 14,7 s 14,7 s
0 - 200 Km/h 18,1 s 18,3 s

Nordschleife:
Round time 8.22 min 8.22 min
Schwedenkreuz 230 Km/h 231 Km/h
Aremberg 96 Km/h (0,9g) 91 Km/h (1g)
Fuchsroehre 209 Km/h 220 Km/h
Metzgesfeld 177 Km/h 148 Km/h
Bergwerk 103 Km/h (1,1g) 95 Km/h (1,1g)
Kesselchen 206 Km/h 216 Km/h
Klostertal 1 160 Km/h (0,85g) 154 Km/h (0,95g)
Klostertal 2 84 Km/h (0,9g) 79 Km/h (1g)
Pflanzgarten 174 Km/h (0,9g) 169 Km/h (0g)
Galgenkopf 135 Km/h (1g) 124 Km/h (0,95g)
Doettinger Hoehe 245 Km/h 249 Km/h

----------------------------------------------


Detailed info about C32:

Testing Date: 9/2001
Temperature (Asphalt): 30 Degree Celsius
Tires : Pirelli P Zero Rosso

100 - 0 Km/h cold 39 m
100 - 0 Km/h hot 39 m

0 - 100 Km/h 5,5 s
0 - 120 Km/h 7,6 s
0 - 140 Km/h 9,9 s
0 - 160 Km/h 12,5 s
0 - 180 Km/h 15,6 s
0 - 200 Km/h 19,8 s

Round time 8.37 min
Schwedenkreuz 239 Km/h
Aremberg 88 Km/h (0,8g)
Fuchsroehre 222 Km/h
Metzgesfeld 186 Km/h
Bergwerk 89 Km/h (0,9g)
Kesselchen 201 Km/h
Klostertal 1 155 Km/h (0,7g)
Klostertal 2 81 Km/h (0,85g)
Pflanzgarten 172 Km/h (0g)
Galgenkopf 125 Km/h (0,9g)
Doettinger Hoehe 243 Km/h


Notes:
- The M3 were tested year 2000 and C55 year 2004, thats a 4 years difference.
- M3 E46 has been the same car from the start to the end, C AMG has not, its been improved.
- M3 E46 was developed at the time when C32 existed, not during the existence of C55.

Im certain if the cars were tested again the time 8.22 min can be improved. Its a shame the M3 didnt get a large change like the C AMG.

 

[Zafiro]

i belive BMW will make the new M3 more comfy..im pretty sure

Of course the new M3 will be more comfy. M5 E60 is more comfy than M5 E39. M5 E60 has better chairs and adjustable suspension, comfort, normal and sportmode (EDC).
EDC is an extra option for M3 V8 but still without EDC the new M3 will be more comfy than the old.
Its called progress

 

[Sunny]

Nordschleife:
Round time 8.22 min 8.22 min
Schwedenkreuz 230 Km/h 231 Km/h
Aremberg 96 Km/h (0,9g) 91 Km/h (1g)
Fuchsroehre 209 Km/h 220 Km/h
Metzgesfeld 177 Km/h 148 Km/h
Bergwerk 103 Km/h (1,1g) 95 Km/h (1,1g)
Kesselchen 206 Km/h 216 Km/h
Klostertal 1 160 Km/h (0,85g) 154 Km/h (0,95g)
Klostertal 2 84 Km/h (0,9g) 79 Km/h (1g)
Pflanzgarten 174 Km/h (0,9g) 169 Km/h (0g)
Galgenkopf 135 Km/h (1g) 124 Km/h (0,95g)
Doettinger Hoehe 245 Km/h 249 Km/h

----------------------------------------------

Thanks JM, that is very eye opening, I took the trouble to look at the Ring map and here is what I found:

Round time 8.22 min 8.22 min
Schwedenkreuz 230 Km/h 231 Km/h ----> Straight
Aremberg 96 Km/h 91 Km/h ----> Slow corner
Fuchsroehre 209 Km/h 220 Km/h ----> Straight
Metzgesfeld 177 Km/h 148 Km/h ----> Fast corner
Bergwerk 103 Km/h 95 Km/h -----> Slow corner
Kesselchen 206 Km/h 216 Km/h ----> Straight
Klostertal 1 160 Km/h 154 Km/h ----> Fast corner
Klostertal 2 84 Km/h 79 Km/h -----> Slow corner
Pflanzgarten 174 Km/h 169 Km/h ----> Straight
Galgenkopf 135 Km/h 124 Km/h ----> Fast corner
Doettinger Hoehe 245 Km/h 249 Km/h ----> Straight

Though the cars have the same lap tine, the M3 is faster in every corner and the C55 is faster in pretty much every staright (except for Pflanzgarten, which is a short straight preceded by high speed corner - so probably the exit speed from the preceding corner determines which is the faster car). In fact it is so predictable, I could tell if it is a corner or staright by looking at the which car is faster. In the fast sweepers like Metzgesfeld, the difference is huge (177 Km/h vs 148 Km/h).

Any way it was very eye opening for me. I always used to look at the lap times and draw conclusions about a car's abilities. But, I guess, they tell you so little about a car's strong points and weaknesses.

 

[Sunny]

Here are some corner speeds around the ring missing from the JM's list but is there in this thread (thanks to Bruce):

Hatzenbachbogen: 142 km/h – BMW E46 M3
138 km/h – Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

Flugplatz:
159 km/h – BMW E46 M3
153 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

Ex-Muhle:
104 km/h – BMW E46 M3
96 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

Hohe Acht:
104 km/h – BMW E46 M3
101 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

Brunnchen:
103 km/h – BMW E46 M3
95 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

Anfahrt Schwalbenschwanz:
201 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG
201 km/h – BMW E46 M3

Schwalbenschwanz:
94 km/h – BMW E46 M3
92 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

 

[PanterroR]

I commend PC for being an exemplary member and not making this into some egotistical battle of "who knows more than wno" or some fanboy debate. Great member who deserves "public" praise.

So damn true! And those who don't have a habit to hit karma at all, now is your chance; PC definitely deserves it! Respect!

 

[Zafiro]

So Let's sum it up.
Now we have it on black and white why the C55 manage to keep up with the M3 on N-ring.

The time C55 lose in the corners , it will gain in the straightlines. Which mean M3 is taking corners better and faster than the C55. Better chassi, better grip and lower weight is probably helping the M3 around the corners.


The order has been restored j/k

 

[LaArtist]

^aint nothing been restored..the fact is.. BMW boys are just trying to find anything that will make the AMG look bad..
but its 2 diffrent styles.. and guess what.. AMG style aint worse than M style..
heck if you look at it as a whole.. ( laptime) its almost even..
and if you look at it from the other side, of day to day useabiltity its NOT even close.
the AMG is a way kinder car to live with..

so lets see now for the next generation.. MB will for sure make the C63 handle better..
as will bmw with the M3..
so i belive the M3 will be the faster track car once again.. but i belive the gap will close down FURTHER.. its allready at that point.. where a normal person wouldnt care anymore.. but it will be even tighter i predict..

now on the other hand.. can M make the M3 a kinder car to live with on a day to day basis?

thats whats left to see .. and THATS whats interesting to ME

PS
I would smoke most of you BMW boys around the ring if you had a M3 and i had the C55...
Dont forget that...

 

[Merc1]

No Comment.

M

 

[PanterroR]

PS
I would smoke most of you BMW boys around the ring if you had a M3 and i had the C55...
Dont forget that...

Why do i feel that Mikka H. hijacked your computer?

 

[Zafiro]

^aint nothing been restored..the fact is.. BMW boys are just trying to find anything that will make the AMG look bad..
but its 2 diffrent styles.. and guess what.. AMG style aint worse than M style..
heck if you look at it as a whole.. ( laptime) its almost even..
and if you look at it from the other side, of day to day useabiltity its NOT even close.
the AMG is a way kinder car to live with..

so lets see now for the next generation.. MB will for sure make the C63 handle better..
as will bmw with the M3..
so i belive the M3 will be the faster track car once again.. but i belive the gap will close down FURTHER.. its allready at that point.. where a normal person wouldnt care anymore.. but it will be even tighter i predict..

now on the other hand.. can M make the M3 a kinder car to live with on a day to day basis?

thats whats left to see .. and THATS whats interesting to ME

PS
I would smoke most of you BMW boys around the ring if you had a M3 and i had the C55...
Dont forget that...

You say that bmwboys try to make AMG look bad, surprise surprise, mb boys does the same, mbwolrd.org is a perfect example of that. Bmwboys and Mbboys are the same, that my friend is a fact.

A reason behind the laptime is intresting. Its nice to know the good and weak things with a car. By doing this you see what one car is better on than another car. Those who dont want to know this obviosly dont care about laptimes.

and question which car is easier to live with that is obvious individual. I have no problem with a stiff suspension, its more important that the seats are comfy to sit in than the suspension is soft.

Why would BMw make the new M3 easier to live with? Its hasnt been a problem before, people still buy them and prepared to live with them. Noone is asking bmw to build a car easier to live with, if they do they choose an AMG isntead. Both M and AMG have their customers. You want it to be easier to live with, you are obvious not one of bmws customers and even if bmw made the car easier to live with you would still choose an AMG


No I would smoke you even if I drove a 330i and you a CLK63


nah, Im fed up with this discussion. Its midsummer soon ,thats is more fun than this. We'arent getting further in this debate. We are not discussion C63 vs M3 V8 anymore.
- Both AMG and M build excellent cars but they drive different.
- Both AMG and M sell cars we should be happy for that.

Argh, damn thread!!

 

[PC Valkyrie]

EVO is using different drivers as well. EVO laptimes are just as good as Sportauto laptimes. It's no wrong using the time 1.16,3 min when you compare to the C55.
Even though you might not want to use that time, 1 seconds on a small track like Hockenheim is a larger difference than you think. Using the word "only" 1 second faster thats a wrong expression.
M3 E46 will have advantage or an edge (feel free to use any word u want) on a smaller tracks and all times presented proves that. Its not a question if its small or large differences, only one can be the fastest and in most cases its the M3 E46.

Boy, you guys post fast......I went to sleep last night at 10pm and I wake up to all of these posts!!!

JustMe, I agree that the Evo times are probably done by different drivers on different days....EXCEPT those which were done as a head to head comparison. The RS4, C55 and M3 CS were tested all as part of the same comparison test, on the same day, and presumeably the same drivers. I agree you can't compare times from different tests, but it doesn't get any better than a direct head to head comparison for the same comparison test. Therefore, I still consider the Evo C55 vs M3 CS vs RS4 test as the best test that compares these cars around a track.

 

[Zafiro]

Boy, you guys post fast......I went to sleep last night at 10pm and I wake up to all of these posts!!!

JustMe, ...........

LoL I was away for 8 hours and there were only a few new posts. Europeans write more than Americans

To each his own, feel free to post whatever review you want and times you want and I will continue with my sources. I still belive EVO use different drivers even if the cars are being tested the same day, thats what one swedish carmag do when they sometimes (rarely) test different cars. Maybe we should email, EVO about it and see what they say To draw a harsh line, there are no 100% fair comparisons imo. Also one single test is too little to go on to draw any conclusions.

Ps I still dont know why you consider to buy the new M3 V8 ? You seem to love your C55 a lot


EDIT: I went to EVOs webpage to see if they had any emails to send to the guys working for EVO. Anyone have a link to ask questions to EVO?

 

[cawimmer430]

In order not to offend anyone, I'll just go for the Lexus IS-F.

Seriously though, it's way to early to compare these cars from a performance perspective. The C63 AMG will probably come very close to the driving dynamics of the M3 (as seen by the recent positive reviews about regular C-Classes) but it will be held back by the need to satisfy the typical needs of Mercedes AMG clients, who also demand some typical Mercedes' traits like comfort for instance.

Either way both look hot, though I think the M3 looks better as a coupe / convertible than as a sedan.

 

[cawimmer430]

Both AMG and M have customers and I dont think it would be a good thing for MB if they gave up on comfort for a more involving drive.

I think that's a wrong move. The majority of AMG customers buy these cars because of the balance between sport and luxury. AMG simply caters to this crowd, BMW M doesn't.

Let these cars be the way they are so people can buy what they like.

 

[LaArtist]

You say that bmwboys try to make AMG look bad, surprise surprise, mb boys does the same, mbwolrd.org is a perfect example of that. Bmwboys and Mbboys are the same, that my friend is a fact.

A reason behind the laptime is intresting. Its nice to know the good and weak things with a car. By doing this you see what one car is better on than another car. Those who dont want to know this obviosly dont care about laptimes.

and question which car is easier to live with that is obvious individual. I have no problem with a stiff suspension, its more important that the seats are comfy to sit in than the suspension is soft.

Why would BMw make the new M3 easier to live with? Its hasnt been a problem before, people still buy them and prepared to live with them. Noone is asking bmw to build a car easier to live with, if they do they choose an AMG isntead. Both M and AMG have their customers. You want it to be easier to live with, you are obvious not one of bmws customers and even if bmw made the car easier to live with you would still choose an AMG


No I would smoke you even if I drove a 330i and you a CLK63


nah, Im fed up with this discussion. Its midsummer soon ,thats is more fun than this. We'arent getting further in this debate. We are not discussion C63 vs M3 V8 anymore.
- Both AMG and M build excellent cars but they drive different.
- Both AMG and M sell cars we should be happy for that.

Argh, damn thread!!

but this aint MB world..or M5 board

sure the laptime is interesting..im interested..but i see the picture as a whole and not details.. maybe thats teh diffrence between bmw and Mb fans..MB fans look for the complete package..while BMW fans focus on one part
damn narrow minded BMW fans..haha j/k

sure it sell.. heck the CSL sold out in days..and it has NO comfort at all
that is not the point

but i agree this thread is getting exhausted.. go and dance around the midsummer pole.. have fun..

 

[cawimmer430]

But I suspect that most M3 owners chose the M3 because of looks, and a sporty image and reputation. And that is something the C-AMG car loses out to big time.

Good point.

In my opinion, the M3 has always had this legendary status behind not only because of the way it performs, but also because of the youth appeal. The W201 190E EVO and EVO II performed quite well against the M3, they were definitely on equal terms, yet this car doesn't seem to get the same recognition as the M3 (in this case E30) because the 190-Series was generally perceived to be an "old mans car", especially by the sporting community (Hey, since when can Mercedes build sporty cars???? Yeah right!). When you think of legendary sports car, the name "M3" comes out right at the top. I guess this perception of Mercedes' as being cars for older people has trickled down to the current AMG cars and many people therefore think they don't handle etc. In my experience, and I don't want to offend BMW fans here, it's the BMW FANBOYS who promote this negative perception of "AMG's don't handle" too. Notice I said fanboys, not fans.


Even today I still encounter people who keep saying the same old cliche:

"All Mercedes does is drop a big powerful engine into a car, supercharge it and make it fast. It's only good for straight-line performance..."

If they only knew...


Funny actually, Mercedes literally started out as a manufacturer of sports cars. The majority of early Mercedes (Benz and Daimler cars) were sports cars.

 

[LaArtist]

And dont forget that MB´s motorsport heritage is nothing to be joked with..

 

[RICHBOY]

but this aint MB world..or M5 board

sure the laptime is interesting..im interested..but i see the picture as a whole and not details.. maybe thats teh diffrence between bmw and Mb fans..MB fans look for the complete package..while BMW fans focus on one part
damn narrow minded BMW fans..haha j/k

sure it sell.. heck the CSL sold out in days..and it has NO comfort at all
that is not the point

but i agree this thread is getting exhausted.. go and dance around the midsummer pole.. have fun..

Well said! This has been my point all along, BMW is rather one dementional, were Mercedes can straddle both sport and comfort. This is why I'm more impressed with the C63 then the M3. Mercedes might not be able to conquer the M3's driving dynamics but to be so close and offer far superior comfort for it's occupants is uncanny!

 

[cawimmer430]

And dont forget that MB´s motorsport heritage is nothing to be joked with..

Mercedes-Benz has a very rice and impressive motorsport heritage, correct.

In fact I am just scanning an article about a prototype Mercedes-Benz Le Mans racing car from the 1980s. Sadly it's in German so I'll need some time to go through it and translate it so that it can be understood.