5 Series (F10) BMW F10 5er - press drives & reviews

[EnI]

I have to disagree with that statement Martin. Simply because that is your opinion. How ever Eni, BMW has to realise that Motoring journos opinions do hold some weight (not much) in car sales.

In BMWs defence, they've done the research and come to the conclusion that their cars have to be a bit more comfortable and if the journos don't like it then screw them they build cars to make money and not to impress journos.

Exactly. The company's goal is not to impress the press, but the customers.

Sure a published article / show has an impact. But it's still an opinion of an individual - who has a chance to express his / her opinion via mass media.

All what a company can do is to do some damage control.

It would be fundamentally wrong for the companies if they started to impress certain journalists instead of thousands or even millions of customers.

Mind E60, E65, E85 etc were heavily bashed in the press - not to mention X3 E83 - but the cars were selling extremely well.

 

[EnI]

Journalists still should be entitled to their opinion and voice it, though. As far as I can tell, the new 5 is said to be one step further away from the former BMW trademarks called driving sensation and driver involvement. If this is needed to bring them more customers, so be it. This doesn't make the disappointment of some journalists any less valid, though. You know what they say, you can't have a cake and eat it too.

1. Press only had a chance to drive a fully equipped cars - packed with DDC, IAS, ARS etc

2. They were explained what was a brief by marketing dept - what car to make, what customers want.

IMO it's quite ignorant to ignore all that & say: "F... the BMW customers & their needs. This car is too pussy, and not engaging at all." Sure journalists are entitled to say that - but such opinion has no rational base at all. It's disrespectful to all the customers - the same ones who also do buy the magazine. Very hypocritical. Not to say very childish.

 

[Giannis]

Do you even know how the car is developed? Marketing plays a huge role: they provide a market researches to show what a trend is, and where are the promising niches to fill.

Regarding the existing models they collect a huge amount of feedback - and then it's decided on strategic level what car to make. And usually most needs & demands are addressed. Not individual ones, but the cumulative ones. And be sure when a company like BMW, MB or Audi come out with a car of certain characteristic it's because they have a reason in customer demands. Not because the car comes out as it does. Or because the bosses want something - except in supercars segment, where rationality is not in question at all.

Do you know what over a million buyers of E60 think about the car? What they want to be improved & bettered in the new one? What extras do they want in the new car? Etc. You don't. Nor do the car journalist. But the company - BMW in this case - does. So, when they make a car like this, they know exactly why they made it that way.

That does have a basis. I recall that a year or a year and half after the purchase of my car, I was sent a multi-page questionaire about what do or do not like about my car and what I would like to see changed. I believe I still have a photocopy of it somewhere. I'll try to find it, and maybe post the questions it had.

 

[south]

1. Press only had a chance to drive a fully equipped cars - packed with DDC, IAS, ARS etc

2. They were explained what was a brief by marketing dept - what car to make, what customers want.

IMO it's quite ignorant to ignore all that & say: "F... the BMW customers & their needs. This car is too pussy, and not engaging at all." Sure journalists are entitled to say that - but such opinion has no rational base at all. It's disrespectful to all the customers - the same ones who also do buy the magazine. Very hypocritical. Not to say very childish.

You missed my point. It's not the job of a journalist to tell if a car met the demands of the prospective buyers. It's their job to compare a car to other cars and to voice the - subjective - feel they had driving it. This helps prospective buyers way more in their decision than a 'this car will meet its owner's demands'.

Besides, the increased weight most certainly plays a big part in the changed characteristics. You don't want to tell us that BMW added weight because customers wanted them to, do you?


Best regards,
south

 

[EnI]

I'd say one would be hard pressed to find a more complete and racing experienced editorial staff.

Yes. but wasn't EVO all about sports cars? What's going on today - they are testing SUVs, executive & luxury sedans etc.

Oh, yes - to attract more readers. To broaden the customer base. Since sports cars are more a niche not a mainstream - not attracting much readers (except boys, and boy-wannabes).

So EVO has gone broader - and starting to review & rate other cars as well. But by the same criteria than the sports cars.

What has an executive sedan or an SUV to do with racing? Nothing.



....


The F10 the press has tested is meant for customers who want more comfort, and the ones who want all-in-one car (from comfort to sport) - therefore DDC etc on board.

For those who want regular 5er - they will order it without the active chassis & steering systems.

And those who will want more crisp will go for M-pack.

The most hard-core 5er buyers will opt for M5.

So, the press only had a chance to drive only one version of 5er. Yes, it's BMW fault since regular 5er wasn't brought there. But I guess they want to send a message to the world the new 5er is more refined & more comfortable & luxurious: just what most of the customers wanted to hear.

Regular & 5ers will be tested in the Spring when the market launch begins, and stock cars will be available. Same case for M-spec lowered chassis with sportier suspension.

 

[Sunny]

It's disrespectful to all the customers - the same ones who also do buy the magazine. Very hypocritical. Not to say very childish.

Hardly. People who buy Evo or other similar mags share their passion for driving. Others buy mags like 'consumer reports'.

 

[EnI]

You missed my point. It's not the job of a journalist to tell if a car met the demands of the prospective buyers. It's their job to compare a car to other cars and to voice the - subjective - feel they had driving it. This helps prospective buyers way more in their decision than a 'this car will meet its drivers demands'.

To me a true journalist tries to expose & present the truth. As OBJECTIVE as he can. Presenting all the important facts & aspects.

If someone just want's to explain his subjective view only, then he / she is a blogger, not a journalist. The only difference is (s)he does it officially via official mass media with a great amount of readers / viewers - instead on a personal blog.

Get it? Journalist vs blogger. Not everybody publishing in mass media is a journalist. Although (s)he think (s)he is.

Today many of journalists are not worth of this title. They are just bloggers, pretending to be journalists. And people even do buy that. How sad.

Besides, the increased weight most certainly plays a big part in the changed characteristics. You don't want to tell us that BMW added weight because customers wanted them to, do you?

No. But demand for more space, more equipment, more power etc resulted in higher weight. When the car was planned the raw material prices & energy prices were extremely high - therefore ALU construction was out of question for a car of such mass production. Otherwise the car would not be either price competitive or profitable. Also: the weight increase isn't that huge to affect the ride so much.

What makes a difference ("artificial feel") is the Adaptive Drive (ARS, DDC) & IAS. Something not present in E60. And that's a new experience & sensation. Different one. Not a worse one.

To get more realistic comparison, wait for a regular 5er drive - and then compare it to E60. Mind Adaptive Drive is there to offer more comfort. Damper may be controlled, but springs aren't!!!!! And they are set to offer greatest comfort possible. The regular car without AD will have completely different spring setting. Not to mention the regular 2WS inactive steering.

 

[EnI]

Hardly. People who buy Evo or other similar mags share their passion for driving. Others buy mags like 'consumer reports'.

So, why then SUVs and other cars which are not acronyms for driving passion are tested by EVO?

Just to tell the readers those are not sports cars, and not particularly fun to drive (eg. compared to a coupe) ?

Still ... I'm still convinced EVO star rating is completely fishy. And what it made me mad was the line saying "it's a 3-star car which needs all the gadgetry to make it a 4-star car". Meaning: it's a 4-star car, but only due to all the gadgetry. It sounds like the journalist is being mad since he falsely believes the regular car will be worse & even less sporty. But he obviously wasn't listening the press presentation by the BMW officials: where it was explained a lot.

As said in other post: regular 5er will have different (more direct) steering, different (harder) suspension - different spring setting & fixed damper rate. Etc. The driving sensation is much less "artificial".

BMW didn't brought regular 5er to the press drives since they wanted to send a message the new 5er is more comfortable, more refined & more luxurious. But to get that customers will have to pick several costly options. The regular 5er is still very much like E60.

 

[klier]

Hardly. People who buy Evo or other similar mags share their passion for driving. Others buy mags like 'consumer reports'.

Wimmer would say Lexus fans

 

[Sunny]

To me a true journalist tries to expose & present the truth. As OBJECTIVE as he can. Presenting all the important facts & aspects.

If someone just want's to explain his subjective view only, then he / she is a blogger, not a journalist. The only difference is (s)he does it officially via official mass media with a great amount of readers / viewers - instead on a personal blog.

Get it? Journalist vs blogger. Not everybody publishing in mass media is a journalist. Although (s)he think (s)he is.

Today many of journalists are not worth of this title. They are just bloggers, pretending to be journalists. And people even do buy that. How sad.

Eni, they are not journalists and they don't claim to be. They are editors and they editorialize - in other words - their opinion on something.

If all you want is objective facts about a car just look the manufactrer's web site for the numbers and features and stop their. Most of us want more.

 

[martinbo]

For the record EnI, EVO is most certainly not about sports cars only. It's about cars that are good to drive in general.

Look, let's wait for the dust to settle; Simister has been known to be vociferously critical of late. Let's wait and see for the rest of the team to re-rate the 5er against its peers.

EnI, you make clear and logical arguments and I don't completely disagree with them. But, you need to be more tolerant and less critical of automotive journalism - after all, it's an essential, vital component to the marketing and consumer awareness of cars and the sales that result from it. Owning a car is only objective from a numbers on paper point of view: what's it costing me, how much fuel does it use, how fast does it accelerate and so on.

Cars are infused with emotional appeal too - the highly subjective stuff - the JOY of driving a BMW on a good road with the car doing its master's bidding. I don't desperately want an M3 just because it makes sense on paper - I want one because, based on reviews and the opinions of my own professional motoring contacts, I am led to believe that this is the ultimate expression of my needs in a precision driving instrument.

I continue to harbour good feelings about the 5er - despite this potentially damning review - and I remain self-assured that, with familiarisation the 5er will emerge as the best combination of luxury and sporting spirit in its class.

So lets wait and see.

Oh, and on a personal note, great debate everyone. It was / is well-argued, forthright and yet, civil and respectful.

 

[EnI]

^

Yes, owning a car is VERY SUBJECTIVE experience. Therefore reading / listening other subjective experiences is somehow irrelevant. It's like listening to others about their sexual life. Completely irrelevant to yours.

If you want to find out if a car drives well - go to the nearest dealer & test drive the car. Not read the test in a magazine. Geez.

People who make an opinion of a product based on an article only (or on what other people say) are a bit pathetic. Passive.

It's like reading about sex & watching porn - and thinking it applies to real life perfectly. It doesn't.

I really do not have any sympathies towards auto press - despite it's a part of product / brand promotion. But often it's just too suggestive. It tries to be an alternative to PR. Sometimes an anti-PR, sometimes a hyper-PR.

Regarding over-critical EVO guy: yes, I can understand his frustration. He is like the guys who were frustrated when digital music formats replaced analogue ones: when CD player & MP3 players replaced an analogue vinyl LP gramophone & tape players as mainstream. Claiming the analogue formats were more genuine, romantic & better reproducing real life sounds - while digital formats are more "artificial".

Can you please explain me why X6M got only 2.5 stars, while the stock X6 50i got 4.5stars! By the same reviewer!!!!

I'll tell you: he was expecting I-don't-know-what and then he was completely disappointed. Since he thought the car will be 100 times better than 50i, and will drive like M6. C'mon - this guys are not real if they think like so, and have expectations like that.

 

[Human]

Followed the whole discussion....I am with EnI, simply because it's hard for most journalists / motoring press to be objective. Their will be true and trusted, reliable and objective car testers out there. Those ones that has been motoring journalists all their lives - most of them editors today. BUT most are only people with a diploma/degree in journalism that got the job and does not really have motoring and all that goes with it in their veins...IMO

Well, I have always made it clear...I just do not trust motoring journalist's opinions - NEVER have - NEVER will..

 

[Mr Robert]

Can you please explain me why X6M got only 2.5 stars, while the stock X6 50i got 4.5stars! By the same reviewer!!!!

One does what is expected and the other one doesn't?

Furhtermore, these marks sometimes change over time as the cars grow or weaknesses are revealed.

M3 and GTR are two good examples of this.

 

[EnI]

Trusting the press would mean nobody would ever buy an X6.

Since it's "pointless".

 

[coolraoul]

So, EnI, the job of a car journalist:

- Read carefully the carmaker's press release. It is what you will rephrase in your article.
- say amen
- quickly drive the car
- DO NOT give your impression of the car. You're a damn idiot, the car is perfect because the marketing dept says so. Instead, say what the press release explained, but with your own word. Be careful NOT TO ALTER THE MEANING though.
- give the stars in accordance to the price of the car: a more expensive car has more stars, because the stars are NOT a judgment of the car in relationship to its competitiveness, feeling, quality, competitors etc. The stars are only here to signal the place of the car in the line-up of the carmaker.

Be a good guy, maybe the carmaker will give you a banana for your good service.

Baically, as the marketing dept of the carmaker made studies about what customers want, the car is per se perfect and absolutely faultless, and nobody dares to criticize it because it would mean they're totally out of the reality.

It's indeed a well-known fact that marketing is an absolute science. It is absolutely unheard of in the mankind's history that a marketing team could be wrong. And of course, if a press release says the car is good, it cannot be bad. because the press release says so.


Now I'm not saying the 5er is bad. I'm not saying it's less fun to drive than the E60. I know nothing about that car, and I didn't read the EVO review! Heck, I've even never seen the car in the flesh.

What I'm saying is that your assertions are so marketing-driven, so BMW blinded, and so agressive towards anybody not adoring the 5er, that I could not let it go.

 

[Mr Robert]

Trusting the press would mean nobody would ever buy an X6.

Since it's "pointless".

People love pointless.

 

[martinbo]

People who make an opinion of a product based on an article only (or on what other people say) are a bit pathetic. Passive.

This is where I completely and wholly disagree with you. No one here has the opportunity to drive every conceivable car on the market. Automotive journals have the ability to evaluate a far greater sample of vehicles and convey the findings to their readers. The more accurate and consistent the assessment the more credibility earned by the publication.

The whole point to someone writing about something is so that someone reading the written word can learn something. The more reading that person does, the greater their exposure to various opinion. This is a fundamental premise of academic research and qualification - we can't all have gone to the moon to experience low gravity now can we? Instead, intelligent people read and discuss as much as they can on a particular topic. They begin to recognise credible opinion.

You cannot expect me to say that the Ferrari 458 is rubbish just because I haven't driven one. Nor, would I believe you more, or you me, on a personal and subjective level when imparting an opinion on the car over that of Harris or Sutcliffe.

I am not pathetic or passive if I believe in the opinions of experienced motoring journalists and my fellow driving instructors when they tell me it's a brilliant car. I have enough detailed knowledge to identify the consistency of report and opinion to put the facts together for myself for pete's sake.

We've had this discussion ad nauseaum in other threads.

What people fail to recognise is that there are journalists that are:
- better educated and more intelligent
- more experienced and talented drivers
than they are.

Those who singularly dismiss the validity of opinion from more learned and professional members of society are merely ensuring that their own personal and inexperienced opinion is relevant solely to their own little bubble of existence.

We can't learn everything for ourselves. We have the right to learn from others that do know better.

Fundamentals of higher learning.

I read a hell of a lot of automotive publication. It's my passion and pastime. In all of this reading I am able to analyse the styles and opinions of all the major publications and their pre-eminent journalists. Armed with these patterns of opinion, I am able to choose which opinion is the most common and consistent.

EVO seldom deviates from this consistent level of automotive opinion when it comes to views on a good-to-drive car. And that's what's being argued here.

 

[EnI]

One does what is expected and the other one doesn't?

Expected by whom?

The journalists? I don't know what their expectations are. Neither do BMW. But BMW clearly knows what are the expectations of potential customers interested in such a car. And they deliver.


@coolraoul: no, journalists shouldn't be blindfolded. But they should understand the car in a broader context. And write about it that way. Since the readers want to read / hear different views. Not just being presented with the feeling of me-me-me-me-me-the-mighty-"journalist"-or-editor. Or people just like to hear "opinion makers" - and follow the personality cult? I don't think so.

Everybody admits journalism is not what it used to be. Today its tabloidized, commercialized, too subjective, more about form than content etc. And automotive media are even more prone to this. EVO is no exception.

 

[Sunny]

^

Can you please explain me why X6M got only 2.5 stars, while the stock X6 50i got 4.5stars! By the same reviewer!!!!

You along with others are putting too much emphasis on the stars. It is just subjective rating they give after a drive with a bunch of variables - from expectations, the road (M3 was criticized by many for inaccurate steering but turns out the roads chosen for the first drive were just dusty), the weather, the guys mood, if he got some action last night... so stop loosing sleep over it. No one sensible is going to write the car off as a failure based on how many stars it got.