M3/M4 E92 M3 discussion thread II

[south]

PS: regarding some features (eg HUD, EDC, CF roof etc) I was told this: "Who would then buy an M5 / M6 if one can get same features on a cheaper M3 with only 80hp less, yet lighter & agiler?"

I think my sources made a point.

That's basically right, but two of the 3 features you mentioned will be on the M3, namely EDC and most probably also the CF roof. Maybe both of them are options, but they're available. IMHO M5/M6 and M3 are two different car classes for two different audiences. The M3 has always been the most sportiest car of the M range (besides CSL range). So all the features regarding handling and car weight should be there on the M3.
People don't buy a M5 for being better than a M3 in terms of handling and sportiness, they buy it because they want a large sedan, a large GT (M6), because of the V10 and most probably the buy an M5 or M6 because they can afford one...
With your points it would be impossible for BMW to introduce the new DSG in the M3 because it's better than M5's SMG...

Best regards, south

 

[PanterroR]

People don't buy a M5 for being better than a M3 in terms of handling and sportiness, they buy it because they want a large sedan, a large GT (M6), because of the V10 and most probably the buy an M5 or M6 because they can afford one...
With your points it would be impossible for BMW to introduce the new DSG in the M3 because it's better than M5's SMG...

Best regards, south

Makes a lot of sense...

We'll see what Eni say on this one...

Good post, south!

 

[EnI]

Mind that BMW are trying to give every car its own personality - not only with design, but also with different chassis / drivetrain settings, engines, some equipment / features. Same applies to M cars.

M6 & M5 will remain the kings - showing M tour de force & tech (until M7 & Z8M come).

M3 (all versions) are positioned below M5 / M6 in every respect.

Of course M3 is more nimble & agile since it's smaller & lighter. And size + weight are also the reasons 5er / 6er need some more electronic help to fight the laws of physics, while no need for 3er to get that help.

Also: M3 is more hardcore, while M5 / M6 also need some more comfortable settings.

And that will be a future path: top-end M cars (eg. M5, M6, M7, Z8M, X6M) will be more tour-de-tech/force, and more comfortable, while M3 - Z4M - X4M line will be more hardcore performance cars. Entry M2 / Z2M line is planned to address the purists (eg. manual gearbox only, low weight, almost no electronic help, etc) - BMW essentials (eg. M3 E30).

 

[ILC32]

Mind that BMW are trying to give every car its own personality - not only with design, but also with different chassis / drivetrain settings, engines, some equipment / features. Same applies to M cars.

M6 & M5 will remain the kings - showing M tour de force & tech (until M7 & Z8M come).

M3 (all versions) are positioned below M5 / M6 in every respect.

Of course M3 is more nimble & agile since it's smaller & lighter. And size + weight are also the reasons 5er / 6er need some more electronic help to fight the laws of physics, while no need for 3er to get that help.

Also: M3 is more hardcore, while M5 / M6 also need some more comfortable settings.

And that will be a future path: top-end M cars (eg. M5, M6, M7, Z8M, X6M) will be more tour-de-tech/force, and more comfortable, while M3 - Z4M - X4M line will be more hardcore performance cars. Entry M2 / Z2M line is planned to address the purists (eg. manual gearbox only, low weight, almost no electronic help, etc) - BMW essentials (eg. M3 E30).

Thanks for the interesting info. Reading between the lines, it sounds as if the M3 will complete its transformation into a GT with this generation, leaving the M2 to carry the flag as the true hardcore machine. It is unfortunate that the M3 is no longer directed at purists.

It is also unfortunate that BMW insists that the M3 be positioned "below" the M5 and M6 "in every respect." If that includes overall performance, then the standard has already been set by the M6 and M5, and the question becomes how far below that standard the M3 and M2 will be positioned in order to "protect" the upper range models.

 

[Zafiro]

 

[chonkoa]

I was wondering, is there a reason why the new M3 is getting 426hp? Is it some kind of celebration for something. I mean there was a reason why BMW claim the M5 has 507hp so I figure same thing for the new M3.

If you look at it in the context of engineering feats, I would say:yes it is, if it is 4.0 litre engine. That would be on HP per litre basis better than the predecessor. E46 104 HP/litre vs E9X 106 HP/litre. If you also consider the fact that S54B32 has won several awards, and this S65 engine will probably better it based on the same metrix.
So if it is a 4 litre engine delivering 426 HP, I would say it is impressive.

 

[NarutoRamen]

Definitely Chonkoa, 426 out of the 4.0l is definitely amazing, especially considering BMW's track record they are going to get this much power out reliabily. By the way, 426hp= 420hp in SAE as Eni said, so that means the new engine is putting out 105hp per liter.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Thanks for the interesting info. Reading between the lines, it sounds as if the M3 will complete its transformation into a GT with this generation, leaving the M2 to carry the flag as the true hardcore machine. It is unfortunate that the M3 is no longer directed at purists.

It is also unfortunate that BMW insists that the M3 be positioned "below" the M5 and M6 "in every respect." If that includes overall performance, then the standard has already been set by the M6 and M5, and the question becomes how far below that standard the M3 and M2 will be positioned in order to "protect" the upper range models.

I wouldn't be too worried about the M3 becoming a pure GT car. The E46 M3 was never a good GT car (it's not comfortable enough for long drives), but it was an awesome performance/sports car for the track that you can drive on the road.

Many people are concerned about the "purist" approach, and what that means to most people is a stick shift manual transmission, RWD, minimal electronic aids, and minimal weight. For most people, cars like the Lotus Elise is the "purest" you can get these days. If that's what you're looking for, the M3 is not for you. Let the M2 or whatever lower end model BMW M is making take on that market. The standard M3 has to beat the top of the line C-AMG car, top of the line RS4, and top of the line IS-F, which are not bare bones cars.

I have no doubt the new M3 will totally eclipse the performance of the E46 M3 and will be much more "hardcore" than its main competition (C63 AMG, RS4, and IS-F). It may or may not be as fast as the E60 M5 in a straight line, but it will definitely handle a lot better. If what people are saying are true, then the next M3 will have performance that will match or beat the Porsche 911, which is all time greatest sports car ever made, IMO.

Just like the E46 M3 outperformed the E39 M5 on a track, the E92 M3 may very well outperform the E60 M5 in the same way.

 

[Deutsch]

Please continue discussion on the E92 M3 here:

http://www.germancarforum.com/showthread.php?t=10526

 

[swamp2]

Re: Hud

Sorry, no real source this time! However I'm quite sure!
The fact the HUD isn't available on standard E92 didn't make it very likely to be in the M3. As I've heard/read (thought it was here, don't find it anymore) is the current generation of HUD to big to fit in E9x, maybe the next generation HUD will be smaller.
So again: question is, where are the shift lights

Best regards, south

It does make sense to keep HUD as M5 only and have things like EDC in the M3. However, M3 drivers need their eyes on the road and need shift lights! Perhaps it will be just like E46 M3. I'm still really hoping for HUD.

 

[swamp2]

M5 Not > M3!

It is also unfortunate that BMW insists that the M3 be positioned "below" the M5 and M6 "in every respect." If that includes overall performance, then the standard has already been set by the M6 and M5, and the question becomes how far below that standard the M3 and M2 will be positioned in order to "protect" the upper range models.

M3 has traditionally been faster than M5 in the lower speeds, 0-60 (E46 M3 0-60 < E39 M5 0-60), maybe 0-100 and always faster around the track. I am sure this will continue with the new M3. BMW marketing may need to put a totalitarian spin on which car is "better" or "above" but we all know the M3 is always more of a sports car and more of a performer in most ways. +1 on comment below about M3 eclipsing 911, if this is indeed true we have nothing to worry about. The power to weight ratio of the new M3 supports the besting of the 911 as well.

 

[ILC32]

Re: Hud

It does make sense to keep HUD as M5 only and have things like EDC in the M3. However, M3 drivers need their eyes on the road and need shift lights! Perhaps it will be just like E46 M3. I'm still really hoping for HUD.

I agree about the HUD. Its a fantastic feature in the M5. . . absolutely great for keeping your head up and focussed on the road/track. In the E46M3 on the track, you have to be attuned to engine pitch or keep the lights in the tach in your peripheral vision. Not a big deal, but a HUD would be better!

 

[Deutsch]

Please continue discussion on the E92 M3 here:

http://www.germancarforum.com/showthread.php?t=10526