Vs M5 (F10) vs. the Competition
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Vehicle comparisons, matchups, debates, performance battles, and head-to-head discussions.
bum-man
Driving Dynamics Pro
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Hmmm, I guess we will have to agree to disagree because the F10 looks a little worse to me in that photo despite it being black and hiding the rest of the detail.
Zafiro
Supreme Roadmaster
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I don't know, do you care? To me you seem awfully concerned at playing it down yet still trying to participate in the discussion.
Im in here because I dont understand the fuss. I rather see we discuss M5 in this thread. Dont you?
Zafiro
Supreme Roadmaster
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Exactly! but I didnt know crash results are so important to how the M5 performs but okey, if thats your thing than I wont stand in your way. So its like this, Panamera performs better than M5 and E63 so I guess Panamera body stiffness is like 50.000 degrees and its rated 7 stars in Eurocap.
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Fortunately for the people who did the tests and were there when it was done, they don't have that problem and have access to all the details and according to them the F10 did better. I guess I am going to go with their opinion.
bum-man
Driving Dynamics Pro
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We really just should ask K-A. He can see with the naked eye what engineers need 10 years of study for.
I'm also quite sure his world will be coming to an end when he finally realizes his E-class is not the measure in high end safety in this class...
Hopefully the W222 will redeem MB a bit, because right now they make average cars at best, and there is not a single thing they do better than the competition. In not a single car they make.
Sad really when you think about it.
Panamera is not a sedan.
Panamera is in a class above (7er/S class)
Panamera has AWD
Panamera costs twice as much
Nice 'competition'
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Do I hear a faint "bzzzz"? I don't know if it's white noise or more valueless posts by our resident "bzzzz"'er. 
Well, firstly, yes I do agree with much of what you say. However, the picture Bum Man posted shows a more depressed cabin of the 5-Series compared to the E IMO (again, it looks like the roof gives easier), however, neither look exceptional, and the pole test really throws away any marginal differences in strength either cage has over the other. You claim that the conductors say that the 5 protected better in the pole test, and I'll take their word for it on that, if that's the case. However, the IIHS shows in pictures and statistics that the E's side is much stronger than the 5's, and will protect better in side collisions and rollovers. Part of this comes down to what you said about different angles showcasing different strengths of either car as well, I assume, etc.
All we have is the information at hand. And yes, there's enough of it to draw somewhat, yet not absolute, conclusions. Much of this is because of the mixed data. Based on my analyzing, and what I have seen, I feel the E has the superior body structure, and I'd feel safer in it, however, in reality, I'd feel safe in both, just as long as I don't roll the F10 over.
.... And hey, maybe if one day I get enough info that convinces me personally that the F10 has a safer/stronger body structure than the W212, maybe I'll just have to switch into one.... I guess I could deal with the homelier looks.
I don't know the F10 looks much worse here. Just because the metal sprung back out doesn't mean it did not protrude as far.
View attachment 9320
Well, firstly, yes I do agree with much of what you say. However, the picture Bum Man posted shows a more depressed cabin of the 5-Series compared to the E IMO (again, it looks like the roof gives easier), however, neither look exceptional, and the pole test really throws away any marginal differences in strength either cage has over the other. You claim that the conductors say that the 5 protected better in the pole test, and I'll take their word for it on that, if that's the case. However, the IIHS shows in pictures and statistics that the E's side is much stronger than the 5's, and will protect better in side collisions and rollovers. Part of this comes down to what you said about different angles showcasing different strengths of either car as well, I assume, etc.
All we have is the information at hand. And yes, there's enough of it to draw somewhat, yet not absolute, conclusions. Much of this is because of the mixed data. Based on my analyzing, and what I have seen, I feel the E has the superior body structure, and I'd feel safer in it, however, in reality, I'd feel safe in both, just as long as I don't roll the F10 over.
.... And hey, maybe if one day I get enough info that convinces me personally that the F10 has a safer/stronger body structure than the W212, maybe I'll just have to switch into one.... I guess I could deal with the homelier looks.
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- Giannis
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So in that case, when I look at both cars, I realize that neithers actual cabins are caved in all that substantially (they are definitely caved in, however, unlike how the W212 looks in a simulated SUV side impact, a'la IIHS, where it shows absolutely no deformation whatsoever, showing how much more "potent" a pole is).
.... Looking at the pics again, yes, the roofs and lower rockers only seem to bend in relatively "slightly", and the doors are what get completely compromised, but it would appear that the massive door flex-inside from both cars could potentially reach the driver.
.... Looking at the pics again, yes, the roofs and lower rockers only seem to bend in relatively "slightly", and the doors are what get completely compromised, but it would appear that the massive door flex-inside from both cars could potentially reach the driver.
chonkoa
Aerodynamic Artisan
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What the pictures are not telling you is the results from the various accelerometers mounted at strategic locations to measure impacts/shocks and and distribution of the impact and perhaps deformations as well.
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We really just should ask K-A. He can see with the naked eye what engineers need 10 years of study for.
I'm also quite sure his world will be coming to an end when he finally realizes his E-class is not the measure in high end safety in this class...
Hopefully the W222 will redeem MB a bit, because right now they make average cars at best, and there is not a single thing they do better than the competition. In not a single car they make.
Sad really when you think about it.
Panamera is not a sedan.
Panamera is in a class above (7er/S class)
Panamera has AWD
Panamera costs twice as much
Nice 'competition'
What a pile of BS Klier and nothing be excuses 101.
A Panamera does not cost twice as much and the Panamera was designed to take on the 7-Series/S-Class segment so it surely isn't in a segment above it. Where do you get this BS from?
That about MB not doing anything better than the competition in any car they make, takes the cake as you're officially out of it.
M
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Yes, that was another masterpiece post indeed, lol.
How is the Panamera not a Sedan, btw? WTF is it then? An alien? Is calling it a "non Sedan" a way to justify a claim that "Only BMW can build real Sports Sedans"? Lol.
4-Doors, generous headroom, spacious, framed doors.... Yup, sounds like a Sedan to me, and a damn good one at that!
How is the Panamera not a Sedan, btw? WTF is it then? An alien? Is calling it a "non Sedan" a way to justify a claim that "Only BMW can build real Sports Sedans"? Lol.
4-Doors, generous headroom, spacious, framed doors.... Yup, sounds like a Sedan to me, and a damn good one at that!
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I'll send a PM to Martinbo and ask what he thinks the Panamera is. Trust me, he will not say it's a sedan when he replies.
Without resorting to fanboyism, Panny imo faals in no man's land between sedan and coupe. It has a hatchback trunk and all. I wonder how Martin will name it....
And this has nothing to do with the M5, the M5 has not for a long time been the fastest or most powerful sedan. That's more like the S65 AMG, that's been among us for years and years...
Sheesh can't you chill out? Or learn how to read? I said the Panny is in 7er class. I meant a segment above 5er, and we even discussion this basic fact is just sad. There is no confusion whatsoever in what class the Panny falls, and it is the class of the S class. I know enough people who have one to know that.
And in a lot of markets a Panamera Turbo S is twice as expensive as an M5 or E63. Hence it being a full class above the 5er including M5. In my country (I know I know, don't start about it being a single market) a base Panamera S is more expensive than M5, but that has to do with emmision tax too...
Holland (both turbo, both same tax), a Turbo S costs 80k euro more than M5...that's where I get that bs from definitely a class up I'd say, though not even close to the S65 AMG. That's another 80k on the Turbo S
Typical who the people are who thank you for that post btw, and I'm so terribly sorry I said something bad about MB that you can't even take wi a pinch of salt here in Internal Combustion.
Without resorting to fanboyism, Panny imo faals in no man's land between sedan and coupe. It has a hatchback trunk and all. I wonder how Martin will name it....
And this has nothing to do with the M5, the M5 has not for a long time been the fastest or most powerful sedan. That's more like the S65 AMG, that's been among us for years and years...
Sheesh can't you chill out? Or learn how to read? I said the Panny is in 7er class. I meant a segment above 5er, and we even discussion this basic fact is just sad. There is no confusion whatsoever in what class the Panny falls, and it is the class of the S class. I know enough people who have one to know that.
And in a lot of markets a Panamera Turbo S is twice as expensive as an M5 or E63. Hence it being a full class above the 5er including M5. In my country (I know I know, don't start about it being a single market) a base Panamera S is more expensive than M5, but that has to do with emmision tax too...
Holland (both turbo, both same tax), a Turbo S costs 80k euro more than M5...that's where I get that bs from
definitely a class up I'd say, though not even close to the S65 AMG. That's another 80k on the Turbo S Typical who the people are who thank you for that post btw, and I'm so terribly sorry I said something bad about MB that you can't even take wi a pinch of salt here in Internal Combustion.
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We really just should ask K-A. He can see with the naked eye what engineers need 10 years of study for.
I'm also quite sure his world will be coming to an end when he finally realizes his E-class is not the measure in high end safety in this class...
Hopefully the W222 will redeem MB a bit, because right now they make average cars at best, and there is not a single thing they do better than the competition. In not a single car they make.
Sad really when you think about it.
Panamera is not a sedan.
Panamera is in a class above (7er/S class)
Panamera has AWD
Panamera costs twice as much
Nice 'competition'
Klier my friend. I'm dissapointed to see that your dislike for the Panamera has been reignited. Before it was launched you crucified it for looking bulky and dismissed any of Porsche's claims that it was going to be comfortable as an S-Class and almost fast as a 911. What is there not to like about it. It's a celebration of German engineering. The car is so wrong for many reasons but yet so awesomely right. It's like ice cream with ketchup, Bacon with banana, a lady with a male reproductive organ but can still give birth. It's almost a work of Satan but for what it achieves it doesn't make the M5 any less desirable. The M5 is still great in its own sense but no longer at the pinnacle of what a perfectly comfortable family saloon can achieve.
PS. That was one hell of a post you made there. Certainly one of your most memorable now. Hall of fame or hall of shame, you choose
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Luw, mate, I don't know why everyone is falling over me with that post.
- Panamera is hatchback-ish, not a real sedan. I"m not disapproving, I just think it's not a sedan, like an A6, C-class or 7er. It's hella close to a sedan though and comparing it with a sedan is ok in my book. Calling it a sedan just isn't.
- Panny is much more expensive than M5. This is also no complaint, just a fact.
- I no not dislike the Panny as a car, just it's looks. I've driven the Panamera S and I know how awesome the package is as a whole.
- Panny falls in 7er class. It appears I wasn't entirely clear on that one...
- It has AWD which makes it much more effective straight line AND on a track than a RWD sedan like XF-R, E63, CTS-V and M5
I have nothing against the Panamera and I am perfectly capable of admitting the Panny is faster than the M5.
According to most reviews the M5 is still more fun to drive to, with more involvement and less numb steering...
You guys should know by know that I'm all about the hyperbole statements. I'll try to lessen that as most here can't quite handle it...
- Panamera is hatchback-ish, not a real sedan. I"m not disapproving, I just think it's not a sedan, like an A6, C-class or 7er. It's hella close to a sedan though and comparing it with a sedan is ok in my book. Calling it a sedan just isn't.
- Panny is much more expensive than M5. This is also no complaint, just a fact.
- I no not dislike the Panny as a car, just it's looks. I've driven the Panamera S and I know how awesome the package is as a whole.
- Panny falls in 7er class. It appears I wasn't entirely clear on that one...
- It has AWD which makes it much more effective straight line AND on a track than a RWD sedan like XF-R, E63, CTS-V and M5
I have nothing against the Panamera and I am perfectly capable of admitting the Panny is faster than the M5.
According to most reviews the M5 is still more fun to drive to, with more involvement and less numb steering...
You guys should know by know that I'm all about the hyperbole statements. I'll try to lessen that as most here can't quite handle it...
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And it's for that exact reason why both need to co-exist. Although the Panamera is able to somewhat defy the laws of gravity it's not fully possible to cloak weight using clever chassis and suspension management. The M5 is probably the slightly more tossable car thanks to it's smaller dimensions and lower weight. The only way the Porsche can mimic the M5 experience would be if Porsche comes out with a GTS version that's possible stripped of luxury and features weight saving solutions like the Bentley Continental Supersport. However, such a car would probably be so expensive it would even make Goldman Sachs bankers cry.
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Can't you name some names? I want to be sure I am not in this group of people. A PM would be fine too, but better would be to act upon these things for once. Some here throw in personal attacks like it's normal:
Do I hear a faint "bzzzz"? I don't know if it's white noise or more valueless posts by our resident "bzzzz"'er.
Giannis, this is what K-A said regarding my post. I know it's silly for me to respond to it and I really don't care what is said (because it's K-A who said it), but it's a highly insulting personal attack.
I could go on, because a lot of personal attacks are thrown at me the last few days. Hopefully you've noticed, as I haven't made a deal out of it, not have I sent a PM or anything to a mod about it......but since you start this now...
