Chris Harris concerned about M and its future

[chonkoa]

will the next M5 have just 5200 RPM ???? sorry for the question but i want to know =D

I don't know but my guess is no.

 

[Zafiro]

if the next M5 rev only 5200 rpm, then I´m moving to Alaska and living among bears.

 

[coolraoul]

Why 5200? Where does that number comes from?

No, no way. 5200 is way too low. Turbo engines generally rev till 6500/7000rpm, it's above that that it becomes problematic.

5200 is only the redline of the 50 years old Bentley V8 of the Arnage. The M5 will clearly rev wayy more than just 5200rpm!

 

[Mr Robert]

I think that 5,250 figure is a "straight out of the hat" example used in a previous post about how the rpm works with power.

There is no way even BMW would release a car like the M5 with an engine that revs as happlily as a semi-modern diesel.

 

[EnI]

Eg. the S63B44 engine (X5 / X6 M) reaches max power of 555HP @ 6,000rpm, while max. rpm (engine cut off) is @ 6,800rpm.

So, hardly a low-rev engine.

Sure it's not 8,250 rpm max, but ... I guess 6,800 rpm is more than enough for all the engine screaming & rumbling.

 

[AdvEvo]

you can have tons of torque because of turbo. But nothing feels as special as 8400 rpm in the M3 or even more in a porsche GT3.

 

[klier]

Which is exactly what I was saying and what Klier fails to grasp in his post above.

I grasp it alright, I just don't agree with it. BMW's sporty image will only grow to the average Joe because of the X5 and X6 M. Some of you are making it sound as if BMW will stop making M cars after the X5 and X6 or something

 

[Mr Robert]

Some of you are making it sound as if BMW will stop making M cars after the X5 and X6 or something

Nope, they have just stopped making/decided not to make, the best ones.

 

[klier]

Like which ones??? When the E85 Z4 was launched they officially said there wouldn't be a coupé and M version...and look what happened. And the E46 M3 CSL came with the facelift of the E46 coupé, so we might even see the E92 M3 CSL next year, with the facelift of the coupé.
The only M car missing right now would be the 1er M, but a 326 hp Performance 135i with all performance options is pretty close to that...

Next M3, next M5, next gen 1er M, upcoming Performance line for Z4,, etc. are all going to be wonderful...what's wrong with the future??? Soon we even have an M pack for the 7er, that's a first too! And a 4 cylinder M engine for the Z2 in the future surely??

 

[Betty Swollocks]

so we might even see the E92 M3 CSL next year, with the facelift of the coupé.

Statements like this just show how naive you are. The E92 M3, until recently, has not been selling well. The world's financial situation hasn't helped at all, but I know at least in the UK (third biggest market for M), you could pick up an M3 at 10K off list with only a few hundred miles on the clock. It was a really dire situation for BMW UK. Due to cutting off supply, the excess of M3's has been reduced substantially. But do you seriously think BMW would now think about a CSL version? The E46 CSL version was a limited edition and the main reason for building it was to see if people would pay more for less (in effect), and to develop techniques for intergrating new technologies on a mass scale i.e. CFRP roof which were later incorporated into the M6 and M3.

By the way. The E46 CSL did not sell well at all with dealers unable to shift them. Now the values have held up pretty well, but this was not the case when they were released. And that was into a far more financially healthy world.

Do you seriously think there is a market at the moment for a GBP70K+ M3? The market for ANY GBP70K car is small. When that car is aimed at a very specific target market, and the development costs are very high (the M3 already has technologies like CFRP), releasing it now would be suicidal. Also Scott and ENI are very quick to give away development info, yet they've never mentioned a CSL.

Soon we even have an M pack for the 7er, that's a first too!

Do you remember when it was simply called the "Sport" pack? Yet another example of BMW plundering the M brand.

 

[klier]

I think that when they make 1500 E92 M3 CSL, they will be solt relatively easy. There still are a lot of rich people, and BMW is a hot brand.
But I am naive yes

 

[Mr Robert]

As BMW, apparently, is not a brand that can produce and sell a sportscar like the CSL just for the sake of it, there must be some sort of technology that can be researched along with it as a bouns. The E46 CSL introduced the CF roof and some other weight saving technologies. What is next? What will they do? And will the car be light enough for it to earn the CSL badge?

The sales of 1,400 cars really does not tell me much, I don't know how much BMW spent during development of the last CSL, and I do not know what technologies was researched during this development.

 

[martinbo]

The E46 CSL down here in SA (a small country with a high percentage of affluent car buyers relative to the total market size) was a sales success. BMW sold each and every one of them to supposed discerning and deserving clientele.

The CSL was however not a customer success story. Many put their names down and got more (or less as Betty astutely put it) for their money. Every CSL was ordered with full climate control and a premium sound system - because that's what customers wanted - and this just goes to prove how misguided the majority of buyers expectations were. It was all about owning the latest and greatest from a poseur perspective. And, when many of the original buyers ended being surprised and disappointed by the CSL's uncompromising hardcore nature they traded them in in droves. Consequently, residual value of the CSL dropped by half in a matter of months. [Leaving a number on sale with low mileage as absolute bargains for the true afficionados]

The CSL concept, as inspiring as it is for internet car forum junkies is just too hardcore and uncompromising to be viable for a car maker like BMW in an economic downturn.
Furthermore, with the advancements made in vehicle manufacture and mechanical technology, an E92 comes with a CFRP roof as standard and with a quicker, smoother M-DCT transmission on the spec-sheet. So now, it is that much harder for BMW to differentiate a CSL model from an exisiting E92.

As for the lovely debate around turbo's and engine rpm - well I've long been a fan of both approaches given the different character of the experience. The whole idea around high-revving NA engines is to make them rev in order to make the desired power out of the available torque capability of the engine.
Because turbo's introduce more torque through volumetric efficiency, the need for the engine to be high-revving is largely negated - just apply the maths according to the formula described by EnI earlier in this thread.

 

[Mr Robert]

Consequently, residual value of the CSL dropped by half in a matter of months. [Leaving a number on sale with low mileage as absolute bargains for the true afficionados]

The CSL concept, as inspiring as it is for internet car forum junkies is just too hardcore and uncompromising to be viable for a car maker like BMW in an economic downturn.

We had a whole different story up here. Sales were a bit slow. Not that slow, all but a very few was sold directly to customers and those few that remained at the dealers did so for variuos reasons.

Also, here the cars were not allways fully loaded. Many had neither full clima nor sound system. Many were driven hard and long. It is not at all uncommon to see examples with an exess of 60,000 kms on the clock. About 10,000 kms a year.

Resale value for the CSL, at least here in Sweden, and in many respects also in Germany, are quite good. In general, a car sold in Sweden has lost less than 30% of its value in 5-6 years.

 

[martinbo]

Well that's the way it should be Dr.D. Moderate initial depreciation followed by a levelling period before the car finds its way into icon status as a collectable.

Icons and collectables, as desirable as they are, do nothing for the current balance sheet I'm afraid. What BMW needs now is a range of performance vehicles that are presently relevant, profitable and sustainable. If this happens to include M cars that are turbocharged and only rev to 7000 rpm then many [brainwashed by BMW's own doing] BMW fans are set to be disappointed. It's neither right nor wrong - just sad that it had to come to this.

 

[gnx]

Do you guys, the older ones at least, remember the 1988 clubsport carrera that was a stripped down CHEAPER alternative to the 911 Carrera?
That would have been a nice alternative for the e9X...

And why is there such a resentment to the X6M? M cars need to be kind of wacky...I mean the X6 is what, huge, and the M5 is NOT? Do you guys track your M5s, or, do you drive going sideways in a 1.9 ton car with your children vomiting all over the back?

I don't think that BMW should be dogmatic with anything. But since marketing pushes varying preferences in different directions from time to time, there should be a constant with the M. Small cars with big (in terms of performance) engines. The most enduring concept that M has chosen to sidestep. Aone series M, a zed M, even for e92 M money etc

 

[Mr Robert]

Do you guys, the older ones at least, remember the 1988 clubsport carrera that was a stripped down CHEAPER alternative to the 911 Carrera?
That would have been a nice alternative for the e9X...

Mitsubishi did/does the same with its RS-models. Not likely to happen in the BMW case.

 

[Mr Robert]

Icons and collectables, as desirable as they are, do nothing for the current balance sheet I'm afraid. What BMW needs now is a range of performance vehicles that are presently relevant, profitable and sustainable. If this happens to include M cars that are turbocharged and only rev to 7000 rpm then many [brainwashed by BMW's own doing] BMW fans are set to be disappointed. It's neither right nor wrong - just sad that it had to come to this.

You are abviously right. This is what is going to happen and BMW has decided that a new CSL is not profitable enough and does nothing to improve the image of BMW so it should not be done.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

there must be some sort of technology that can be researched along with it as a bouns. The E46 CSL introduced the CF roof and some other weight saving technologies. What is next? What will they do?

I suppose the next major technological breakthough for M will be the KERS system. Looks like that's going to be on the M5 (F10). Just as the BMW F1 team are dropping it.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

We had a whole different story up here. Sales were a bit slow. Not that slow, all but a very few was sold directly to customers and those few that remained at the dealers did so for variuos reasons.

Also, here the cars were not allways fully loaded. Many had neither full clima nor sound system. Many were driven hard and long. It is not at all uncommon to see examples with an exess of 60,000 kms on the clock. About 10,000 kms a year.

Resale value for the CSL, at least here in Sweden, and in many respects also in Germany, are quite good. In general, a car sold in Sweden has lost less than 30% of its value in 5-6 years.

Sounds exactly as it happened in the UK.