Kilcrohane's view of the Automotive Industry and Global Economy

[rollo]

Good grief! This is the same chap who suggested that the US $ was in the toilet and was enamored with the Russian ruble. Why the fuss?

 

[Kilcrohane]

Okay, you want something more car/car industry specific? How about the seemingly little-noticed new engines from Ford?

The new, 2nd Gen. Ford Edge SUV announced yesterday hasn't created much interest here, but it is very significant for its new engines, which show how quickly the industry leaders are moving in this area, and why JLR, Ford's soon to be ex-4 cylinder engine customer, is being so quickly left behind.

Ford is introducing a new 2.0-litre diesel engine with the new Edge, to replace the PSA-designed, Ford Dagenham built 'DW12' 2.2-litre one, which currently goes into the 2007-2014 Ford Mondeo, Land Rover Freelander/LR2, Range Rover Evoque, and Jaguar XF, and possibly the 2015 Land Rover Discovery Sport.

The 'DW12' dates back to 2000, a 14 years old design.

The new Ford 'Duratorq' 2-litre diesel, a Ford-only project, not shared with PSA, and not a customer engine for JLR, is very competitive with the current industry's best, producing 210 PS and 450 Nm in its twin turbo variant, and very efficient, emitting <160 g/km CO2 in the 2-tonne, 4WD, 4.8m long Ford Edge, with the 6-speed double-clutch gearbox.

That compares very well with the just introduced, similar internal space, 2.1-tonne BMW X5 25d xDrive, with a similar 2-litre twin-turbo diesel, making 218 PS/450Nm and emitting 156g/km CO2, even though it has the advantage of the ZF 8-speed 'box.

Let's see how this new Ford diesel stacks up against industry-leading 4-cyl. diesels:

240 PS - the power of the EA288 2-litre bi-turbo diesel in the new B8 Passat, on-sale autumn 2014
230 PS - the top power level of Volvo's new 'D5' 2-litre Drive-E diesel engine, on-sale autumn 2014
218 PS - the power of the current 'champion' of the diesel 2-litre class, the BMW 'N47' twin-turbo
210 PS - the new Ford 2-litre 'Duratorq' diesel, twin-turbo, due 2015
204 PS - the top power level of the Mercedes OM651 2.1-litres twin-turbo diesel
200 PS - the top power level of the PSA/Ford 'DW12' 2.2-litre diesel

With the new Edge Ford is also introducing a new 2-litre petrol EcoBoost, that will replace the one sold to JLR, that goes in the Freelander, Evoque, XF and XJ, the one bedeviled by turbo lag, thirst, lack of refinement and inherent design faults, like the 'limp-home' intercooler.

The Edge will also get the brand new 2.7-litre V6 petrol EcoBoost, that is due to launch in the new F-150 truck this year, with over 300 hp, and proves that the Ford Mondeo/Ford Fusion/'EUCD'/'CD4', which serves as the platform for the 2nd gen. Edge, and as 'EUCD' under the R/R Evoque, Freelander and 2015 Discovery Sport, can take a more powerful six cylinder engine, which is what many owners of the Range Rover Evoque have been crying out for, when comparing to six-cylinder diesel/petrol offerings of X3s, Q5s, GLKs and so on, but were told the Evoque engine bay couldn't take a JLR V6 - the petrol one with 8 cylinders.

The point is, the new Edge is very significant because it shows that Ford has reacted to the very fast moving developments in the still core ICEs, with for instance the first gen, 2-litre EcoBoost being effectively binned after barely 4 years since introduction, in 2011, due to the rapid rate of technological improvement of competitors' offerings, like the BMW 'N20' and VAG 'EA888', and so on, and this leaves smaller players, like JLR, who once could shelter under the skirts of the Ford parent, and then as privileged engine customer, extremely exposed, because these engine programs cost so much, take a long time to do, and are often outdated shortly after being launched in the marketplace, as the 1st gen. EcoBoost shows, and suggests that the JLR Ingenium when it does come, if it does come, in the first diesel variant, in 2015, may already be well behind the pace of the industry pace-setters, like currently Volvo and VAG.

Basically, this news of new engines from Ford, marking a break from PSA's once-competitive diesels, little highlighted under the news of the new Edge itself, is another indication of how hard it is for smaller players to keep up with the big boys, especially if they haven't got a generous parent like Volvo with Geely, and as I said, suggest the long-awaited 'Ingenium' when it comes may well be something of a dud, due to the extremely prolonged gestation, and the quantum nature of development in engine tech, which rewards late design/concept 'freeze', and swift development thereafter, and/or a risk-taking approach, like that of Volvo, who have gambled on somewhat untested and expensive tech from Denso, their supplier partner, to aid a quantum leap in efficiency due to advanced injector/sensor technology.

 

[KiwiRob]

I don't know if you've actually driven a new Volvo with the Drive E diesel, I'm assuming you haven't, I have, it's rough, sounds terrible and will probably be the nail in the coffin for Volvo, along with the all 4 cylinder strategy. It is not the 5 cylinder diesel, which I thought was a fantastic engine, best diesel I've owned to date.

 

[Kilcrohane]

the Drive E diesel, it's rough, sounds terrible and will probably be the nail in the coffin for Volvo

good job you're not in a position of control at Volvo then. Volvo is already on the cusp of a major upturn in sales, as its long-planned overhaul of platforms and powertrains comes to fruition. The only blackspot at the moment is the U.S., but the new XC90 will take care of that problem.

As for nails in coffins, maybe you're right, but the coffin in question is certainly not Volvo's, maybe a bit closer to home - west, not east, across the North Sea.

 

[mini_cooper4]

I don't know if you've actually driven a new Volvo with the Drive E diesel, I'm assuming you haven't, I have, it's rough, sounds terrible and will probably be the nail in the coffin for Volvo, along with the all 4 cylinder strategy. It is not the 5 cylinder diesel, which I thought was a fantastic engine, best diesel I've owned to date.

Never owned a Diesel Bimmer?
The 5pot diesel ain't bad but it's far from great especially coupled with Volvo's anti-dynamic system.

 

[KiwiRob]

good job you're not in a position of control at Volvo then. Volvo is already on the cusp of a major upturn in sales, as its long-planned overhaul of platforms and powertrains comes to fruition. The only blackspot at the moment is the U.S., but the new XC90 will take care of that problem.

As for nails in coffins, maybe you're right, but the coffin in question is certainly not Volvo's, maybe a bit closer to home - west, not east, across the North Sea.

I think I am right, I believe that Volvo will struggle to sell 4 cylinder XC90's in the US, it's already struggling to sell S60's in the US, something like 155 days to move each car.

Never owned a Diesel Bimmer?
The 5pot diesel ain't bad but it's far from great especially coupled with Volvo's anti-dynamic system.

I've owned two cars with BMW diesels, an E91 3er which I traded for a 2.4D V70, where straight off the bat I far preferred the D5 engine to the BMW 4. And I had a MINI Countryman with the 1.6D engine, that engine is a pig, the PSA/Ford engine in my previous Clubman was quieter, smoother and significantly more economical, I'm now far happier with my A1 Sportback, it's a better car IMO.

 

[mini_cooper4]

I think I am right, I believe that Volvo will struggle to sell 4 cylinder XC90's in the US, it's already struggling to sell S60's in the US, something like 155 days to move each car.



I've owned two cars with BMW diesels, an E91 3er which I traded for a 2.4D V70, where straight off the bat I far preferred the D5 engine to the BMW 4. And I had a MINI Countryman with the 1.6D engine, that engine is a pig, the PSA/Ford engine in my previous Clubman was quieter, smoother and significantly more economical, I'm now far happier with my A1 Sportback, it's a better car IMO.

The 1.6D is a different story. Was your E91 320d? If so it is indeed far better than Volvo's D5. BMW's 4 cylinder diesel engines have been industry leading for almost a decade now.

 

[DblPen]

The 1.6D is a different story. Was your E91 320d? If so it is indeed far better than Volvo's D5. BMW's 4 cylinder diesel engines have been industry leading for almost a decade now.

Overall - absolutely, but i dont think they are renown for its NVH, maybe it was a factor why he didnt like it

 

[mini_cooper4]

Overall - absolutely, but i dont think they are renown for its NVH, maybe it was a factor why he didnt like it

Could be it but I still think they are great on all fronts. Maybe not best in every category but still best overall as you said

 

[Kilcrohane]

^ Yes, current capacities are all used up at present and can't be further increased. That's why they are adding more lines, like in Decherd, Beijing and Aguascalientes.

Interesting:

So it took Infiniti(Nissan) just 2 years from construction start to volume production, of what looks like a comparable engine facility to JLR's UK Wolverhampton one for the new Ingenium engine, yet that plant will not start volume production till some unspecified time in 2015, some 3 years after construction started and 4 years after the initial announcement, and the Infiniti plant appears to be costing about one-third of the JLR one - $319m to ~£500m - and around three to four times as productive - 400 heads for 250k engines/yr to JLR's 1,400 heads* for a similar number of similar engines. Very interesting.

*http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/jaguar/85769/jaguar-land-rover-engine-plant-set-employ-1400

 

[KiwiRob]

The 1.6D is a different story. Was your E91 320d? If so it is indeed far better than Volvo's D5. BMW's 4 cylinder diesel engines have been industry leading for almost a decade now.

It was, the engine was rough running, lots of vibration, it was economical, and that's about it. The Volvo 5 was smoother, sounded better.

 

[mini_cooper4]

It was, the engine was rough running, lots of vibration, it was economical, and that's about it. The Volvo 5 was smoother, sounded better.

My ex had a D5 Volvo. I agree that it's smooth in delivery but to me it feels weak

 

[Monster]

Kilcrohane has been sent away to test drive some JLR vehicles, he will not return to this forum ever again.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Kilcrohane has been sent away to test drive some JLR vehicles, he will not return to this forum ever again.

 

[Deleted member 25]

Why ?

Kilcrohane has been sent away to test drive some JLR vehicles, he will not return to this forum ever again.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Why ?

I would have thought that was patently obvious. He's lucky he survived so long for some of the xenophobic and generally abusive posts he made. He's been banned from lots of other forums across the 'net, so it was only a matter of time.

 

[Monster]

Why ?

Multiple violation of forum rules. This is the offending post.

http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...-bmw-320d-vs-audi-a4.51028/page-2#post-702932

We have given him multiple chances, warnings, etc yet he did not listen. He doesn't want to stay so we aren't going to stop him from doing so.

 

[KiwiRob]

My ex had a D5 Volvo. I agree that it's smooth in delivery but to me it feels weak

The 2.0 5 cylinder 163hp version is a weak engine, the 174hp and 215hp 2.4 D5 engines were/are strong.

 

[mini_cooper4]

The 2.0 5 cylinder 163hp version is a weak engine, the 174hp and 215hp 2.4 D5 engines were/are strong.

2.4 D5 with 185HP is what she had and it still felt weak.

 

[Rainer271]

I would say "disagree" is the wrong voting because mini-cooper wrote the motor felt weak. It's only a subjective impression and nobody else can judge this subjective feeling. I hope I have found the right words to explain what I mean.