M5 BMW M5 F10 (spy pics & info)

[Merc1]

A twin-turbo V10....yikes! Speculation is too rampant now IMO.

M

 

[Beemer B773ER]

A twin-turbo V10....yikes! Speculation is too rampant now IMO.

M

Well it's not actually speculation. SCOTT has stated that BMW/M-Division is currently studying 2 engines (V8 TT and V10TT) to see which would better match-up with the F10 M5. So the idea of a V10 TT wasn't part of a fanboy's wet dreams.... just it hasn't been confirmed (or denied) yet as the engine of choice for the next M5.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Twin Scroll Twin Turbo V10 sounds good

Oh yeah!! I can just see badging on the side of the M5 stating 'Twin Scroll Twin Turbo V10'.

Certainly a mouthful, but that won't be a problem since everyone will be drooling if this engine does end up being the heart of the next M5.

 

[Merc1]

Well it's not actually speculation. SCOTT has stated that BMW/M-Division is currently studying 2 engines (V8 TT and V10TT) to see which would better match-up with the F10 M5. So the idea of a V10 TT wasn't part of a fanboy's wet dreams.... just it hasn't been confirmed (or denied) yet as the engine of choice for the next M5.

Gee thanks.

M

 

[Sunny]

They might be testing a TTV10, but I too doubt if it will actually make it to production. The V8TT already packs a good punch and probably has a lot more in reserve - probably easily another 50HP. The bigger challenge might be coming up with a proper transmission for the car. But then again a M5 always came with a new engine that pushed the boundaries of what is de rigueur in a sedan...

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Gee thanks.

M

Any reason for the sarcasm Merc1 ?

 

[Beemer B773ER]

They might be testing a TTV10, but I too doubt if it will actually make it to production. The V8TT already packs a good punch and probably has a lot more in reserve - probably easily another 50HP. The bigger challenge might be coming up with a proper transmission for the car. But then again a M5 always came with a new engine that pushed the boundaries of what is de rigueur in a sedan...

It's a very interesting dilemma they're faced with.
On one hand, it sounds like an all-out V10 TT would be a tad excessive even for BMW and M-Division, and it may actually be too much power for the car to still be able to accelerate and handle so nimbly (especially if BMW put added focus on keeping the new M5's weight in-check). Also, the marketing advantage associated with a V10 is not that strong anymore since Formula 1 no longer has V10's...also, a V10 flies in the face of BMW's Efficient Dynamics initiative, and SCOTT and Eni have stated the new M5 will showcase some of eD's technological applications.

On the other hand however, Sunny's right in saying that the M5's engine has always pushed the boundaries not only for BMWs, but also for performance sedans in generals. Resorting back to a V8 engine after having a barnstorming V10 may been seen as going a bit soft. Also, eventhough a V8 TT might be good when the car is launched, the new M5's engine has to remain competitive for the life of the model, which the V8 TT may not be able to do if other manufacturers take a more aggressive approach to their future performance sedans. Furthermore, the E63, RS6 and even Cadillac's offering all already outpower the M5, so going for a V8 TT just might not be enough to keep the M5's reputation of continually redefining the performance sedan. Another thing, the F10 550i is set to get a V8 TT, so having the M5 have a V8 TT (even if they are two completely different engines) might not be a good idea in marketing terms since many may perceive there isn't a justifiable reason to buy the M5 over the 550i.

I imagine the V10 TT would have noticeably higher development costs over the already in-production V8 TT, so I'm sure BMW are spending a lot of time evaluating the cost-vs-benefit of the V10 TT, especially if their sales forecasts suggest that cars such as the M5 won't sell like hotcakes due to state of the global economy. Also, the development of current M5's V10 was somewhat shared with the M3's V8 since a good deal was transfered down to the smaller sibling.... but what amount of the new V10 TT engine's development cost could be shared with other models...especially considering BMW has shelved more premium models such as the CS Concept and new Z8-replacement..and no M7. The M5 and M6 will share the burden of trying to achieve a return on investment for this new engine.

Add to all of this that BMW and M have to consider the competition's potential offerings when it comes to the future M6, and it becomes clear that deciding which engine to go for is a tough one for BMW.

 

[Mr Robert]

Although at M division it helps if the base car is something really , really special.

That is easy to understand. The gains in fuel economy must be really spectacular, in order for its extra weight to be justified. Then it is easier to slam it onto something that have no predecessor to compare with.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Oh, they get it right alright, problem is, every car is better without it It is, so to say, contra productive from both the sporty and efficiency perspectives...

That's FIA's fault with all those restrictions on it.

 

[CarGuy]

It's a very interesting dilemma they're faced with.
On one hand, it sounds like an all-out V10 TT would be a tad excessive even for BMW and M-Division, and it may actually be too much power for the car to still be able to accelerate and handle so nimbly (especially if BMW put added focus on keeping the new M5's weight in-check). Also, the marketing advantage associated with a V10 is not that strong anymore since Formula 1 no longer has V10's...also, a V10 flies in the face of BMW's Efficient Dynamics initiative, and SCOTT and Eni have stated the new M5 will showcase some of eD's technological applications.

On the other hand however, Sunny's right in saying that the M5's engine has always pushed the boundaries not only for BMWs, but also for performance sedans in generals. Resorting back to a V8 engine after having a barnstorming V10 may been seen as going a bit soft. Also, eventhough a V8 TT might be good when the car is launched, the new M5's engine has to remain competitive for the life of the model, which the V8 TT may not be able to do if other manufacturers take a more aggressive approach to their future performance sedans. Furthermore, the E63, RS6 and even Cadillac's offering all already outpower the M5, so going for a V8 TT just might not be enough to keep the M5's reputation of continually redefining the performance sedan. Another thing, the F10 550i is set to get a V8 TT, so having the M5 have a V8 TT (even if they are two completely different engines) might not be a good idea in marketing terms since many may perceive there isn't a justifiable reason to buy the M5 over the 550i.

I imagine the V10 TT would have noticeably higher development costs over the already in-production V8 TT, so I'm sure BMW are spending a lot of time evaluating the cost-vs-benefit of the V10 TT, especially if their sales forecasts suggest that cars such as the M5 won't sell like hotcakes due to state of the global economy. Also, the development of current M5's V10 was somewhat shared with the M3's V8 since a good deal was transfered down to the smaller sibling.... but what amount of the new V10 TT engine's development cost could be shared with other models...especially considering BMW has shelved more premium models such as the CS Concept and new Z8-replacement..and no M7. The M5 and M6 will share the burden of trying to achieve a return on investment for this new engine.

Add to all of this that BMW and M have to consider the competition's potential offerings when it comes to the future M6, and it becomes clear that deciding which engine to go for is a tough one for BMW.

Good points! I think you make it pretty clear that the only real competitive and appealing choice for BMW and it's customers to follow is a V10 TT. Anything else will just be perceived as digression by fans of the automotive world.

 

[Mr Robert]

Well, to be honest, arguments like that have not had any effect on BMW lately...

 

[Babken]

Opinion

It's difficult to say yet what engine the upcoming generation of M5 will have. One thing is obvious: it will retain its crown as the GODFATHER OF SEDANS.

 

[Sunny]

Well, to be honest, arguments like that have not had any effect on BMW lately...

Lately? it never did. Fans decried when M3 went to I6 from I4. They cried when they went V8 from I6. They also cried when M5 went to V8 from I6 and also probably when it went V10 - I stoped paying attention. They will cry about anything. I hope purely performance is the criteria for the next engine. Yea a TT V10 sounds more exotic, but a V8 TT might be better for the handling cause of better weight distribution and compactness.

 

[Mr Robert]

Yea a TT V10 sounds more exotic, but a V8 TT might be better for the handling cause of better weight distribution and compactness.

Let's hope that the V8TT is better for the engine character as well as that is almost as important as the performance.

In most crying cases, the fans cried becuse they did not know what to expect and had BMW not broken all known boundaries with every change of layout, the result would have been catastrophic.

Whining did give the US market a manual M5, limited whining power, but still.

 

[Sunny]

Let's hope that the V8TT is better for the engine character as well as that is almost as important as the performance.

Well, a turbo engine is not going to have the same characteristics as a NA engine, be it a V10TT or a V8TT.

Whining did give the US market a manual M5, limited whining power, but still.

And it wasn't as spectacular. Probably a good example of why they shouldn't listen to the whining.

 

[NarutoRamen]

And it wasn't as spectacular. Probably a good example of why they shouldn't listen to the whining.

I wonder if there is a breakdown of SMGIII vs. Manual sales out there where we can take a look at what people were preferred.

 

[Mr Robert]

I wonder if there is a breakdown of SMGIII vs. Manual sales out there where we can take a look at what people were preferred.

Well, as the implementation was not that great, I think it was not what people wanted. The manual option smells afterthought. I have never read a review that has praised it. But in the end, I agree, some things are better left to engineers...

 

[Cashmere]

The other problem with the manual transmission on the E60 M5 was that it wasn't planned from the beginning hence it had a few drawbacks(e.g at first Traction control could not be switched off) hence it did got alot of negative reviews initially. Also, it was only for the NA market making a manual M5 quite rare.

On the other hand, the E90/92 M3 are selling just as well in both manual and sequential derivatives with a greater share leaning towards DCT but I havent read any negative reviews about the manual transmission either.

I also recall Scott mentioning that the new M5 will be built from the ground up to be capable of handling a proper manual transmission.

 

[NarutoRamen]

The only problem I have with the DCT, SMG, etc., is the fact that if you're out of warranty, they have to be super expensive to repair. Which begs the question: At what point is the car worthless when the transmission goes bad and the dealership wants 5K to fix? Hell just to fix a manual the dealership will charge around 2K, so how much more is this? The other part that sucks is that you would have to go to the dealership because none of the regular shops will know what to do with it.

 

[Poverty]

this is great.
Its gonna be fun watching the same bmw fans who were telling the FI'd guys that turbos are rubbish for a great driving experience how the new BMW M's are better than ever.

Long live BMW Marketing