Vs Mercedes-Benz C63 vs BMW M3

[klier]

Well said! This has been my point all along, BMW is rather one dementional, were Mercedes can straddle both sport and comfort. This is why I'm more impressed with the C63 then the M3. Mercedes might not be able to conquer the M3's driving dynamics but to be so close and offer far superior comfort for it's occupants is uncanny!

far superior comfort, you seriously have got to be kidding me. The M3 doesn't even has SMG anymore. Manual and soon the dual clutch. The fact that the C63 comes with an auto tranny alone makes it a lame car, and indeed more comfortable. But that's about it. For the rest, the M3 will do everything better. Makes sense to, when we start comparing BMW M with MB's bought out AMG tuner......

 

[cawimmer430]

far superior comfort, you seriously have got to be kidding me. The M3 doesn't even has SMG anymore. Manual and soon the dual clutch. The fact that the C63 comes with an auto tranny alone makes it a lame car, and indeed more comfortable. But that's about it. For the rest, the M3 will do everything better.

Many people bought an SMG-equipped BMW M3 because they wanted the option of an automatic transmission. When I was in London I saw tons of BMW M3's equipped with SMG. Doesn't take you long to figure out that the owners wanted a nice car to be seen in but were probably not much into driving the piss out of it.

And who cares if the C63 AMG comes with an automatic? BMW was dropping the manual transmission in the M5, until customer complaints forced them into a knee-jerk reaction of sourcing the old 6-speed from the E39 M5 and mating it with the E60 M5 V10.

Makes sense to, when we start comparing BMW M with MB's bought out AMG tuner......

What's wrong with AMG being a "bought out" tuner?

They had impressive race results and achievements long before Mercedes bought them. So what's the problem? Your posted sounded like it was full of disdain...

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Here are some corner speeds around the ring missing from the JM's list but is there in this thread (thanks to Bruce):

Hatzenbachbogen: 142 km/h – BMW E46 M3
138 km/h – Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

Flugplatz:
159 km/h – BMW E46 M3
153 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

Ex-Muhle:
104 km/h – BMW E46 M3
96 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

Hohe Acht:
104 km/h – BMW E46 M3
101 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

Brunnchen:
103 km/h – BMW E46 M3
95 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

Anfahrt Schwalbenschwanz:
201 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG
201 km/h – BMW E46 M3

Schwalbenschwanz:
94 km/h – BMW E46 M3
92 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG

I am well aware of this data. But what we don't really know is where in the corner these speeds were taken. Maybe Bruce can comment? And no matter where in the corner these speeds are taken, it doesn't tell us how long it took the car to finish the corner. This is an important point. See below.

Generally, there are 2 aspects to every corner: 1) corner entry at turn-in, and 2) corner exit at the apex. You can be slower at corner entry, but faster at corner exit if you can get on the gas soon. Or you can brake very late and have a faster entry speed, but lose out on the exit a bit if you're cornering at the limit and can't get on the throttle as quickly. The C55 does understeer more than the M3, which means the best approach is to have a lower entry speed so that you can get onto the throttle as quickly as possible. Even though the M3 may have a higher entry speed, it may not transverse that corner faster than the C55 because the C55 may have a higher exit speed after the apex. This is all "in the corner", so I'm not talking about the straights.

To get the best out of every car, the approach may be different for different cars. I have no doubt that the lighter M3 is more agile and more balanced, which should allow for faster entry speeds into a corner. But what most performance schools teach for novice or average driveres is the "slow in, fast out" principle. Only the more experienced or pro drivers can really take advantage of really late braking to get that significantly higher entry speed. For most of us who may not even come close to driving 10/10ths on a track, the C55 is probably faster out of a corner.

Here is my summary of the C55 vs M3: The C55 has 95% of the handling of the M3, but 105% of the acceleration of the M3 in real world track driving. It is that close.

 

[Sunny]

I am well aware of this data. But what we don't really know is where in the corner these speeds were taken.

This picture shows where the speeds were taken, most of them are at the apex.

Here is my summary of the C55 vs M3: The C55 has 95% of the handling of the M3, but 105% of the acceleration of the M3 in real world track driving. It is that close.

That is your conclusion and you are free to have one - I happen to not agree with it. I think the numbers speak for themselves and was very eye opening for me and is there for every one to draw their own conclusions about it.

 

[RICHBOY]

far superior comfort, you seriously have got to be kidding me. The M3 doesn't even has SMG anymore. Manual and soon the dual clutch. The fact that the C63 comes with an auto tranny alone makes it a lame car, and indeed more comfortable. But that's about it. For the rest, the M3 will do everything better. Makes sense to, when we start comparing BMW M with MB's bought out AMG tuner......

Sorry Klier, calm down! I'm sorry that you were bothered by my post, I don't want no trouble buddy. Soon as you come with your none bias imformation it's time for me to go!

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Sunny, that picture doesn't show you anything about where in the corner the speeds were measured at. All it shows you is which corner they were taken at.

Like I said before, speed at some point in a corner is NOT indicative of how long it takes a car to transverse the entire corner (if you understood what I was saying in my last post).

You own a M3, right? Have you taken it on a track? If you haven't, you should definitely try it......it is plenty fun, and you also learn a heck of a lot about the handling of your car and how different ways of negotiating a corner can result in different results.

I've personally been on the track with numerous M3's. They all were expecting the same thing: that the C55 would perform very poorly compared to their M3's. Many of them were totally surprised when I could pass them. If you compare a stock C55 to a stock M3, it is actually a driver's race around a track. The M3 is a superior track car at the limit, but the difference isn't as big as BMW M owners like to think.

 

[Bruce]

I am well aware of this data. But what we don't really know is where in the corner these speeds were taken. Maybe Bruce can comment?

They were taken within the apex as far as I'm aware

 

[Zafiro]

They were taken within the apex as far as I'm aware

The the black dots must be where the speed were meassured?

-----------------------
I cant see how a car with softer suspension and higher weigth can be faster than a car with stiffer suspension. M3 also has lower center of gravity than C55 another important factor for a laptime. What secret formula is MB using?

BTW PC, did you one day woke up and decided to tell the world that C55 is just as good as a M3 on a track?


haha, you're like a messiah for MB fans

 

[Sunny]

Sunny, that picture doesn't show you anything about where in the corner the speeds were measured at. All it shows you is which corner they were taken at.

Like I said before, speed at some point in a corner is NOT indicative of how long it takes a car to transverse the entire corner (if you understood what I was saying in my last post).

You own a M3, right? Have you taken it on a track? If you haven't, you should definitely try it......it is plenty fun, and you also learn a heck of a lot about the handling of your car and how different ways of negotiating a corner can result in different results.

I've personally been on the track with numerous M3's. They all were expecting the same thing: that the C55 would perform very poorly compared to their M3's. Many of them were totally surprised when I could pass them. If you compare a stock C55 to a stock M3, it is actually a driver's race around a track. The M3 is a superior track car at the limit, but the difference isn't as big as BMW M owners like to think.

I autocross pretty regularly - though been sketchy this year. There are hardly any AMGs at the the local autocross - it is mostly BMWs, S4s and 911s and Corvettes not to mention shit load of WRXs, EVos and S2000s and the few AMG that I have seen are not competitve.

 

[Bruce]

The the black dots must be where the speed were meassured?

Yep!

 

[LaArtist]

New pics to further help you..

Damn the C63 looks HOT.. and its close now
M3 looks better than before on this pic to..

 

[Centurion]

Multi spoke rims, yummie yummie.


Ugly duckling:

 

[RICHBOY]

 

[Tarek]

^sweet

 

[Merc1]

My god that Lexus looks like crap. It amazes me how the styling taste differs from one side of the world to the next. The German cars look good in camo, but the Lexus looks awful with little or no camo. The Lexus' hood, rear door cutouts and that awful vent behind the front wheel look like Lexus hired someone in mental treatment facility to draw the car. Can you say schizophrenia? Those rims on the C63 look like Black Series rims!

M

 

[cawimmer430]

The Lexus IS-F in my opinion has "RICE" written all over it. What were they thinking when they designed that body kit?

Oh I know! They wanted it too look sporty and aggressive - and flopped big time. Even the color of choice, blue, looks terrible on the IS. That blue is just going to help catch people's attention looking at this thing and probably giggling! The stacked exhausts are just plain goofy and look silly.

With the majority of Lexus customers being conservative, I don't see how this car is supposed to appeal to them. You're probably going to attract the rice Honda crowd with the way this thing looks. Terrible.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Merc 1 & Cawimmer, your're both spot on. What were the Lexus designers thinking. The standard car isn't bad, its not oustanding either, but this one just looks gross and a complete joke next to the Germans. I hope they slaughter it in tests.

 

[Merc1]

The Germans will likely do just that, slaughter it. Lexus is out of its league here, IMO.

I think the real problem is that Lexus never intended to use a V8 in the IS. Kinda silly because the S4 and C55 have had V8s for years, but then again the IS was targeting BMW 3-Series which was still using 6-cylinder power for the M model. Now they've had to stuff a V8 in the IS and the body is just all shot to hell in the process. Clearly a fumble by Lexus' product planners, designers etc.

M

 

[cawimmer430]

I hope they slaughter it in tests.

Boy I'd love to hear the excuses over on Autolies when that happens.

 

[Zafiro]

I easily pick Lexus over C63 and M3