M3/M4 CAR Magazine: BMW CANCELING E92 M3 CSL

[EnI]

^and i guess you know it all

Definitely more you can imagine.

All you seem to know is how to defend BMW no matter what they do
Thats about where your knowledge ends..

I never denied me being BMW biased.
With every new decision BMW make, I also get some new info on that decision ... and adding some expertise of mine ... and trying to explain.

I would rather to do the same for MB, Porsche & Audi if had their internal info. But I don't. And in MB, Porsche & Audi case I can only speculate ... or basing my argument on (fishy) industry rumors.




But internet (eg. forums) are very plural media ... perhaps even a bit too much. It's hard to pick good & correct info from bad & false ones. asically it's a free choice of a particular reader what he / she want's to believe it's true / false.

The ultimative manipulative medium ... the internet.

Figure it out ...

 

[chonkoa]

As said: apart from legendary M1 & E46 M3 CSL there were no significant other super-duper sporty production model from BMW.

And BMW brand retained all the sporty image all time long ... despite not having a super-sportler in portfolio. How come? As explained: BMW sportiness is spread across the whole model line, not concentrated in a single model!

Eni,
That is the point. The sporty image comes from a few cars defining what a street legal sports car should be.
I think that is what most people here are saying. Cancellation of the CSL project fails to make sense to me, and I am sure it is becoming difficult for most people to comprehend.

You can't say something is in your DNA when you can't show it.People (customers) need to be constantly reminded by evidence or else the perception is lost.

Like I said, I will not be a buyer of the CSL but believe me when I say it does have a bearing on why I am a BMW customer(for now).

 

[Deleted member 182]

I don't believe a new CSL would raise the sporty image a one single bit. The average 525d buyer has never even heard of the CSL. The car is too rare and raw. Besides a car in that price group without a AC is pretty amusing in my opinion.

 

[SKY]

It´s not about dreaming EnI, it´s all about brand image. When i was a child, i remeber E34 and E36 being so far in sportyness to C-Class, much more modern, much sportier, more powerfull, it was all about it.

Remeber my father wanting a E36 320i with the M pack as our neighbour one, and he just couln´t afford it, and had to go for a Peugeot 405, or remeber he looking for the E34, comparing it to the E-Class of that time, and it was far more agressive, and the way it was driven was very different to the way E-Class was driven. And of course as Amaury has said, Audi were just boxy and squareish cars with nothing to do with any BMW.

But, times are changing, Mercedes now own the AMG division, wich makes cars very similar to M ones, Audi is a premium manufacter in the same level than Mercedes and BMW, and today you see a 320i and then you see an AA4 1.8 T and you may doubt about wich car you are about to choose. You look at a Citroen C5 and with the correct package it could look better than a pre-FL E90, and if we say this 10 years ago, everybody would be laughing.


Actually you see a 5er E60, and it is sportier than A6 and E-Class, but it´s not far more agressive and far sportier as it used to be. And that is what we bimmer fans are criticising. You can make SUBs if you want, but a sporty manufacter has to have carsd wich are more spoty than the competence, and that is what BMW has misunderstand.

We will see what happens with the new F10, but if doubt that there will be the same difference between it and W212 than the one between E34 and that time E-Class.

Regards.

 

[Zafiro]

- Mercedes relese several Black Series.
- Audi is updating their R8 with a stronger engine.
- Possible Audi S5 EVO coming
- Porsche building a stronger GT2 (S).
- Nissan just relesed their GTR and later on the upcoming GTR V-spec.
- Lexus have their IS-F and the upcoming LF-A.
- Honda NSX is coming back to life.
- Ford recently showed us a 300hp Ford Focus.

Markeeting this and that. BMW's markeeting strategy wont fail just becuase they build a M3 CSL. Hire more people to M-division if you lack employees. Build a sportcar and show the competition that you still know how to.
Build a car for the entusiasts and not only for the masses.

 

[chonkoa]

Because you guys are completely irrational ...

How can a limited-production M3 CSL (eg. 1500 units produced) make an impact on performance of eg. 328i ?

Do you think 328i will now perform worse because CSL version won't be there?

If a core product is good, you don't need a tacky image maker - like a super-sportler.

R8 doesn't make A4 3.0TDI any better. You can like R8, and how it drives ... but when test-driving an A4 and not liking it ... would you still buyy it? Just because it waers the same four-rings badge as R8?

I don't think so.


You guys HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT MARKETING. Just as 99% of "forum-smarty-pants" don't. Don't discuss something you have no knowledge & insight about.

But ... if you think you can run BMW AG better then the current team, write to the Quandts & other investros - and peraps they will sit you as new BMW CEO.

And then you'll be able to kill all the X-projects, produce a super-car, CSL version of every M car, etc. I'm sure you'll be named "Best CEO ever" by Forbes, Time, People, Financial Times, WSJ, etc.

******

Guys, stop dreaming!

The fact of the matter is most people that buy cars are not as rational and intellectually engaged as you would want them to be.
More than 99% of the consumers don't make decisions based on objective facts.
I used to get upset with very silly stupid ads until I understood the rational behind the ads. Most consumers are not interested in the details, just dumb-down the story and bingo!

 

[Mr Robert]

I would put the 3,0 CSL, the 2002 Turbo, the E30 M3, The Sport Evolution, the E36 M3 GT, the E36 CSL up there with the M1 and the E46 CSL when talking about cars that BMW made in the past and have had great impact on the current image.

What is being offered in this category?

 

[coolraoul]

Dr. Dunkel made an interesting point: we don't love BMW AG, but the BMW products.

I'm sorry. BMW's image has been watered down, it's now a lot more luxurious than before, and a lot less sporty. An e30 or e36 M3 had no competition at all, and was even threatening Porsche. Now the situation is different, even Lexus can threaten the M3...

By listening to people with no idea about cars, it appears that Audi is becoming the sporty and young of the Three, while BMW is only a sportier kind of Mercedes...at least in terms of mass perception, who makes the image of a brand.

IMO to retain a sporty image you need sporty products. If the competition has sporty products, then you need sportier products. When you read that a C63 feels sportier than an M3 (even if it is not), that an A4 has better steering feel than a 3er, you can start to worry. And if these two have splendid cars and you have nothing, then yo_u have a problem.

You know, when Average Joe testdrives a car, he doesn't say "mmmhh, this one has a better steering feel, bit is less balanced. Surely because of the front suspensions a tad too soft, and the steering slightly too indirect. Also it has a too low pressure on the rear-left tyres. The response of the motor is good, but it lacks high-rev power".

No, no, they try some cars, see the one who looks better, who has a good price, who has more space, and go for it. Do you think every single buyer of a Beemer bought it because of its slightly sportier drivetrain, is a car-expert? For these cars you need something they dream of. A lot of BMW fans are fans because they had a picture of an E30 in their children room...

If you are 12 years old, will you have a picture of an X6? Or an R8, an SLR, a SL BS?

 

[EnI]

Guys ...

BMW sells 1.3 million BMW branded cars per year.

How many BMW buyers are racing enthusiasts?

How many of you "The dreamers" have bought new BMW vehicle?

Racing enthusiasts are an extincting species ... Most of BMW buyers are very satisfied with M cars.

Image car .. .yes, it's important WHEN YOU NEED IT. Right now it's not a right time for such a super-sports car.
CS 4dr GT - a new BMW flagship - enhancing sporty-luxury image. Luxury - that's now more important from BMW - since sporty image strong as a rock.

Nobody reacted on my comment on street-legal M3 GTR. Will this count for you?


*******

Any way ... Let's say ... to end this endless debate: BMW have no money for CSL. They are in deep sh.t, and need money - so they need cars that bring money to house. No money = bad image. No M1 or CSL or GTR can save your image if you go into bankrupt.

 

[Centurion]

It's sad that in the coming 3-5 years BMW will be defined by trucks and crossover MPVs rather than performance cars. You hardcore fans of BMW products are welcome to join me at Porsche, the righteous path in life.

 

[klier]

http://toughsledding.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/crybaby.gif

 

[Deleted member 25]

 

[Mr Robert]

Nobody reacted on my comment on street-legal M3 GTR. Will this count for you?

I think that would have been a great car if it was produced in enough numbers for it to hit the streets.

Nobody reacted to my comment on BMW:s engagement in the F1 circus. Is that comming to an end?

 

[Sunny]

It's sad that in the coming 3-5 years BMW will be defined by trucks and crossover MPVs rather than performance cars. You hardcore fans of BMW products are welcome to join me at Porsche, the righteous path in life.

Oh, I have always been there in my heart, it is just my wallet than can't stay.

 

[klier]

Nobody reacted to my comment on BMW:s engagement in the F1 circus. Is that comming to an end?

What do you think?????
They just bought a team. They are not going anywhere.
BMW being in F1 is also good for the 325i and 530d, you know....

 

[Mr Robert]

What do you think?????
They just bought a team. They are not going anywhere.
BMW being in F1 is also good for the 325i and 530d, you know....

Well, I don't know. Maybe it is good for the 325i, maybe it makes it sportier...

 

[Zafiro]

Guys, here is your chance to make your voice heard. Show your disappointment and let them know you want a M3 CSL

Sign your name people:

We want a BMW M3 V8 CSL Petition

 

[martinbo]

Hmmm, hugely contentious thread this.

Eni, even if I know zilch about marketing (actually I know a fair bit consider that I run and market an SAP Partnership) and even if a halo model like an M3 CSL does precious little to enhance the sporty image of BMW at a global scale it still does have a necessary place in the line up from a prestige point of view. Automotive afficionados love to appreciate a pinnacle model - a car placed on a pedestal showcasing the very best of what the brand has to offer from an ingenuity perspective.

For me, the E46 M3 CSL was such a car, as is the (for argument's sake) Audi R8. These are great cars that lend huge credibility to a brand, particularly from the enthusiasts' point of view. I will not dispute that BMW ED cars are more relevant and ultimately important on a global scale. I also appreciate that such an ED strategy coupled with class-leading performance for such "green" cars is the highest priority for automotive sustainability. All of this is paramount.

I'll be the first to say that, whilst I consider the CSL one of the greatest drives I've ever had, it was a failure as a commercial product. Outside of Europe the car was snapped up by wealthy individuals who had no other motivation to own the car beyond having the bragging rights to owning a "latest and greatest". Most of the CSL owners in SA traded in their cars and residuals fell through the floor in the first year-and-a-half. So much for a collector's item. From a commercial perspective, BMW does not need another CSL flop.

And yet, it's the CSL that gets us enthusiasts all misty-eyed. Enthusiasts like Andreas who own BMWs because of the admiration and pride of being associated with this supremely dynamic brand. A fine attribute of BMW is that it doesn't require one to be a stinking millionaire to partake in the driver's pleasure - sure, you can admire a CSL but that doesn't preclude you from enjoying the best driver's cars at the price.

My line to BMW is this: don't ignore the value of the enthusiast and the power of inspiration. Many many people that buy BMWs do so because they're car fans and recognise value and differentiation in the BMW product. And whilst BMW continues to tout its slogan as the ultimate driving machine, I darn well hope that I'll see models that will continue to inspire the enthusiast in me. Hopefully, one day I'll have the wherewithal to own a BMW - something that satisfies my performance, practicality and financial requirements. Right now that E92 M3 is a smidge out of reach!

But don't judge me just because I don't own a BMW. Yet.

 

[EnI]

Nobody reacted to my comment on BMW:s engagement in the F1 circus. Is that comming to an end?

No. Engagement in F1 is a long-term strategic decision.

F1 is a great lab for BMW to get the extensive know-how on:
- aerodynamics,
- lightweight tech,
- active chassis systems,
- engine management systems,
- engine tech,
- etc.

Of course the Zombi duo (Mosley & Ecclestone) are lately putting some bad spells on the technological progress. Yet some solutions have been given a green light: eg. KERS hybrid, turbo engines, etc.

And many F1 solutions is implemented in production vehicles. Frorm where do you thing some cooll active suspension, telematics, turbo-tech etc. know-how has come? From F1 R&D.

So ... in the end even 325i gets some know-how from F1 engagement.

Also no need to mention F1 engagement is still a very ggod prromotion for the brand.


*****

Nobody said CSL & supercar etc projects are dead. They are just put on ice ... until the right green tech is available to make a proper green & efficient sports car. And the engagement in F1 will definitely help to deliver such solutions sooner than in the case without F1 help.


*****

We all know why people buy BMW cars: because they drive exceptionally well, and brings joy to the driver. Even the 120i. And driving capability has nothing to do with M3 CSL.

Does Nissan Micra drives better & has better image due GTR? Not at all.

BMW sporty image has nothing to do with CSL. Or supercar.
Sporty core models (incl. trucks!), enhanced with M spin-offs are sufficient right now. And the engagement in Motorsport.

*****

BMW sporty image really does not depend on a single model. Definitely not.
And due eg. M3 CSL absence, supercar absence, Z4 M absence etc. the image won't be hurt at all. A crappy driving regular 3er or 5er: that would significantly hurt BMW sporty image! Since 3er & 5er represent 1/2 of all BMW sales.

Sporty & competent core models are much more important than the special sporty versions. Of course super-duper spin-offs can add some intangible value, but it's not a neccessity.

Also: the buyers who buy new 320i (or any other BMW) due M3 CSL are rare. Not many aficionados left.
And many buy BMW due BMW heritage & competence - which mirrors in core models. M1 is legendary. 30 years old, and still has an impact. Even M3 CSL is a 5 year old model. So, no harm done if there's no worthy successor for another 5 years. In the mean time Ms & tiis will do the job.

Be sure BMW brand won't turn into Prius.
But they're just adopting to the present & future situation.
And when the adaptation is fully executed BMW will still back to its roots: with new generation sporty cars.

*****

Right now they calculated CSL is not financially & marketing-wise project. So they put in on ice. Simple as that.

They need money for other - more profitable - projects.

Mind: no money, no good image.

Think of British brands before being acquired by foreign car makers ...

 

[Mr Robert]

Nobody said CSL & supercar etc projects are dead. They are just put on ice ... until the right green tech is available to make a proper green & efficient sports car. And the engagement in F1 will definitely help to deliver such solutions sooner than in the case without F1 help.
...

This is of course music to my ears. I think KERS will be the key in the next generation M-models.

To bad they had to announce the halt of all the good stuff at the same time (CSL, Z8, Z4M), that made the whole thing seem a bit rushed/desperate.