Vs Mercedes-Benz C63 vs BMW M3

[Bruce]

Thats not what I have been told. Can you show me how you know this?
Just look at the Supertest and the Hockenheim times, they always use the best time when comparing with other cars from their supertests. If the same driver isnt always used this carmag doenst mean much to me anymore, thats sad.

As far as I'm aware (and you can ask Ajzahn to confirm it), regular tests are rarely conducted HVS. For instance, when the Corvette Z06 was first ran around the Hockenheim it was tested by Jochen Ulber, meanwhile the slightly slower time (published in the Supertest) was actually acheived by Horst Von Saumra.

So I suppose this is somewhat of an endless circle..

If I am incorrect, I'm more than sure DeDe will be able to provide the proper answer.

condescending? I wasnt condescending, I just presented some facts. Excuse me if english isnt my main language, I dont always know how to write without sounding condescending. Its nothing I do on purpose.

My apologies if I've misinterpreted you're post.

hmm bruce now you sounded condescending towards me.

You must have misinterpreted my post - as I had yours.

 

[Zafiro]

to BMW making the M3 a car you can live with on a day to day basis?

Yes I can, despite both handles very well on a track they feel different to drive.
Lets face it, not many people use their M3's for trackdriving, I would buy the car becuase its fun and feels sporty to drive and it looks darn good and even if the car is good on a track, 98% of my driving would be on the streets.

Believe it or not I know a guy that used his M3 transporting his wife and kids. I believe as long as people think the seats are comfortable to sit in they can forgive the stiff suspension.

 

[LaArtist]

^yep all vaild and normal reasons for buying the car..
Lol i hate ppl that say they buy it cause its point what of a second faster on track..

im sure ppl can forgive it.. but i think its somehting bmw will focus on..and try to make it more comfortable..
atleast they should..it should be more than just a raw machine
cause it aint a CGT or a Zonda afterall
thats why i say make a supercar

 

[Zafiro]

As far as I'm aware (and you can ask Ajzahn to confirm it), regular tests are rarely conducted HVS. For instance, when the Corvette Z06 was first ran around the Hockenheim it was tested by Jochen Ulber, meanwhile the slightly slower time (published in the Supertest) was actually acheived by Horst Von Saumra.

Then I have lost faith in Sportauto and its no long a good source.
I have seen the time 1.16,3 min for M3 being presented in Supertests and now it turns out that sportauto use different drivers.
Now this thread is worthless:
http://www.germancarforum.com/test-data/3358-officiall-sportauto-hockenheim-laptimes.html

The best thing is probably to delete the thread.

Also laptimes from EVO, autobild are worthless as well becuase they also use different drivers

 

[Zafiro]

im sure ppl can forgive it.. but i think its somehting bmw will focus on..and try to make it more comfortable..

Nah, they should not change anything. there are reasons why people buy a M3 and certainly its not becuase the priority is comfort. BMW will lose many customers if they start building the M3 with comfort as priority no 1, then people should buy a AMG instead.
Both AMG and M have customers and I dont think it would be a good thing for MB if they gave up on comfort for a more involving drive.

 

[Bruce]

Then I have lost faith in Sportauto and its no long a good source.
I have seen the time 1.16,3 min for M3 being presented in Supertests and now it turns out that sportauto use different drivers.
Now this thread is worthless:
http://www.germancarforum.com/test-data/3358-officiall-sportauto-hockenheim-laptimes.html

The best thing is probably to delete the thread.

Also laptimes from EVO, autobild are worthless as well becuase they also use different drivers

I wouldn't go as far as saying that. Afterall, many magazines (from around the world) use various test drivers and whatnot. It's something we cannot avoid.

Nonetheless, I think it's perfectly fair to compare one set of supertest lap times (both Hockenheim and 'Ring) against another set of supertest lap times. Afterall, just about all of them were done by the same driver

As far as I'm aware, the only Supertest which wasn't conducted by HVS was the CLK DTM's. It was conducted by Marcus Schurig.
Anyways, each his own

 

[Zafiro]

Nonetheless, I think it's perfectly fair to compare one set of supertest lap times (both Hockenheim and 'Ring) against another set of supertest lap times. Afterall, just about all of them were done by the same driver

:

so its okey to mention the laptime 1.16,3 min for M3 when we compare the time with C55, RS4 and other cars?

 

[Sunny]

i think the prob the MB boys have with this discussion
is the never ending attitude from BMW fans that AMG´s suck on tracks
maybe some here belive so
maybe others dont but dont know how to express themselfs..
aint no MB fan saying that the AMG is a better track car.. but they are just pointing out that the diffrence isnt huge..
i belive there is no crime in doing so

But it seems that we all can agree that the C55 wasent so far behind the M3 on track..
on the other hand..i can tell you this..the M3 was NOT near as comfortable as an C class AMG.. no way.. it was raw..and had you bumpiing all over the place during ordinary drives..

so with that in mind.. do you belive that the new M3 will be as RAW..
and are you willing to live with such a RAW ass car..when the AMG obviously isnt to far behind on track.. and probably faster in most real life conditions..

so lets refocus.. and take the focus away from MB makin the C63 a better track car..
to BMW making the M3 a car you can live with on a day to day basis?

PS
I know this might sound like the M3 is a lotus..
but that isnt the case..it is okay when it comes to comfort..
but the diffrence in comfort seems to be more significant
than the diffrence in track performance M3 vs C55

I use the M3 for my daily commute and I know countless others who happily do... including people with family and lil kids - the ride is absolutely fine. I don't think many people buy the M3 over AMG cause it is half a sec faster over some track, they buy it cause it is a more involving car (and of course a bit cheaper) or at least that was my reason.

 

[LaArtist]

^preach another good reason
but im starting to belive that we are so far advanced by now..that we can have both track capability and comfort in one.. maybe not optimised at any of those to..but damn near exellent in both categorys

i belive BMW will make the new M3 more comfy..im pretty sure

by the way just me..i did not mean that they should take comfort as their no1 priority.. heck i dont think even AMG does that..

but they should concider it..

and i belive they will..

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Point is the two will cater to like, but slightly different crowds. I formed my opinions based upon what I know and having driven both cars on more than one occasion. The M3 is an all out track car with a few creature comforts to keep drivers happy. The C63 is more, like I said, a purpose built luxury drag racer much like the C55 was/is - goes fast but probably won't like corners as much as any M3, guaranteed. No doubt it will have some handles, but I'm sure they'll be pale next to the M3's. It's not that hard to form a conclusion on two cars whose base variants have already been tested and are on the market, though of course I'd expect their characters to be quite different, but the basic foundation has already been proven.

I guess my whole point of my previous post is to discount that statement above in bold that many people automatically assume. The handling of the C55 PALES in comparison to the M3?? That's a bit strong, don't you think? The data doesn't support that, and neither does personal experience on the track.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

I use the M3 for my daily commute and I know countless others who happily do... including people with family and lil kids - the ride is absolutely fine. I don't think many people buy the M3 over AMG cause it is half a sec faster over some track, they buy it cause it is a more involving car (and of course a bit cheaper) or at least that was my reason.

You're absolutely right that the M3 can be used as a daily driver, with kids at the back too. You're also right that most M3 drivers don't really care about how fast their car can go around a track. Most will never take advantage of their handling abilities of the car.

But I suspect that most M3 owners chose the M3 because of looks, and a sporty image and reputation. And that is something the C-AMG car loses out to big time.

 

[Bruce]

so its okey to mention the laptime 1.16,3 min for M3 when we compare the time with C55, RS4 and other cars?

If you want, but isn't that against what you were talking about earlier That particular lap time was not acheived in a supertest.

As as result, if you're concerned about the use of different drivers, I'd only use figures acheived in Sport Auto's Supertests as they are were acheived by the same driver (which in that case - the E46 M3 ran 1:17.6)



As for the C55 only being tested once one the Hockenheim, PC Valkyrie is right - I just checked and it does indeed appear they only tested it once

 

[Deutsch]

I hope you didn't think I was trying to say that the new M3 is/was a more comftarble car than the C55/C63 will be TA? LoL, any and everything but, but it's not as bad as it may sound.

The last M3 was only uncomftarble because of the jerkiness of SMG, which is out of the equation for the new generation... supposedly? Some said the suspension was a little on the stiff side as well, if it wasn't it wouldn't be an M3. The first gernation M car(E30 M3) started out as a road going track special, and has since continued with those roots and always will. This car wasn't made for those that like to feel isolated, this is a "full contact" sports car. So with that being said an M car will always be the closest thing to a track car for public use, but it's not unbearable, and M engineers have done their best to make this a car that strikes a balance between comfort and sport(or track). However the ride will always lean more towards stiff than anything else, always.

 

[NarutoRamen]

While we're talking about daily driveability.

I used my e36 m3 as my daily driver and never did I complain about pain. That car was more comfortable than my current Acura TSX/Euro Accord. Not to mention that the e36 M3 is/was more uncomfortable than the E46. That should give you guys some idea.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

The M3 is a superb handling and track car for a reason, and that's not because it has some massively powerful engine with a butt load of torque. The C55 was able to keep up with the M3 because sheer pulling force, but in the twisties the C55/63 will have to work harder because the balance isn't there- one of the defining aspects of driving/engineering an M car- There generally isn't much to compensate for the mass these AMG cars have other than torque, as where with an M car every last detail concerning handling/weight balance is taken into consideration to get optimum performance. We could seriously go on and on with this discussion, but facts are facts.

I commend PC for being an exemplary member and not making this into some egotistical battle of "who knows more than wno" or some fanboy debate. Great member who deserves "public" praise.

Thanks for the compliment!! Here are some more "facts".

If driven properly, the M3 is just as fast (some M3 owners claim even faster) as a C55. Therefore, the reason the C55 can keep up with the M3 on a track is not because it is significantly faster in a straight line. It can keep up because it can handle almost as well as the M3 (as supported by very close skidpad grip and slalom times). In fact the M3 tested by Sport Auto Supertest had faster acceleration times than the C55 tested by Sport Auto Supertest.

The balance issue in the M3 is a very popular discussion point. As BMW marketing points out, a 50:50 weight distribution means a more neutral car in general when cornering fast at the limit. The weight distribution on the C55 is 54:46. Not 50:50, but not that far off. So the C55 will tend to understeer a little bit more than the M3. That 5.4L V8 is only 167kg. It is a low tech but very light motor because it has an aluminum alloy block and light weight materials for its pistons (compared to the very heavy E46 M3 motor which has a cast iron block).

In terms of actual weight of the car, the C55 is about 200lbs heavier than the M3. Heavier no doubt, but less than having 2 more adults (or one big adult) in the car.

Edit: And come on guys, the C55 doesn't even have a LSD as standard equipment. Give AMG some suspension tuning credit here to have this 200lb heavier car handle very close to the lighter M3 with LSD!!

 

[PC Valkyrie]

If you want, but isn't that against what you were talking about earlier That particular lap time was not acheived in a supertest.

As as result, if you're concerned about the use of different drivers, I'd only use figures acheived in Sport Auto's Supertests as they are were acheived by the same driver (which in that case - the E46 M3 ran 1:17.6)



As for the C55 only being tested once one the Hockenheim, PC Valkyrie is right - I just checked and it does indeed appear they only tested it once

Thanks Bruce for confirming. That's why I listed the C55 being exactly 1 second slower than the M3 when comparing the Supertest times, whcih were measured with the same drivers.

 

[LaArtist]

I hope you didn't think I was trying to say that the new M3 is/was a more comftarble car than the C55/C63 will be TA? LoL, any and everything but, but it's not as bad as it may sound.

The last M3 was only uncomftarble because of the jerkiness of SMG, which is out of the equation for the new generation... supposedly? Some said the suspension was a little on the stiff side as well, if it wasn't it wouldn't be an M3. The first gernation M car(E30 M3) started out as a road going track special, and has since continued with those roots and always will. This car wasn't made for those that like to feel isolated, this is a "full contact" sports car. So with that being said an M car will always be the closest thing to a track car for public use, but it's not unbearable, and M engineers have done their best to make this a car that strikes a balance between comfort and sport(or track). However the ride will always lean more towards stiff than anything else, always.

ohh no i didnt think you said that the M3 will be more comfortable..no no

anyways about M cars always being as close to track cars as possible..
no way jose..look at the M6..
and there will be an M7 and an X5M maybe even..
so maybe they should that that AMG approach with black series
as the ordinary M cars are going more and more towards comfort
i belive my point will be proven with this coming M3.. it will be a very all round car..
so maybe they should extend and speed up the CSL line..
those are to me the most track like bimmers there is
and so it should be..

 

[RICHBOY]

Damn brotha, why you gotta bring the RS4 into this? No body is talking about the AUDI. This is AMG vs. M thread. S/RS cars don't belong here. stick to the topic.

Sure NarutoRamen, sure!

 

[NarutoRamen]

Sure NarutoRamen, sure!

It's all good man...just giving you a hard time.

 

[Zafiro]

Thanks Bruce for confirming. That's why I listed the C55 being exactly 1 second slower than the M3 when comparing the Supertest times, whcih were measured with the same drivers.

EVO is using different drivers as well. EVO laptimes are just as good as Sportauto laptimes. It's no wrong using the time 1.16,3 min when you compare to the C55.
Even though you might not want to use that time, 1 seconds on a small track like Hockenheim is a larger difference than you think. Using the word "only" 1 second faster thats a wrong expression.
M3 E46 will have advantage or an edge (feel free to use any word u want) on a smaller tracks and all times presented proves that. Its not a question if its small or large differences, only one can be the fastest and in most cases its the M3 E46.