Hot! BREAKING NEWS: BMW Officially Buys ALPINA

[Matski]

It will be shame if Alpina is just rendered a trim level.

 

[dalab]

It will be shame if Alpina is just rendered a trim level.

All the "bad tongues" are tuned in on that, all the official sources, but strategically they have been lied to many other times to confuse the competition, which is natural, although everything points to that, I have the same hope as you, at least with one car to start.

Happens that at the moment they handed the bespoke torch to "M" and Rolls Royce, making some of the best cars in the world today, we should settle with the "Spectre" lol, but I would love to see a unique ALPINA in Bentley territory or something even better.. ..?
Sorry for the length of the post but this is an exciting topic for me.

 

[Matski]

All the "bad tongues" are tuned in on that, all the official sources, but strategically they have been lied to many other times to confuse the competition, which is natural, although everything points to that, I have the same hope as you, at least with one car to start.

A dedicated car that's basically a reeeeally expensive BMW based on a cheaper BMW isn't going to cut it. It will be Maybach V1.0 all over again.

Let's say instead they based a standalone Alpina on Rolls-Royce architecture... and where Rolls-Royce's art deco style doesn't appeal to everyone, substitute in more 'Bentley-esque' elements, I think that would be an excellent product - but it wouldn't be a Bentley, and people spending Bentley money probably want that badge more than they want an Alpina badge - so perhaps that wouldn't be a success.

Turning Maybach V2.0 into a trim level worked brilliantly for Mercedes - low effort, simple, profitable. Trying to convince people a new luxury brand was worth buying into, even with great products (apparently), didn't work... there's absolutely no reason to believe BMW wouldn't face exactly the same issues and get exactly the same outcomes...

... I don't want Alpina to become a trim level, but looking at it with a corporate head on, it's the best way to make money, Mercedes proved that.

Don't get me wrong, there's other more exciting things I'd LIKE them to do with Alpina, but we need to be real about it. A relatively straight forward, but somewhat seismic option, would be to abandon all M products not related to motorsport, and replace them with Alpina models. Strip the luxury out of the M products and make them far more focused as hardcore performance cars, and give the people the performance and comfort of an Alpina instead. An XB7 intuitively makes far more sense than an X7 M60i for example - I mean, a motorsport 7 seat SUV? Even the much requested M5 Tourer makes little-to-no sense in the context of ///Motorsport, just make it a B5 instead... BMW Alpina X5 instead of X5M etc. etc.

Alpina used to make the BMW's that BMW wouldn't. An I6 M3 before the M3 got an I6, a V8 in a 3 series before the 3 series got a V8, a Twin Turbo high performance 5 series saloon whilst the M5 was still NA, the B12's that were M7's and M8's before BMW made them themselves, high performance wagons, high performance diesels... these were the things that made Alpina great - taking a BMW and making it genuinely just better, rather than engineering the portfolio to just slot in another model... If the Alpina of today was the Alpina of yesteryear, that quad motor i4 would be the kind of thing that rolled out of Buchloe, and that, more than all the stuff above is what I'd like to see in the future for Alpina - the BMW's that BMW won't make.

 

[Centurion]

... I don't want Alpina to become a trim level, but looking at it with a corporate head on, it's the best way to make money, Mercedes proved that

IMO, there is room in the BMW portfolio for Alpina cars. M cars are brilliant but can be too hard edge. M-lites are sweet spots but steering tends to be too vague or lifeless to truly keep you happy for the long term.

 

[dalab]

A dedicated car that's basically a reeeeally expensive BMW based on a cheaper BMW isn't going to cut it. It will be Maybach V1.0 all over again.

Let's say instead they based a standalone Alpina on Rolls-Royce architecture... and where Rolls-Royce's art deco style doesn't appeal to everyone, substitute in more 'Bentley-esque' elements, I think that would be an excellent product - but it wouldn't be a Bentley, and people spending Bentley money probably want that badge more than they want an Alpina badge - so perhaps that wouldn't be a success.

Turning Maybach V2.0 into a trim level worked brilliantly for Mercedes - low effort, simple, profitable. Trying to convince people a new luxury brand was worth buying into, even with great products (apparently), didn't work... there's absolutely no reason to believe BMW wouldn't face exactly the same issues and get exactly the same outcomes...

... I don't want Alpina to become a trim level, but looking at it with a corporate head on, it's the best way to make money, Mercedes proved that.

Don't get me wrong, there's other more exciting things I'd LIKE them to do with Alpina, but we need to be real about it. A relatively straight forward, but somewhat seismic option, would be to abandon all M products not related to motorsport, and replace them with Alpina models. Strip the luxury out of the M products and make them far more focused as hardcore performance cars, and give the people the performance and comfort of an Alpina instead. An XB7 intuitively makes far more sense than an X7 M60i for example - I mean, a motorsport 7 seat SUV? Even the much requested M5 Tourer makes little-to-no sense in the context of ///Motorsport, just make it a B5 instead... BMW Alpina X5 instead of X5M etc. etc.

Alpina used to make the BMW's that BMW wouldn't. An I6 M3 before the M3 got an I6, a V8 in a 3 series before the 3 series got a V8, a Twin Turbo high performance 5 series saloon whilst the M5 was still NA, the B12's that were M7's and M8's before BMW made them themselves, high performance wagons, high performance diesels... these were the things that made Alpina great - taking a BMW and making it genuinely just better, rather than engineering the portfolio to just slot in another model... If the Alpina of today was the Alpina of yesteryear, that quad motor i4 would be the kind of thing that rolled out of Buchloe, and that, more than all the stuff above is what I'd like to see in the future for Alpina - the BMW's that BMW won't make.

The difference with Maybach V1.0 is that the BMW would not be made to compete with RR for $400,000 (as was the case with Maybach), otherwise it would be halfway and bespoke, - I like that one. -

Trim level: it would be and it is the most feasible for all the benefits that you wield (I would like it but not that much, depending on the degree of intervention that they do to each model (something more than changing the grill)

I don't see it as feasible to change certain M models like the X7M, today they handle it under both trims and it turns out very well

The last one is interesting to keep the format of today and expand it, make the BMWs that BMW does not make, and add some rather crazy combinations

The ideal for me is a whole, one super bespoke per year (Bentley level, Lagonda type or something new), trim level to a higher level of dedication and more details and changes than what Maybach does today, and make special models like the Z4 touring under Alpina but more often and more models

 

[EnI]

There are already M and i. And there will be ALPINA.

Think of it as of an upgrade to the top motorized Individual models of top end BMW Series. Even more premium & upscale materials, even more comfort (chassis & drivetrain tuning, better suspension, better noise insulation), even more premium & special interior and exterior trim styling, even more standard convenience features.

ALPINA is planned to rival Maybach directly, and even Bentley to some extent. They are not going to push into Rolls-Royce territory with ALPINA. It will be some sort of bridge between BMW and RR. Something BMW Group had planed & aspired to do for decades now with different approaches, and still they haven't done it properly. ALPINA is yet another attempt. This time it may even work. Due to recognisable brand name with proper legacy & cachet. A brand name historically associated with BMW. Fingers crossed.

 

[dalab]

There are already M and i. And there will be ALPINA.

Think of it as of an upgrade to the top motorized Individual models of top end BMW Series. Even more premium & upscale materials, even more comfort (chassis & drivetrain tuning, better suspension, better noise insulation), even more premium & special interior and exterior trim styling, even more standard convenience features.

ALPINA is planned to rival Maybach directly, and even Bentley to some extent. They are not going to push into Rolls-Royce territory with ALPINA. It will be some sort of bridge between BMW and RR. Something BMW Group had planed & aspired to do for decades now with different approaches, and still they haven't done it properly. ALPINA is yet another attempt. This time it may even work. Due to recognisable brand name with proper legacy & cachet. A brand name historically associated with BMW. Fingers crossed.

A kind of "9 series" but through all the lines, it is true it is a plan from decades ago, some intrigues persist, but the biggest one... I would love to see how it is also applied to the midlines 3/4 /5 series like today Alpina does today. No one else does that part today

 

[SKY]

Not sure how trying to move BMW upmarket this way can work sales wise. I guess it will all depend on the price asked for these new Alpinas. As I said before, BMW lack's the brand imagine to charge a price beyond a certain point. We have seen MB's poor attempts with Maybach, trying to add more leather a weird color combinations to your portfolio, does not make rich people for them instead of a Bentley or a RR.

Time will tell.

 

[dalab]

Not sure how trying to move BMW upmarket this way can work sales wise. I guess it will all depend on the price asked for these new Alpinas. As I said before, BMW lack's the brand imagine to charge a price beyond a certain point. We have seen MB's poor attempts with Maybach, trying to add more leather a weird color combinations to your portfolio, does not make rich people for them instead of a Bentley or a RR.

Time will tell.

I think they have the image to do what they want, today they are close to $200,000 for the G70 in some versions.
I agree that the slightest misinterpretation and it can fail, is not easy.

But Mercedes with this Mybach 2.0 does better than fine without much effort, zero R&D, same cars rebadge in trim and go, that business model implies very little risk of failure to not try it for BMW with Alpina that turned out to be the "name ", here we talk about "Bavaria" once, it seems to me that in this case Mercedes opened an interesting path and sells 17,000/20,000 pure units per year, (that is a little more than Bentley per year developing models (although with VW R&D is "almost zero").
It is valid IMO

 

[SKY]

I think they have the image to do what they want, today they are close to $200,000 for the G70 in some versions.

That's because you clearly idolize the brand. But BMW clearly has nor the image nor the pedigree to launch certain cars, like a hypercar or a supercar. And certainly not going beyond a certain price tag for saloons.

 

[Centurion]

Not sure how trying to move BMW upmarket this way can work sales wise. I guess it will all depend on the price asked for these new Alpinas. As I said before, BMW lack's the brand imagine to charge a price beyond a certain point. We have seen MB's poor attempts with Maybach, trying to add more leather a weird color combinations to your portfolio, does not make rich people for them instead of a Bentley or a RR.

Time will tell.

There's room to move upmarket. Even economy brands are. Today you can buy a Volvo or Kia for money that was unimaginable 5-10 years ago.

An M3 Touring is more expensive than a Macau GTS or Cayenne Coupe S

 

[dalab]

That's because you clearly idolize the brand. But BMW clearly has nor the image nor the pedigree to launch certain cars, like a hypercar or a supercar. And certainly not going beyond a certain price tag for saloons.

I respect your opinion and your perception of the brand, but I do not share it.
As I said before, the success they have always had in the higher segments and the actual perception, quality, and focus of the rest of the lines, in my opinion, point to what is the correct timing for them to do almost anything, being consistent they have RR at the top and drive MINI the "entry" premiums, in that figure they use "M" for that "something else" and they will use Alpina to scale the current even beyond the $200,000, in a few words, they are already doing it.

 

[Matski]

Alpina's been capped at something like 2-3000 units per model across the entire life cycle of a model, and (admittedly based on anecdotal observations), the upper models such as the B7 are the domain of the US and the middle east, and Europe the place where B5 and lower models proliferated. You can count the B7's in the UK on the fingers of one hand, or something of that magnitude --- they simply cannot leverage the brand alone, a 7-series based 9-series will not cut it, I'm confident of that (I mean, it's likely to be an excellent product but you're playing in the domain of absolute badge-whores who can afford the badge, but not the proper versions of it.. a.k.a Bentley Buyers).

I don't subscribe to the notion that BMW cannot go above a certain threshold, the fact is they never properly attempt to for more than one model cycle, there's no consistent presence in the upper echelons so with every '8' level car they're starting from scratch, the dealers shit their pants and the people that need a Lamborghini badge to be their best self go and buy an Anus Urus instead of an XM. If the XM and 8 series don't get proper successors it will just be the same as the E31, the Z8, the i8 etc. etc...

An Alpina badge will not change that.

Autocar said this, in their current review of the B5 GT...

"There’s a fair chance that Munich will leverage Buchloe’s reputation for lavish interiors and general bespokery to create a neat stepping stone between M and Rolls-Royce, but whether the cars will continue to be so assiduously honed in mechanical terms is less certain. I wouldn’t bet on it, because with the Bovensiepen family out of the picture, profit will probably take precedence. "

I love BMW, I love Alpina, but I cannot help agreeing with the sentiment of this statement. Maybach as a name meant f*** all to most people, so selling the 57 and 62 down the river in favour of rebadged Brabuses and Magna parts bin G's didn't really offend anyone... Milk the name... it worked.

... and that's a best case commercial scenario for BMW, the more likely reality is Alpina becomes a page of options in the back of the brochure, little more than BMW Individual.

 

[dalab]

Alpina's been capped at something like 2-3000 units per model across the entire life cycle of a model, and (admittedly based on anecdotal observations), the upper models such as the B7 are the domain of the US and the middle east, and Europe the place where B5 and lower models proliferated. You can count the B7's in the UK on the fingers of one hand, or something of that magnitude --- they simply cannot leverage the brand alone, a 7-series based 9-series will not cut it, I'm confident of that (I mean, it's likely to be an excellent product but you're playing in the domain of absolute badge-whores who can afford the badge, but not the proper versions of it.. a.k.a Bentley Buyers).

I don't subscribe to the notion that BMW cannot go above a certain threshold, the fact is they never properly attempt to for more than one model cycle, there's no consistent presence in the upper echelons so with every '8' level car they're starting from scratch, the dealers shit their pants and the people that need a Lamborghini badge to be their best self go and buy an Anus Urus instead of an XM. If the XM and 8 series don't get proper successors it will just be the same as the E31, the Z8, the i8 etc. etc...

An Alpina badge will not change that.

Autocar said this, in their current review of the B5 GT...

"There’s a fair chance that Munich will leverage Buchloe’s reputation for lavish interiors and general bespokery to create a neat stepping stone between M and Rolls-Royce, but whether the cars will continue to be so assiduously honed in mechanical terms is less certain. I wouldn’t bet on it, because with the Bovensiepen family out of the picture, profit will probably take precedence. "

I love BMW, I love Alpina, but I cannot help agreeing with the sentiment of this statement. Maybach as a name meant f*** all to most people, so selling the 57 and 62 down the river in favour of rebadged Brabuses and Magna parts bin G's didn't really offend anyone... Milk the name... it worked.

... and that's a best case commercial scenario for BMW, the more likely reality is Alpina becomes a page of options in the back of the brochure, little more than BMW Individual.

I think that unlike the failures of Mercedes with Maybach 1 and with Smart 1, BMW showed that it does things much better with its RR and Mini "entrepreneurships", it also taught Mercedes through "M" how to deal with AMG, for which I have higher expectations of what they will do with ALPINA, I think they earned that right and I am dying to see the result either as a trim or as an additional brand.

I agree that consistency in maintaining the models cycle after cycle is very important

 

[Matski]

I think that unlike the failures of Mercedes with Maybach 1 and with Smart 1, BMW showed that it does things much better with its RR and Mini "entrepreneurships

Rolls-Royce and Mini were very established and already loved brands. Yes, I think they've done very well with them, and they pretty much had to start from scratch with the product, but they never had to convince anyone of the brand. Mercedes didn't have that for Maybach or their involvement with Smart. Alpina does not have as broad an affection as Mini or Rolls-Royce - outside of car enthusiasts most people haven't even heard of them. Success with Alpina can't be assumed because of success with Mini or Rolls-Royce.

it also taught Mercedes through "M" how to deal with AMG, for which I have higher expectations of what they will do with ALPINA

If anything the handling of Alpina is more like that of AMG by Mercedes, rather than Maybach. BMW M put structure around the company's motorsport efforts, AMG was an independent tuner with an agreement with the larger manufacturer, and eventually was bought out by them... in that respect Alpina's situation now is much closer to that.

 

[dalab]

The man for whom ALPINA was nothing more and nothing less than his life's work has passed away.

BMW & Alpina in Trauer vereint: Burkard Bovensiepen ist tot

Der Mann, für den ALPINA nicht mehr und nicht weniger als sein Lebenswerk war, ist von uns gegangen. Burkard Bovensiepen zählt zu den bekanntesten und

www.bimmertoday.de

 

[Matski]

Sad news.

 

[dalab]

Rolls-Royce and Mini were very established and already loved brands. Yes, I think they've done very well with them, and they pretty much had to start from scratch with the product, but they never had to convince anyone of the brand. Mercedes didn't have that for Maybach or their involvement with Smart. Alpina does not have as broad an affection as Mini or Rolls-Royce - outside of car enthusiasts most people haven't even heard of them. Success with Alpina can't be assumed because of success with Mini or Rolls-Royce.

Mmm, more or less, they started from scratch, with two completely dead brands, and the fact that they were iconic and loved only speaks of BMW's best execution by having fought for them and achieved them in two efforts not exempt from cunning (RR) and suffering (MINI). , which the giant Mercedes that falls asleep very often had no choice but to manipulate Maybach and create Smart, wrong and wrong, everything starts somewhere

If anything the handling of Alpina is more like that of AMG by Mercedes, rather than Maybach. BMW M put structure around the company's motorsport efforts, AMG was an independent tuner with an agreement with the larger manufacturer, and eventually was bought out by them... in that respect Alpina's situation now is much closer to that.

That is correct, except that BMW already has its M sport version so it is time to think beyond the obvious.

Alpina in 2022 sold a record of 2,000 cars (including the B3 etc.), - it may be due to lack of production capacity - I don't know -, so I don't think BMW will go for more of the same but for the 17/20,000 Annual Maybachs/Bentleys, so after seeing what they did with the M, RR and Mini, I'm almost certain they will surprise us

 

[Matski]

Mmm, more or less, they started from scratch, with two completely dead brands

They weren't completely dead, Mini's were still being produced under BMW ownership of Rover up until 2000, and the MINI took over in 2001. The 2003 Phantom VII under BMW took over from the Silver Seraph being produced by VW in 2002. As I said, they may have had to start from scratch with the engineering, and in Rolls-Royce's case, production facilities, but they had no brand building or awareness to do at all. Both brands were already loved, compared to say, Rover, which were a bit of a national joke, and unsurprisingly without the affection that Mini and Rolls-Royce had, Rover ultimately failed. The same thing happened with Land Rover, as a beloved brand, it was able to succeed under Ford and Tata because nobody had to be sold on the idea of Range Rover/Land Rover.

Maybach by comparison was dormant for 50 years, most people hadn't heard of them and for some that had it was for making Nazi tank engines... and Smart basically didn't exist at all. Nobody gives a **** about Zinoro, and if BMW brought back GLAS most people wouldn't care. Those things are more analogous to what Daimler/Mercedes have tried to do with Smart and Maybach.

I really want Alpina be to be special, moreso than I want it to be successful.

 

[dalab]

They weren't completely dead, Mini's were still being produced under BMW ownership of Rover up until 2000, and the MINI took over in 2001. The 2003 Phantom VII under BMW took over from the Silver Seraph being produced by VW in 2002. As I said, they may have had to start from scratch with the engineering, and in Rolls-Royce's case, production facilities, but they had no brand building or awareness to do at all. Both brands were already loved, compared to say, Rover, which were a bit of a national joke, and unsurprisingly without the affection that Mini and Rolls-Royce had, Rover ultimately failed. The same thing happened with Land Rover, as a beloved brand, it was able to succeed under Ford and Tata because nobody had to be sold on the idea of Range Rover/Land Rover.

Maybach by comparison was dormant for 50 years, most people hadn't heard of them and for some that had it was for making Nazi tank engines... and Smart basically didn't exist at all. Nobody gives a **** about Zinoro, and if BMW brought back GLAS most people wouldn't care. Those things are more analogous to what Daimler/Mercedes have tried to do with Smart and Maybach.

I really want Alpina be to be special, moreso than I want it to be successful.

I think that the RR and Mini thing could have gone as bad as it went well, the difference is in what was done and how it was done, there are a million beloved brands that were absorbed because customers no longer wanted to buy them.

I really want Alpina be to be special, moreso than I want it to be successful.

Likewise, but nowadays those things go quite hand in hand, if we put nice wheels and paint them "Alpina" green we are not doing anything new, I am intrigued