Vs Maybach vs Mercedes - UHSS vs regular steel

[K-A]

Let me make a simple cliffs notes, to make my one and only main issue and argument clear, and cut through the fat of the rif-raff:

The Maybach being based off of a 2 (almost 3) generation old S-Class, sharing technology and engineering strengths from a 1 (almost 2) generation old S-Class, including safety, is ridiculous to me, when a W221 gives me every reason to believe that it is a superior vehicle, right down to each and every safety measure (HSS, Airbags, commitments, etc.), whilst costing about 4-5 times less. The W221 had to top everything that came before it in terms of safety, and you best believe that includes the Maybach.

Whether the Maybach is safe "enough" or not, is irrelevant. it isn't as safe as a W221, no way. If you believe it is, you believe in magic. Maybe it's not night and day, maybe it's not all that big a difference, but it doesn't matter, as it shouldn't lack in safety over a almost-going on-1 generation-old-S Class at all.

If I buy a $400K car, I expect it to perform at levels of safety that M-B produce today, and commit to meet tomorrow. I don't want to think that the guy in the $80K S-Class, is protected better than I am, due to him being in what is in fact a vastly more modern engineered car (and yes, the W221 is vastly more modern than a W140, and more modern than a W220).

 

[K-A]

We could subjectively argue style, interior design, materials, heck- even drive, ride, composure, feeling of solidity, etc. etc. all day long, regarding the Maybach and the W221. Someone can argue that the W220 is better in all those ways than a W221. Newer doesn't = better, especially from an enthusiasts perspective.

Certain things are not subjective though, and safety is one of them. Car safety is scientific, just like a 1/4 mile run is. If we're talking the same manufacturer, which means the same science applied to crash absorbing, then all we have as facts are U/HSS use, mass (yes, I agree, this is a huge factor, but still no excuse to under-compensate), Airbags, and current more strenuous safety expectations that need to be met, and if we're talking about M-B: Exceeded. Also, yes, crash test scores (which help us see if a car manufacturer shows better on paper, but got it wrong when applied to real world crashes). However, with no crash test scores on the Maybach, we have to research, and conclude in different ways. I think we can all agree that M-B won't move backwards in terms of real-world crash performance, so U/HSS, and Airbags, and additional time to refine things, are paramount in determining which M-B should be and most probably is more safe than the other.

 

[Merc1]

Yet at the end of all that, you haven't proven that the safety differences between a Maybach and the W204, W221, or W212, are enough to make a difference in the real world.

You have given no proof of this. Period.

Repeating the same nonsense over and over about steel and pointing to it because you don't know about any other safety advancements, doesn't prove anything it really only shows how light on facts your position is K/A.

Again, the W221 is more advanced than the Maybach, but you haven't proved that such a difference exists for anyone buying or driving a Maybach in 2011 should be worried about it. Period.

Prove that the difference in the safety envelopes between the Maybach and the S-class are enough to where the Maybach buyer is in danger then you would have a case until then you have no point.


Furthermore it is disingenuous at best to bring up anything about Honda, because Honda didn't take safety seriously until everyone else did. Old Hondas with their super low front cowls are disaster waiting to happen if you ever hit anything other than another car.

So you're telling me, that using common sense, common safety knowledge (let's stick with 3 very obvious and easy points: Less intensive HSS, less use of HSS, less Airbags, about a decade of extra safety knowledge and enhancements by engineers forgone), you can't connect the dots enough to figure out which car would be safer... Given equal mass? C'mon buddy.

What the hell are the advancements? List them. Explain them. Don't just pull them from Wikipedia.

And by the same ridiculous token you'd have me believe that because a newer car uses more of a different type of steel that a newer car is automatically safer? I say that because you don't even know what other safety "advancements" have been made without googling them.

I gave you some nonsense about airbags and guess what, its now its part of your argument. You hadn't even mentioned airbags before!!!! That in itself just show how much of a joke your whole argument has become. I mentioned airbags!!!!!!!!

Do you even know how many airbags a Maybach has vs the W221 or the W204?

When you can prove that the differences between the Maybach's safety vs the W204, W212 and the W221 is and that is poses a danger to someone then let me know. Until you're talking in circles, again.


Prove that the differences in safety between a Maybach and a S-Class make enough difference for someone to be worried about it!!!!!

Look back at my "100 MPH" example, to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

Again, a link to where this crash test was done please! Otherwise its more of the same, passing off guesses as fact. Where is the link showing this test and the results?????



M

 

[Merc1]

You first said that the C-Class was safer than a Maybach, then when I gave you the chance to put yourself if you car of choice in a serious accident you changed it to "the C-Class is more advanced". That it called changing your position once your previous one was no long tenable.

If the little C-Class is more advanced shouldn't it be safer than a 6000lb Maybach? Common sense trumped your argument when I brought a semi into the picture.

Again, the W221 is more advanced than the Maybach, but that doesn't render the Maybach unsafe or any less safe to the point of someone having to worry about it. That is my position and you can't disprove it with endless imaginary 100 mph examples passed off as fact.

If you can prove that the Maybach is less safe than the S-Class, so much so that it poses a real danger to the prospective Maybach buyer then by all means please present the proof. The fact that you don't like the car is well noted, but that your problem, not the person buying a Maybach. The car's safety certainly isn't a problem. Never has been.

Again, if the Maybach is so much less safe as to be a concern then prove it.



M

 

[K-A]

Yet at the end of all that, you haven't proven that the safety differences between a Maybach and the W204, W221, or W212, are enough to make a difference in the real world.

You have given no proof of this. Period.

Repeating the same nonsense over and over about steel and pointing to it because you don't know about any other safety advancements, doesn't prove anything it really only shows how light on facts your position is K/A.

Again, the W221 is more advanced than the Maybach, but you haven't proved that such a difference exists for anyone buying or driving a Maybach in 2011 should be worried about it. Period.

Prove that the difference in the safety envelopes between the Maybach and the S-class are enough to where the Maybach buyer is in danger then you would have a case until then you have no point.


Furthermore it is disingenuous at best to bring up anything about Honda, because Honda didn't take safety seriously until everyone else did. Old Hondas with their super low front cowls are disaster waiting to happen if you ever hit anything other than another car.




What the hell are the advancements? List them. Explain them. Don't just pull them from Wikipedia.

And by the same ridiculous token you'd have me believe that because a newer car uses more of a different type of steel that a newer car is automatically safer? I say that because you don't even know what other safety "advancements" have been made without googling them.

I gave you some nonsense about airbags and guess what, its now its part of your argument. You hadn't even mentioned airbags before!!!! That in itself just show how much of a joke your whole argument has become. I mentioned airbags!!!!!!!!

Do you even know how many airbags a Maybach has vs the W221 or the W204?

When you can prove that the differences between the Maybach's safety vs the W204, W212 and the W221 is and that is poses a danger to someone then let me know. Until you're talking in circles, again.


Prove that the differences in safety between a Maybach and a S-Class make enough difference for someone to be worried about it!!!!!




Again, a link to where this crash test was done please! Otherwise its more of the same, passing off guesses as fact. Where is the link showing this test and the results?????



M

Merc, I'm just gonna accept that I know, and have studied safety far more than you have.

I have facts, you have none, but assumptions.

Facts: More HSS, use of UHSS & MHSS, MORE AIRBAGS, 10 years of enhanced safety innovation from M-B, enhanced Active Safety.

These things ALL TRANSLATE TO THE REAL WORLD!!!!

What are your facts?

"Umm, well it's bigger, and M-B always makes safe cars, so a 10 year old M-B is as safe as a newer M-B. I don't care about factual info like stronger steels, more Airbags, etc.".

You might need to see it in front of you, but I don't. When you know enough about safety, it's partially a numbers game. I can figure out how a car will look after a crash, by knowing what steels are used, who the manufacturer is, where the steels are used, how much steels and thickness of steels, etc.

You think I didn't know the Airbag argument? My original argument was solely focusing on STEELS. You just opened up a subject that provided me with more ammo for my argument.

Again, if I'm shelling out half a Mil on a Maybach, I want more advancements. I'm not riding on "W140's were strong cars for the 90's". I want more UHSS than an S-Class, I want the drowsiness detector crap, I want Airbags for my knees, pelvis, sides, rectum.

Whether you think it's relevant in real world crashes, is irrelevant. I have facts that would put the W221 ahead of the Maybach on paper, which is more than enough for me. YOU prove to me, that a car from the SAME manufacturer, developed earlier, using less HSLA in the safety cage, shows better after an IIHS crash. Because I can give you legions of proof that UHSS drastically improves a cars safety cage rigidity.

 

[K-A]

You first said that the C-Class was safer than a Maybach, then when I gave you the chance to put yourself if you car of choice in a serious accident you changed it to "the C-Class is more advanced". That it called changing your position once your previous one was no long tenable.

If the little C-Class is more advanced shouldn't it be safer than a 6000lb Maybach? Common sense trumped your argument when I brought a semi into the picture.

Again, the W221 is more advanced than the Maybach, but that doesn't render the Maybach unsafe or any less safe to the point of someone having to worry about it. That is my position and you can't disprove it with endless imaginary 100 mph examples passed off as fact.

If you can prove that the Maybach is less safe than the S-Class, so much so that it poses a real danger to the prospective Maybach buyer then by all means please present the proof. The fact that you don't like the car is well noted, but that your problem, not the person buying a Maybach. The car's safety certainly isn't a problem. Never has been.

Again, if the Maybach is so much less safe as to be a concern then prove it.



M

Read this quote very carefully:

I agree that the materials are ridiculously first class in the 'Bach, and it is extremely plush. But to me, when I see Maybach, I see late 90's/early 2000's M-B, which is just unacceptable for a car of this range.... Especially now that the S-Class is just a couple of years away from revealing what will be a 2-generations newer car from what the Maybach is based off of.

When I see Maybach, I see W220 done up big time.

Also, for someone like me, who feels that the bones "underneath" a car are more important than the cars sheetmetal, materials, etc., I see even the W204 C-Class as a superior engineered vehicle, not to mention, the Maybach wouldn't perform up to spec with any current M-B in the lineup, safety wise.... Considering it was built during a time when many crash technologies, and ultra high strength steels that are used today, weren't even developed yet.

That said, this Maybach is the first one that has had me interested to look at in quite a while. It would be nice if they did this as a new generation (from M-B themselves) though. The Sedan is absolutely horrid. IMO it looks worse and tons more dated than the W220 it is based off of.

I never said the C is "safer". Laws of physics out of the equation, the C is safety engineered superiorly over the Maybach. Fact. More Airbags and more and better U/HSS = FACTS.

And I have news for you, being large isn't a form of safety engineering, it is, however, a natural form of *safety*. The C can be more advanced than a Semi, but a Semi is much larger and heavier, therefore it can tear through the C. This doesn't make the Semi engineered better in safety.... It just makes it heavier, and bigger. You seem to have the two confused.

Again, if I'm spending that dough, I am "worrying about it". I bought the two safest cars available that my budget would allow. One of them, the W212, is the safest car ever produced to date, I confidently claim.

Maybe if you're spending $400K, you don't care, or you'll rationalize that things like U/HSS and Airbags don't make a difference.

If I am, I'm not buying a Maybach with less quality (yes, *quality*) steels than used on a W221. And I'm not gonna spend that kind of coin on a "Benz" doesn't have the same amount of Airbags than a $30K C-Class does. Simple as that.

"Good enough" isn't good enough for me, when it comes to safety on a car that I'm in the market for. I want the most intensive U/HSS, the most Airbags available, the latest engineering in Active safety, etc. If I keep my car for a long time, and grow up with it, that's another story, but if I'm shopping, I'm not sacrificing, as my budget will allow at least. With a half-a-million budget, I want the best in every way.

 

[Merc1]

K/A is it i clear you that aren't even reading the responses anymore because you're arguing about things that aren't even being disputed.


You still haven't proven that the safety differences between a Maybach and the W204, W221, or W212, are enough to make a difference in the real world.

You have given no proof of this. Period.

Repeating the same nonsense over and over about steel and pointing to it because you don't know about any other safety advancements, doesn't prove anything it really only shows how light on facts your position is K/A.

You didn't even mention airbags until I mentioned them and you don't even know how many airbags are in the respective vehicles unless you google the info. All you have studied is what you've googled and you're no more of safety expert than anyone else here.

Again for the umpteenth time I am not disputing that the W221 is more advanced than the Maybach, but you haven't proved that such a difference exists for anyone buying or driving a Maybach in 2011 should be worried about it. Period.

Prove that the difference in the safety envelopes between the Maybach and the S-class are enough to where the Maybach buyer is in danger then you would have a case until then you have no point.

Your issue with the Maybach is your own, and no one else's.

M

 

[K-A]

K/A is it i clear you that aren't even reading the responses anymore because you're arguing about things that aren't even being disputed.


You still haven't proven that the safety differences between a Maybach and the W204, W221, or W212, are enough to make a difference in the real world.

You have given no proof of this. Period.

Repeating the same nonsense over and over about steel and pointing to it because you don't know about any other safety advancements, doesn't prove anything it really only shows how light on facts your position is K/A.

You didn't even mention airbags until I mentioned them and you don't even know how many airbags are in the respective vehicles unless you google the info. All you have studied is what you've googled and you're no more of safety expert than anyone else here.

Again for the umpteenth time I am not disputing that the W221 is more advanced than the Maybach, but you haven't proved that such a difference exists for anyone buying or driving a Maybach in 2011 should be worried about it. Period.

Prove that the difference in the safety envelopes between the Maybach and the S-class are enough to where the Maybach buyer is in danger then you would have a case until then you have no point.

Your issue with the Maybach is your own, and no one else's.

M

Lol. Knowing what I know about safety, each of my points is tangible and important in the real world. And if I was spending the bucks, it would make a difference to me. Simple.

I have enough safety knowledge to have easily figured out the ballpark steel construction, and airbag use in the 'Bach, simply based off of its inception time, even before knowing the hard "HSS" use facts.

And my original point had nothing to do with real world. Only technical "advancements", which you agree with me, are less than the W221. Done.

Sorry for the further O/T. It'll be my last (glorious) post on this subject.

 

[Wolfgang]

Xenatec, the manufacturers of the Maybach coupe, specialise in high strength steels and armor protection, if desired.
Here's some info on their new base in Dubai.


Xenatec custom vehicle builders set up Dubai base

by Mashfique Hussain Chowdhury

Xenatec, a custom and armoured vehicle manufacturing specialist, has launched operations in the region with a base in Dubai under the name of Xenatec Middle East & Africa this month. Xenatec is headquartered in Germany and builds special modified vehicles such as stretch limos and armoured cars, supplying components in the bodywork process and interior in-house. The company creates complete vehicles from concept development to design and prototyping, through to production.

Xenatec was formed in Germany following the acquisition of the ThyssenKrupp Drauz Nothelfer manufacturing base in November 2009. ThyssenKrupp is a “household name in German car production with extensive experience in car body construction and roots dating back over 100 years.”

Xenatec is involved in the development process of new vehicles, and offers prototype creation, existing model modification, interior upgrading, as well as individualised body conversions such as stretching and roof raising. Some of their dramatic ideas raised eyebrows recently, but the company says they can do any conversion, as well as armour-plate them should you stand out too much among rioters and terrorists.








Xenatec custom vehicle builders set up Dubai base | Drive Arabia

 

[K-A]

Interesting. I wonder if Xenatec used any extra HSS and/or used any UHSS on this car. They obviously went in for major surgery on the car and its safety cage, and had to reconstruct. One can only wonder how they went about it: Adding stronger steels in the "cage", or using the same grade, or even dropping the quality.

 

[Merc1]

Lol. Knowing what I know about safety, each of my points is tangible and important in the real world. And if I was spending the bucks, it would make a difference to me. Simple.

I have enough safety knowledge to have easily figured out the ballpark steel construction, and airbag use in the 'Bach, simply based off of its inception time, even before knowing the hard "HSS" use facts.

And my original point had nothing to do with real world. Only technical "advancements", which you agree with me, are less than the W221. Done.

Sorry for the further O/T. It'll be my last (glorious) post on this subject.

Well that just it, I don't think you know anything other than what you're able to google K/A. Seriously.

And the differences between the steel in Maybach or a S-Class isn't enough for anyone but you to be worried about. You can't and haven't proven that the difference is significant enough for anyone to be concerned about. Mercedes isn't, Maybach isn't because the Maybach is still on sale in 2011, so like I said in the beginning this problem you have is much ado about nothing based on nothing.


M

 

[K-A]

Well that just it, I don't think you know anything other than what you're able to google K/A. Seriously.

And the differences between the steel in Maybach or a S-Class isn't enough for anyone but you to be worried about. You can't and haven't proven that the difference is significant enough for anyone to be concerned about. Mercedes isn't, Maybach isn't because the Maybach is still on sale in 2011, so like I said in the beginning this problem you have is much ado about nothing based on nothing.


M

Do you have a problem with logic?

"Passing standards" and "exceeding standards" are completely different things. "Passing" means nothing, you can have a "Poor" rating from the IIHS, and still be allowed to be on sale. Mercedes obviously doesn't treat money like no object with the Maybach, as if they did, the car wouldn't have a 90's chassis and interior.

Educate yourself on steels please:

High-strength low-alloy steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength

There are plethora's of information available on steel use. And yes, I do demand the best in steel technology for a $400K car, and no, I'm not the only one. Someone else in this very Thread even, said a similar thing.

And no, I wasn't born with information on steel. I had to read and study, to know what I do. If you did the same, you'd easier comprehend my intellect on the subject. What I assumed from the Maybach was 100% spot-on, even before I got the facts.

I still do wonder if Xenatec puts more HSS in the body structure, however, to keep it in line with M-B's current offerings. I will predict they don't, and if they did, they'd surely charge a premium for it.

 

[coolraoul]

This Coupe looks quite nice, and I think pics don't tell half the story as an MM is reaaally huge IRL.

The silver front bumper+LEDs is not my taste, but the lower stance and modded rear w/o light-bar is a huge improvement.

I like it. I would still take a Bentley Brooklands over it, however the Rolls Coupe is no match imo with its goofy proportions and add-on roof.

Still... when will MM wake up and create something worth the badge? 4 or 5 years to go is way too long, especially given how light and unsubstantial the FL was...

 

[K-A]

Lol, I was hoping this one was put to rest.

Does anyone have my last post (that got Deleted) in their Inbox (from E-Mail Notification)? I'm too lazy to rewrite the points.

Oh well, I'll just accept that I'm driving a car with superior passive and active safety, and steel construction over a $500K Maybach, and let Merc1 somehow assume that it doesn't make a difference.

 

[Giannis]

Lol, I was hoping this one was put to rest.

Does anyone have my last post (that got Deleted) in their Inbox (from E-Mail Notification)? I'm too lazy to rewrite the points.

Oh well, I'll just accept that I'm driving a car with superior passive and active safety, and steel construction over a $500K Maybach, and let Merc1 somehow assume that it doesn't make a difference.

It's post #52, just two posts about your last one

 

[ZicZachZo]

For the sake of clarity, are we talking about the rear passengers in a Maybach or the poor schmuck that has to drive the rich passengers around? I think that we should start a NEW argument. Which rear seat passengers are more likely to buckle up? Those in the W212 or those in the Maybach?

 

[Giannis]

For comparison purposes, do you guys know how much the various types of UHSS cost ($ per ton)?

 

[Monster]

I will get back into this after I have more time.

Basically yes, the Maybach was designed using old technology and less advanced materials but since the Maybach is just so much longer than your average car, its structure has more length to absorb the crash energy than other smaller cars.

I will get into the material science behind steel later on but I can say unless we have actual crash test reports at hand we can only speculate.

 

[Wolfgang]

Some crash pics to study from media.daimler.com.

W240 Maybach roof drop test:
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/pix/445325_739770_4800_3255_448288a2002f3348.jpg
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/pix/445323_739763_4800_3248_448298a2002f3349.jpg

W212 E side pillar test:
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/pix/701113_1266073_3888_2592_08C639_052.jpg
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/pix/701114_1266076_3888_2592_08C639_062.jpg

 

[Merc1]

I will get into the material science behind steel later on but I can say unless we have actual crash test reports at hand we can only speculate.

Bingo, which is what I've been saying since this stupid debate got started in the first place.



M