Vs Maybach vs Mercedes - UHSS vs regular steel

[Wunderkind]

I don't know, but when I was at university a few years ago (well, more than a few). High tensile steel was all the rage and people talked about how it was going to make cars lighter by 10-15 percent. The problem back then was no steel stamping/pressing machines were capable (powerful enough) of stamping high tensile steel sheets into panels and other bits and pieces.

I remember in the mid to late 1990's, the steel industry (Arcelor, BHP, etc) funded an initiative to make a steel-bodied car that would be more rigid but weigh similar to an aluminium-bodied car. Did that initiative get anywhere at the end?

What is the situation now?

 

[klier]

I like it. I would still take a Bentley Brooklands over it, however the Rolls Coupe is no match imo with its goofy proportions and add-on roof.

Ha! Haha!!!

To each his own. But at least a Phantom coupe is state of the art modern. And imo just stunning looking:

And the even more modern and state of the art Ghost coupe is coming soon too. Oh yeah.

 

[K-A]

I will get back into this after I have more time.

Basically yes, the Maybach was designed using old technology and less advanced materials but since the Maybach is just so much longer than your average car, its structure has more length to absorb the crash energy than other smaller cars.

I will get into the material science behind steel later on but I can say unless we have actual crash test reports at hand we can only speculate.

That's simply what I'm saying as well.

Facts are: Maybach is less advanced than the W212/W204/W221 from a safety perspective (HSS, old tech, previous era of safety engineering, etc.).

And, HSS and UHSS are superior steels to non HSS and UHSS. They're harder to bend, easy as that.

What the Maybach has going for it is sheer size, and perhaps more normal steels used where the newer cars use HSS. I'm going to predict that aside from the proportional reasons the Maybach would use fatter panels, they aren't going to protect as well over the W212's steels, in a side impact, or rollover, etc. I.e, the 'bach isn't engineered to surpass the W212 in safety-cage performance.... Instead, it would be the opposite (Maybach is the previous benchmark, W221 is designed to outdo it, W212, etc. follow).

I wish we could see a straight up side impact on the Maybach, IIHS style. If the cage bends any more than an centimeter, then is "loses" this little battle, as the W212 looks completely unscathed.

 

[K-A]

About the Drophead: Better and more modern actual vehicle, yes, more modern and interesting styling, yes, worth the price more-so, yes. But IMO, it's hideous. Probably in line with the Maybach in terms of sheer ugliness, but not dated.... Just ugly IMO. The Xenatec is much better looking than both to me.

 

[klier]

Can't believe we're still talking about some crappy tuner/ricer/whatever you want to call it company that has ONLY produced ugly cars so far....but ok....

 

[Human]

Ha! Haha!!!

To each his own. But at least a Phantom coupe is state of the art modern. And imo just stunning looking:

And the even more modern and state of the art Ghost coupe is coming soon too. Oh yeah.

Oh yeah!

 

[Wolfgang]

More info to study, from media.daimler.com

"Mercedes-Benz E-Class: The safety concept at the heart of the new E-Class is based
on intelligent designs and highperformance protection systems, not to mention meticulous
material selection and well-conceived employment of materials. More so than ever before,
Mercedes-Benz has given preference to ultra-high-strength steel alloys because they offer
maximum strength whilst minimising weight and, therefore, are essential for meeting the
strict safety and durability requirements. Around 72 percent of all the bodyshell panels for
the E-Class are made from these grades of steel – a new record in passenger-car development."

"Crash test, the front structure of the vehicle has absorbed the impact energy in this
high-speed crash test - the Maybach"

 

[Wolfgang]

"Winter testing on the polar circle, the Maybach test car shows all the right moves out on
the ice at Lake Hornavan near Arjeplog in Sweden, frozen to depths of up to one metre"

"Winter testing on the polar circle, check the quality of the engine compartment weatherseals"

 

[Monster]

That's simply what I'm saying as well.

Facts are: Maybach is less advanced than the W212/W204/W221 from a safety perspective (HSS, old tech, previous era of safety engineering, etc.).

And, HSS and UHSS are superior steels to non HSS and UHSS. They're harder to bend, easy as that.

This is inevitable.

What the Maybach has going for it is sheer size, and perhaps more normal steels used where the newer cars use HSS. I'm going to predict that aside from the proportional reasons the Maybach would use fatter panels, they aren't going to protect as well over the W212's steels, in a side impact, or rollover, etc. I.e, the 'bach isn't engineered to surpass the W212 in safety-cage performance.... Instead, it would be the opposite (Maybach is the previous benchmark, W221 is designed to outdo it, W212, etc. follow).

The design of the structures plays an important part in how well the car protects its occupants, the type of material matters, but the shape and dimensions of the structures matters as well.

I wish we could see a straight up side impact on the Maybach, IIHS style. If the cage bends any more than an centimeter, then is "loses" this little battle, as the W212 looks completely unscathed.

You can measure the degree of structural deformation to determine how safe the car is, but we do really need to measure the maximum amount of forces experienced by the passengers, and how well the passengers restrained during the impact to get an overall view of how safe the car is.

 

[footie]

More info to study, from media.daimler.com

"Mercedes-Benz E-Class: The safety concept at the heart of the new E-Class is based on intelligent designs and highperformance protection systems, not to mention meticulous material selection and well-conceived employment of materials. More so than ever before, Mercedes-Benz has given preference to ultra-high-strength steel alloys because they offer maximum strength whilst minimising weight and, therefore, are essential for meeting the strict safety and durability requirements. Around 72 percent of all the bodyshell panels for the E-Class are made from these grades of steel – a new record in passenger-car development."

The figure of 72% is incredible, is that statement referring to UHSS or a combination of UHSS and HSS?

 

[Wolfgang]

The figure of 72% is incredible, is that statement referring to UHSS or a combination of UHSS and HSS?

A combination of both. Here's the 221 S-Class to compare:

"High-strength, high-tech steel alloys represent half of the
material used for the body-in-white of the new S-Class -
an unprecedented percentage in automotive technology.
Date: Aug 30, 2005"

"Hood, fenders, doors, rear panel, trunk lid, and the front
and rear modules of the new S-Class are made of aluminum."

"Mercedes-Benz S-Class: Several robust frame rails, vertical
and horizontal, ensure impact energy is distributed over a
large area in the event of a frontal collision. Should a side
collision take place, occupants are protected by high-strength
steel side panels, B-pillars and four cross-members in the
vehicle floor. Date: Aug 30, 2005"

 

[bum-man]

As someone already said geometry plays a much bigger role in how a design will fair. The Maybach wasn't designed with lightness in mind so perhaps it uses thicker gauge sheets of steel for its structure. I'm actually Impressed at how well the A-pillar performed for the 62. For such an old vehicle with a ton of mass in it's rear end it seems to do really good.

 

[Wolfgang]

Anyone know if the 24 cylinder is still planned? Might help dissipating crash energy?

Auto Motor und Sport

Maybach with 24 Cylinder Engine?

 

[K-A]

Wolfgang: Does that mean the S-Class uses 50% HSS??

Footie: Yeah, it's remarkable really. And it's a combo of HSS/UHSS, and what M-B refers to as "Mega High Strength Steel" (W212 uses state of the art of what's available).

Also, Wolfgang, in your opinion, how much more impressive does the W212's bodyshell appear over the W221's, if at all?

 

[Wolfgang]

Wolfgang: Does that mean the S-Class uses 50% HSS??

Yes. From the info I have it's:

W116 0%
W126 11%
W140 17%
W220 38%
W240 41%
W221 50%
W212 72%

It's not so easy to compare them, since Daimler offers only a few selected pics.
The W212 body looks very tough in most. A few more.

W212

W221

W240 (simulation of US side impact test)

 

[footie]

Anyone know if the 24 cylinder is still planned? Might help dissipating crash energy?

Auto Motor und Sport

Maybach with 24 Cylinder Engine?

If you reckon on between 400cc and 500cc per cylinder as an average that would put this engine with a possible 9.6L - 12.0L capacity. Mind blowing and a definite two fingers up at the Green party.

 

[klier]

Anyone know if the 24 cylinder is still planned?

LOL, what do you think yourself???

24 cylinder

 

[Kowalski]

W221

The first crash-test trolley thingy has Porsche "phone dial" rims and the other one has that classic Mercedes 15 holes alloys (Does anyone know the official name of that wheel? I always loved the look of it).

 

[Wolfgang]

^^^
It's simply called the "15 hole wheel". Started with the W126 facelift I believe.

Tesla just released three pretty good videos explaining their chassis engineering.

Tesla Vehicle Engineering: Model S

Tesla is recognized as a leader in quality and innovation for its electric powertrain engineering and battery technology. Tesla design is known for its unique refusal to compromise beauty or efficiency. Not yet widely known is Tesla’s revolutionary approach to vehicle engineering.

Tesla assembled the brightest, most-promising automotive engineers to build the Model S. They took a fresh approach to their task, without the restrictions imposed by a traditional combustion architecture. Model S development includes Alpha and Beta testing phases.The Alpha testing phase began in 2010. Tesla’s Model S Alpha builds have been designed, built, and assembled to a new standard of perfection.

Tesla’s Vice President of Vehicle Engineering, Peter Rawlinson, talks about some of the features of Model S engineering at Tesla headquarters. He discusses the advantages of designing a car from the ground using Tesla’s proven electric powertrain, and how the result will be a drive experience to surpass any that have come before it.

Tesla Vehicle Engineering | Blog | Tesla Motors

 

[ObsessedWithCarSafety]

M-B might move backwards in other areas, but one area I am thoroughly convinced they are constantly pushing ahead, and not engineering to a price point (i.e S-Class reserves better than C-Class, etc.... No way), is in safety.

Hi, came across this thread after Googling for boron / HSS / car safety.

As much as I'd like to believe that M-B is constantly pushing ahead with regards to safety, and is "obsessed" with making the safest car possible, (as my username states, I'm obsessed with car safety myself), I'm not so sure it's true.

For example, check out the IIHS side-impact crash results for the 2007 E class. Not so good. Sure, the 2010+ does much better, with the B-pillar intruding much less (by 16.5 centimeters to be exact), but still... if M-B were constantly pushing ahead and so focused on safety, shouldn't at the very least a 2007 model excel in the side-impact crash test? Even the 2005 Audi A6 beat out the 2007 Mercedes by about 5cm. As did the 2006 Volvo XC90 (which is the exact same car as the 2003 XC90, I'm almost positive).

Also, while we're on the topic of side impact crashes: I hate how the IIHS's side-impact test uses a 3,300 pound barrier that's the size of the front-end of an SUV. Why is it so light? 3,300 pounds is lighter than a lot of cars (the E class weighs at least 400 more than that)... a VW Jetta weighs about 3.3K pounds. And most SUVs are at the very least 4K pounds, if not 4.5-5K. In my opinion, the barrier's weight should be increased by about 1K pounds in the near future, and the impact speed should be increased a bit too (currently it's at 31MPH). Doing so would cause just about every car on the market to fail the test. Which is a good thing.

My hunch -- and I could be wrong -- is that the reason why the barrier is so light, is that they may figure that if they set the bar too high too soon, then the car makers will be less likely to improve performance in side impact crashes. But now that so many cars are passing the test, I say now's the time to raise the bar.

But anyway, I'm still looking forward to seeing what kind of safety improvements Mercedes and other companies will be making in the future. I think we've come a long way but we've still got a long way to go.