Vs M5 (F10) vs. the Competition

[Giannis]

Can't you name some names? I want to be sure I am not in this group of people. A PM would be fine too, but better would be to act upon these things for once. Some here throw in personal attacks like it's normal:



Giannis, this is what K-A said regarding my post. I know it's silly for me to respond to it and I really don't care what is said (because it's K-A who said it and I mostly roll my eyes then), but it's a highly insulting personal attack.
I could go on, because a lot of personal attacks are thrown at me the last few days. Hopefully you've noticed, as I haven't made a deal out of it, not have I sent a PM or anything to a mod about it......but since you start this now...

No klier, I won't name any names. Neither in public, nor via PM. I am not accussing anybody certain. I am just asking to try and keep a certain level. Many personal attacks were thrown by many members in the last pages. But this being the Internal Combustion, the rules are not very strict.

Still, a discussion, is by nature a group activity, that's why I am asking you all to try and stay on topic and avoid personal attacks or nasty comments. I am sure that if I look, I'll find quite a few posts that are infraction-worth, but I am just asking to stay on topic.

That said, I am asking for the final time. Stay on topic!

 

[klier]

Ok well fine that settles it then. Hope we can all stay civil and hope we all (including me) refrain from going personal. These cars are just not worth it, and it's nitpicking on the highest level to begin with.

I believe I make a lot of die hard MB fanboys happy when they hear the M5 is not the end-to-all sports sedan on the market. The Panamera is at the current moment, I think we all get that by now..
It's just sad some of these MB fanboys aren't discussing the E63 AMG vs the M5, but are constantly saying the M5 isn't the best car in the segment. They come here solely to downplay the M5. With a Porsche no less, not even a car from their 'own' brand. I guess that allowed in Internal Combustion, I just think it's kind of sad when you do such a thing. And what's new btw, Porsches are always faster than Bimmers. On a track and anywhere else. They also are more exclusive and more expensive. And I still like BMW more

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Can I just say, viewing this from the outside in, it's embarrassing to read. No side is going to agree with the other so what's the point in wasting all this energy arguing with people you've never met, on the internet?

 

[klier]

^ With the Panamera vs the M5, I don't even take sides. The cars are different enough from each other for me that I don't care about the Panamera being 'faster' around a track, and 'faster' straight line. The M5 shines in other aspect, like driver involvement and crazy powerslides

I do begin to care when it's M5 vs it's typical competition. But thankfully not much needs to be said regarding M5 vs E63/CLS63. It's the story like always, AMG is good at it's thing and so is BMW.
I do agree it's embarrassing to read, even the things I write down myself. I should think before I write sometimes.

 

[mini_cooper4]

K-A let's smash our cars the same way and put an end to this "discussion"

 

[klier]

Yeah, you basically have an R8 platform Let's see what car is stronger

Note: I don't care about modern German car safety. They're all safe as far as I'm concerned. I only like safety gadgets, like Lane Departure Warning and (useless) stuff like that..
K-A seems to care a lot, and he's done some research regarding the subject so take that for what it is worth..

BTW it's funny to see people who genuinely care so much about safety often end up being MB fans....that has to say something at least
I mean, we never hear BMW fans complain about safety. Or rave about it. If it's brought to discussion, it's usually started by MB people.
And I have to say I'm pretty clueless regarding this subject....I drive a 1973 Alfa Spider when the weather is good. That car means instant-kill when something happens (no seatbelt, no roll cage, no impact zones, no airbags, no ESP, no NOTHING. Just a roaring engine and RWD It makes every modern car feel highly safe

 

[mini_cooper4]

Yeah, you basically have an R8 platform Let's see what car is stronger

Note: I don't care about modern German car safety. They're all safe as far as I'm concerned. I only like safety gadgets, like Lane Departure Warning and (useless) stuff like that..
K-A seems to care a lot, and he's done some research regarding the subject so take that for what it is worth..

BTW it's funny to see people who genuinely care so much about safety often end up being MB fans....that has to say something at least

Nonononono, I'm not sacrificing the Lambo I was talking about the 520d that I use as a daily

 

[Sunny]

What the pictures are not telling you is the results from the various accelerometers mounted at strategic locations to measure impacts/shocks and and distribution of the impact and perhaps deformations as well.

No shit, but then again who the heck needs these scientific methods when we have members who can look at pics and tell the same.

And it's for that exact reason why both need to co-exist. Although the Panamera is able to somewhat defy the laws of gravity it's not fully possible to cloak weight using clever chassis and suspension management. The M5 is probably the slightly more tossable car thanks to it's smaller dimensions and lower weight. The only way the Porsche can mimic the M5 experience would be if Porsche comes out with a GTS version that's possible stripped of luxury and features weight saving solutions like the Bentley Continental Supersport. However, such a car would probably be so expensive it would even make Goldman Sachs bankers cry.

I think a Panamera GTS would be NA/RWD and positioned below the Turbo and less powerful but more driver oriented. I think a
GTS would be awesome and probably the best Panamera and a better match for M5 price wise too. I dp hope they make one.

 

[klier]

I think a Panamera GTS would be NA/RWD and positioned below the Turbo and less powerful but more driver oriented. I think a
GTS would be awesome and probably the best Panamera and a better match for M5 price wise too. I dp hope they make one.

Why not? They did it with the Cayenne, and with the Cayenne it came after the Turbo, and it was less powerful (but more fun, I've driven the previous model extensively)
Just how many hp would a GTS version potentially have from the 4.8 V8? The current S already has 400 hp... A 450 hp GTS version NA/RWD would be absolutely the choice to make imo.

 

[K-A]

K-A let's smash our cars the same way and put an end to this "discussion"

Ahahaha, I like your style my friend.

We are willing to sacrifice a lot for and end-all-be-all answer to GCF discussion. We will post pictures, we will bring experts to analyze the after crash data, we will see who comes out less hurt and/or alive, and we will then jump on our cars roofs to see how much human force they can withstand.

 

[mini_cooper4]

Ahahaha, I like your style my friend.

We are willing to sacrifice a lot for and end-all-be-all answer to GCF discussion. We will post pictures, we will bring experts to analyze the after crash data, we will see who comes out less hurt and/or alive, and we will then jump on our cars roofs to see how much human force they can withstand.

If dead someone could throw our dead bodies on the roofs

 

[chonkoa]

No shit, but then again who the heck needs these scientific methods when we have members who can look at pics and tell the same.

.

Love your sarcasm.

 

[K-A]

If dead someone could throw our dead bodies on the roofs

LOL. Whatever it takes to get GCF the definitive answer!

 

[K-A]

No shit, but then again who the heck needs these scientific methods when we have members who can look at pics and tell the same.

You still fail to remember that it was you who brought Safety into the equation here. We started off talking about the strength and materials of the cars frames/bodies. In the IIHS Side Impact picture, there's only one conclusion that you can visually draw: The W212's cage is stronger and holds up much better in that particular impact. Does that mean a person will survive it better, or have less chance of injury? Perhaps or perhaps not, or does it mean that less load will be transferred to a human? Not necessarily, maybe yes, maybe no. However, the point of the picture is to further analyze the strength of the body/safety cage, in which it does accurately help. As do the roof strength numbers, while the Bodyshell Award (with a BMW 5 GT competing against it, for that matter) was pointed out to further validate the great bones of the E-Class, etc. etc.

If we want to talk about who will protect better/is safer, the body shell does also come into play as well, as do the IIHS Scores (of which the E and 5 perform on par with each other, save for the E's roof strength giving it an overall edge), as do the NCAP Scores (where the 5 scores better in terms of occupant protection), as do the pole test scores (that show comparable body intrusion, but apparently sides with the 5's ability to protect occupants from harmful load to the body), as do who transfers the negative energy better, allowing it to avoid the passengers (scores tell this story as well, however, real life crash data is what really tells the story, and that isn't available yet, and the 5 should do very well, while the E-Class is following 2 generations which scored much lower than it in Test Scores, but both were leading cars in terms of preventing fatalities every year).

Set emotion aside, and "fanboy this/that" nonsense, and read what I wrote calmly before you or anyone (looking at Ultimate Car Guy as well ) harps on it in a knee-jerk reaction, and realize that everything I said is true, fully objectively factual based on the information at hand.

 

[Sunny]

^And what you fail to realize is you cannot judge which car has better/stronger body looking a pic or two or even few numbers. I will just repeat what I wrote before -

BTW, my contention is not and was never that F10 has a stronger body, it is that we in public just don't have the information to say defnitley which one does. The strength of the body is not something simple that can be expressed by one number or captured by one pic. The body/chassis is a complicated mechanical object with many different parts/area all of which will have it's own mechanical properties and strengths which again will vary with the direction or nature of the force or stress that is applied. It would take a zillion measurements to express the full picture and even then I doubt one car will be ahead in every aspect. Roof strength is just one of them, so is torsional rigidity. To draw conclusion on which one has more advanced or stronger body all around based on just one number or image would be utmost idiotic

But you still seem to insist on doing exactly that, but that is your prerogative, so feel free, as it is mine to form an unflattering opinion about your intellectual capacity - and that is not a personal attack or flame - I just don't know how to express some one is being foolish in more euphemistic manner, so aplogies.

 

[K-A]

As expected, you failed the test. And you keep saying "a few pictures and numbers". What, the substantial visual footage I've showed, and the substantial Award that I keep pointing out? How about the substantial figures of Tests that I keep pointing out? What more do you need? Psychic powers? I'm sure I can find someone who will just charge you $5-$10 that can tell you which car has a stiffer body structure.

Fact: The W212's body/structure/safety cage, fared better than the F10 in the IIHS TestS (Side Impact & Roof Strength).

Fact: The W212 beat the BMW 5 GT in the CarBodyAward.

Fact: The W212 uses a higher % of HSS than the F10.

Fact: The W212 had less pedal travel and steering wheel movement than the F10 in the NCAP Tests.

MY OPINION: This information leads me to believe that the W212 has a superiorly stronger body than the F10 (Again, register that "Safer" hasn't come up here).

Fact: This doesn't fit your agenda, and you certainly won't comprehend it. So I'll move on. See how I can do that without lashing out with ad hominem? It's not that hard you know, and it says a lot about a persons intellectual capacity.

What say we declare me the winner here, and move on. Bahahaha.

 

[Sunny]

Fact: The W212's body/structure/safety cage, fared better than the F10 in the IIHS TestS (Side Impact & Roof Strength).

So that is one image and one number.

Fact: The W212 beat the BMW 5 GT in the CarBodyAward.

5GT is not F10, they don't have the same body.

Fact: The W212 uses a higher % of HSS than the F10.

What are those %s? Do you have the actual numbers?

Fact: The W212 had less pedal travel and steering wheel movement than the F10 in the NCAP Tests.

Yet you don't mention W212 had more A pillar travel than F10. Or that a Chevrolet and A4 did better than W212 in every aspect. The steering wheel and pedals are not even part of the body (or rigidly connected to it), where as the A pillar is.

You just pick and choose some random facts to show W212 is better while ignoring others that don't. All you really have is just one image (IIHS side impact) and one number (roof strength) and you some how expect others to believe that it is substantial proof.

 

[K-A]

Why are you dragging the A4 and a Chevy into this, it's only about the W212 and the F10. And the A4 and Chevy didn't "beat" the W212 in each one of those categories, if I remember correctly. And again, those are two (further) small points I was looking at when trying to rationalize the W212 having a stronger cage then the F10. And yes, you're right about the A-Pillar travel, I do forget to put that in, and obviously it's due to me rationalizing/concentrating on the W212 as having a stronger body, although I have cited the F10's strengths that I've found as well. As for the A-Pillar, I feel that one playing aspect in its lesser movement is the more raked A-Pillar, which as Giannis pointed out, weighs against it possibly more-so in a side-impact/roof crush/rollover.

As for HSS usage, the W212 boasts 78% of the body, which was a record when it was released (maybe/probably still to this day). Hearing that the F10 sacrificed on some low-weight/high tensile steels (hence the weight), I'm certain that it doesn't top the W212's 78%. If someone has proof of otherwise, color me majorly surprised and impressed.

The 5 GT is indeed a different car, but I would be hard pressed to believe that it is engineered in a lesser way, and I feel that it may be close enough to represent how the F10 would have fared. Also, the F10 did compete in the next year, and came in 3rd place (behind an Audi for one).

I don't expect anyone to believe that anything is substantial proof in an absolute way. All we have is the information at hand, and I'm not one who likes to sit back and not attempt to draw conclusions by studying that information at hand.

Maybe the F10's body is stronger than the W212's, maybe not, but the handfuls of "proof"/footage/statistics that I have, weigh in favor of the W212. Simple as that. I'm simply stating why I think that is, and yes, I do have some valid points, with said Awards/Stats/Pictures behind me.

 

[Sunny]

And the A4 and Chevy didn't "beat" the W212 in each one of those categories, if I remember correctly.

You remember wrong. Chevy does beat W212 is every category. And the A4 in all except for one.

And yes, you're right about the A-Pillar travel, I do forget to put that in, and obviously it's due to me rationalizing/concentrating on the W212 as having a stronger body,

Which brings me to the point, you already made your opinion W212 has stronger body and picking and choosing facts to rationalize that.

As for the A-Pillar, I feel that one playing aspect in its lesser movement is the more raked A-Pillar, which as Giannis pointed out, weighs against it possibly more-so in a side-impact/roof crush/rollover.

You also ignore that A pillar is actually part of the body while steering wheel and pedals are not part of the body nor rigidly connected to it.

As for HSS usage, the W212 boasts 78% of the body, which was a record when it was released (maybe/probably still to this day). Hearing that the F10 sacrificed on some low-weight/high tensile steels (hence the weight), I'm certain that it doesn't top the W212's 78%. If someone has proof of otherwise, color me majorly surprised and impressed.

Where is the proof body of W212 is 78% HSS? I am not being inflammatory, I am actually curious.

The 5 GT is indeed a different car, but I would be hard pressed to believe that it is engineered in a lesser way

Even if it is engineered exactly the same way, the shape plays an important factor. Why do you think sedans have substantially higher torsional rigidity than wagons. Heck, even optional folding rear seats have an effect on the torsional rigidity. Even E36 M3 sedan has higher torsional rigidity than the very similar E36 coupe. All of which again shows how flawed your logic is in jumping to conclusions from indirect comparisons.

I don't expect anyone to believe that anything is substantial proof in an absolute way.

Yet, two posts ago you were arguing that you showed substantial proof here is the exact quote -

What, the substantial visual footage I've showed, and the substantial Award that I keep pointing out? How about the substantial figures of Tests that I keep pointing out?

So now you are admitting you don't have substantial proof?

Maybe the F10's body is stronger than the W212's, maybe not, but the handfuls of "proof"/footage/statistics that I have, weigh in favor of the W212. Simple as that. I'm simply stating why I think that is, and yes, I do have some valid points, with Awards/Stats/Pictures behind me.

All you have is one image and one figure that is incontrovertible, I will give you that. Rest is flawed and indirect assumptions. At the same time you ignore other figures like torsional rigidity that F10 does better. Which brings me to my original point which is that we (or at least I) don't have enough information to form an opinion. It is got nothing to do with being a fan boy, I don't give a flying f*** if F10 has weaker or stronger body as long as it is safe enough.

 

[Human]

Yeah, you basically have an R8 platform Let's see what car is stronger

Note: I don't care about modern German car safety. They're all safe as far as I'm concerned. I only like safety gadgets, like Lane Departure Warning and (useless) stuff like that..
K-A seems to care a lot, and he's done some research regarding the subject so take that for what it is worth..
BTW it's funny to see people who genuinely care so much about safety often end up being MB fans....that has to say something at least
I mean, we never hear BMW fans complain about safety. Or rave about it. If it's brought to discussion, it's usually started by M
B people.
And I have to say I'm pretty clueless regarding this subject....I drive a 1973 Alfa Spider when the weather is good. That car means instant-kill when something happens (no seatbelt, no roll cage, no impact zones, no airbags, no ESP, no NOTHING. Just a roaring engine and RWD It makes every modern car feel highly safe

Just goes to show what huge effect marketing has on the consumer Back in the day when I drove the 3 pointed star (2000 W203 C180 Elegance & 2003 W203 C180 Kompressor) I was obsessed with safety and all that pioneered by M-B, I also owned these two C-Classes because my late dad was a Benz man. Earlier years he influenced me as child, I remember him lecturing me on how soft the gear lever-knob was on his W126 coupe a 560SEC and steering wheel boss for safety etc...back in 1991 that car was THE ultimate car and I was obviously of the opinion that ONLY M-B exists Then in 2004 I traded the C180 K to a BMW E46 325i Coupe...Never looked back and frankly about safety these days I give a sh!t, all cars have to comply with regulations etc. And BMW's always has been as safe as houses.