BMW 3-Series Still Top Dog despite Strong Competition

[martinbo]

BTW both me and my father doesnt have runflats, only my mum's new 118d still uses RF.

And neither of you carry a spare wheel? Space saver perhaps?

 

[Zafiro]

And neither of you carry a spare wheel? Space saver perhaps?

I dont know the english word but you buy a little black case from BMW with air compressor (not sure this is the name of it) and some extra addons. Never had to use it though.

EDIT: its called Mobility Kit

 

[Human]

^
Both my X6 and X1 has that repair kit that includes the valves, sealer and airpump for repairing a Run Flat Tyre. With a full blowout you have to get to your nearest tyre dealer or if too far from home, BMW ON CALL in SA will come and pick you up or if your're further than 100km from home they (BMW SA) will pay for you and your family to stay in a Hotel (All included in 'Motorplan' from BMW SA)...included in the purchase price of every new Beemer...

 

[martinbo]

Never had to use it? Have you tried it at least?

In SA runflats are an essential on a BMW and still not adequate enough given our huge distances outside of urbanisation.

Look, we're comparing completely different countries with completely different road standards. If you can get away with non Run-flats and no spare then super.

In South Africa driving a BMW around with non Run-flats and no spare wheel is almost suicidal.

Edit: Naas, I've heard that story before, but for every one person that did get put up by BMW in a hotel, 10 suffered a major inconvenience and "rond-fok" (run-around). I have tons of mates who use their Beemers for holiday travel in SA. One family in particular is dead scared to drive on dirt roads any more.

 

[Human]

Edit: Naas, I've heard that story before, but for every one person that did get put up by BMW in a hotel, 10 suffered a major inconvenience and "rond-fok" (run-around). I have tons of mates who use their Beemers for holiday travel in SA. One family in particular is dead scared to drive on dirt roads any more.

That's sad to hear Martin. Hindsight, for the December holidays and the Easter weekend I saw BMW ON CALL X1's & X3's assisting stranded non-BMW drivers on the N3 Toll Road between Johannesburg and Durban.

LOL how's that for BMW Creative Marketing!?

 

[fortuner]

On the subject off runflats and tyres..

i had a horrible incident on saturday nite in sandton on rivonia drive we came jhb for the weekend and were driving around and went past the merc dealership around 10 at nite and just after teh robot we hit a massive pothole it was raining so you couldnt see the hole..and my two tyres on right side busted anyway i had only one spare so i was in trouble...

It was a long night i called merc they said they can tow me in and arrange my hotel and stuff but it was too inconvienet luckily trentyre managed to help me we got two new tyres and stuff i finished off like 3 am...

 

[Zafiro]

Someone puncture all my four tyres on a parking lot once but it wasn't because of driving. I've been driving cars for almost 17 years and I have only had one puncture so far and it was with an old Golf with very old tires.

 

[Human]

On the subject off runflats and tyres..

i had a horrible incident on saturday nite in sandton on rivonia drive we came jhb for the weekend and were driving around and went past the merc dealership around 10 at nite and just after teh robot we hit a massive pothole it was raining so you couldnt see the hole..and my two tyres on right side busted anyway i had only one spare so i was in trouble...

It was a long night i called merc they said they can tow me in and arrange my hotel and stuff but it was too inconvienet luckily trentyre managed to help me we got two new tyres and stuff i finished off like 3 am...

I haven't had such a bad experience yet with the Run Flats ("touch wood"). fact is that I am NOT for Run Flats. The ride quality is harsh and not having a spare is inconvenient. Luckily BMW is offering the FL X5 & X6 with normal tyres and a spare.

 

[martinbo]

Or conversely, opt for the 335i instead of the iS, and you have a very sweet riding RWD saloon that still manages to deliver better balance & handling than a C-class.

Or, or... Go for the 335iS, put on smaller wheels and make sure they're NOT run-flats, and you have a very sweet riding RWD saloon that still manages to deliver better balance & handling than a C-class.

It's not so simple to put forward a converse case because consideration has to be given to the combined primary and secondary ride characteristics that are influenced by spring and damper rates, suspension travel, bushing, torsional body rigidity and finally, tyre sidewall flex and absorbtion characteristics. That's purely on the ride side of the equation. On the handling front there are too many factors to mention so getting into such a discussion would be futile.

A couple of more universally straightforward points would be that:
- A 335i inherently requires firm suspension to cope with the car's performance capability so no 335i on run-flats should be classed as sweet-riding.

- In the case of a 335iS, fitting smaller wheels with taller, non run-flat sidewalls will improve the secondary ride quality but the spring and damper rates would remain the same and so you still have the very firm primary ride characteristics.

What is "better balance and handling"? Should you make such a sweeping assumption for two RWD cars that are so similar in construction?

A couple of things are interesting to me when I personally evaluate the C-Class vs. 3 Series. Whilst the C-Class has become more sporting in its latest iteration (I'm not saying it is as sporting as a 3er) it still exhibits impressive ride characteristics whilst the 3er has become no more sporting yet its ride has come in for much more criticism compared with its forebear.

In my personal experience, I've found that underneath it all, stability systems entirely disabled (fuse pulled) a lowly C200 is a darn nicely balanced and adjustable vehicle on a glass-smooth skidpan (an environment surely more suited to the firmer sprung 3 Series). And, regarding the ride and handling compromise, I'll even stick my neck out and say this much: in stock standard spec, tyre-for-tyre size, the C-Class is closer to the 3er in terms of sportiness than the 3er is to the C-Class in terms of ride quality.

Is that more a reflection of the 335iS, or of the condition of roads in SA?
We hear a similar sentiment from our Aussie members about their roads. ...and not surprisingly, as we can read in this thread alone, they're pointing out that the more 'comfy' C-class is outselling the 3er in these two markets.
Level the playing field roads by making them better, and I'm guessing things might be different.

A discussion around what the quality of a road should be is impossible because there are so many factors that contribute to the quality of a road surface: economic, climate variability, usage, age, sophistication of road construction equipment and skill of labour.

We could go into a beautiful chat around why Aussie and SA roads aren't as baby-bum smooth as Germany's but after all - so what? Suspension is as suspension does: keep the body of a vehicle as insulated and as stable as deemed necessary from the inherent variability of road surfaces.

In the end, all manufacturers strive for the best possible ride vs. handling trade-off. This is the holy grail of suspension tuning - to achieve a comprise between two diametrically opposed criteria. In my opinion the BMW 3 series does handle more sharply but it's the C-Class that strikes the better compromise between the two.

 

[martinbo]

Someone puncture all my four tyres on a parking lot once but it wasn't because of driving. I've been driving cars for almost 17 years and I have only had one puncture so far and it was with an old Golf with very old tires.

I've easily had 30 or more punctures in my 20 years of driving.

Africa.

 

[Zafiro]

In the end, all manufacturers strive for the best possible ride vs. handling trade-off. This is the holy grail of suspension tuning - to achieve a comprise between two diametrically opposed criteria..

Be careful what you wish for. Next 3-series coming soon going to be a lot more comfy and less sportier than current E90.
Just look at new 5 vs old or new z4 vs old z4.

Is that what you really want to happen with the 3-series just so you can drive a few extra miles? I rather see more sport than comfort.

 

[Human]

In the end, all manufacturers strive for the best possible ride vs. handling trade-off. This is the holy grail of suspension tuning - to achieve a comprise between two diametrically opposed criteria. In my opinion the BMW 3 series does handle more sharply but it's the C-Class that strikes the better compromise between the two.

I will back you on that one! Albeit that does not include the W203 C-class vs. The E46 3-Series, the W203 had a best-in-class suspension comfort but handling could not be compared to that of the E46 (the latter being more compliant in ride also compared to the E90)

 

[Human]

Be careful what you wish for. Next 3-series coming soon going to be a lot more comfy and less sportier than current E90.
Just look at new 5 vs old or new z4 vs old z4.

Is that what you really want to happen with the 3-series just so you can drive a few extra miles? I rather see more sport than comfort.

Ye, I agree it would definitely be more comfortable although I will disagree that the next 3er would be really less sporty - maybe more 'balanced' i.e. W204 C-class or the older E46

 

[martinbo]

Be careful what you wish for. Next 3-series coming soon going to be a lot more comfy and less sportier than current E90.

Huh?

What is it in my words that you quoted that leads you to make the statement about me being careful what I wish for? In those words, I've not wished for anything - but rather stated a fact.

The ride-handling compromise is a scale that tries to balance two conflicting requirements - Ride [comfort, smoothness, insulation] vs. Handling [Sharpness, Body Control, Grip] :

Ride < - < - < - < vs. > - > - > - > Handling

Ride < - < - < - < > - > - > - > Handling
BMW 3er.....................^

Ride < - < - < - < > - > - > - > Handling
C-Class...............^

It's quite interesting that - immaculate European roads aside - globally road surface quality and evenness is steadily deteriorating purely as a result of the pressures placed on them by ever increasing usage.

It's not what I wish for - it's the reality that car makers have to face with every new model introduction.

 

[fortuner]

In my view BMW especially with the 3 er needs to be carefull they dont go toomuch down the comfort road ath teh expense off the normal BMW style driving this i think could be a big mistake..if you read reviews it seems the A6 seems to be a better handler in some reviews then the 5 dare i say one off my friends who drove my E350cdi felt it handles better then the new 5...i think in terms off the market with teh 5 or 7 they may get away with that to a certain extent because its more a excluse class but the 3 is more lower entry car where i think a lot off teh market buy a 3 because its the sportiest. already know a few friends and family who would never have bought a Merc because they felt it was for the older folks but with the W204 they have purchased the W204 C class and love the car i know they wont go back to a 3 in a hurry unless merc messes up the next C which i doubt...

I really feel here in SA the W204 has been a HUGE and i mean a HUGE succes...

 

[fortuner]

Huh?

What is it in my words that you quoted that leads you to make the statement about me being careful what I wish for? In those words, I've not wished for anything - but rather stated a fact.

The ride-handling compromise is a scale that tries to balance two conflicting requirements - Ride [comfort, smoothness, insulation] vs. Handling [Sharpness, Body Control, Grip] :

Ride < - < - < - < vs. > - > - > - > Handling

Ride < - < - < - < > - > - > - > Handling
BMW 3er.....................^

Ride < - < - < - < > - > - > - > Handling
C-Class...............^

It's quite interesting that - immaculate European roads aside - globally road surface quality and evenness is steadily deteriorating purely as a result of the pressures placed on them by ever increasing usage.

It's not what I wish for - it's the reality that car makers have to face with every new model introduction.

Awesome illustaration Martin..

 

[Merc1]

Agree with you there when comparing 7er & S, but its rather interesting where they meet in the middle: 5er vs. E.

Yes it really is. I think BMW and Mercedes equally rule the middle class. The E is the luxury car of choice, as the 5er is the sportier choice. Though it seems the 5 has moved closer to the E in the luxury/comfort aspect. Nothing else even comes close in sales in the U.S., not the A6, GS, M, XF, STS, RL or anything. Not even Lexus has been ale to crack the middle class like they have the lower and upper classes with the IS and LS. We'll see what their new GS will do. The Lexus GS suffers from various problems and Lexus hasn't been able to sort them out since its inception.


M

 

[ACE]

However, at least for now, the 3-Series is retaining its place as America’s (and indeed, the world’s) favorite small premium car. This in spite of strong competition, changing tastes in the market and the slump in the premium segment following the GFC.


Source: BMW 3-Series Still Top Dog despite Strong Competition - Carscoop

I suspected that this statement was wrong http://www.germancarforum.com/3-ser...og-despite-strong-competition.html#post515334

and now EnI has posted the global sales figures by model in another thread and proved them wrong http://www.germancarforum.com/autom...2011-global-sales-audi-bmw-mb.html#post515912


Carscoop, check your facts...

 

[EnI]

^

Actually ... as a trademark 3-series is still world market leader, since Audi offers only sedan & wagon under A4 badge, while coupe, cabrio & 4dr coupe are offered under A5 badge. But when you add A5 sales to the A4 sales figures, it's obvious Audi is much more successful in this segment than BMW.


1Q (Jan - Mar) 2011 global sales figures:

3er series : A4 series
87,762 : 76,922

3er series : A4 + A5 series
87,765 : 105,933

3er Sedan & Touring : A4 Sedan & Avant (Allroad incl)
70,819 : 76,922 (74,116 w/o Allroad)

3er Sedan : A4 Sedan
55,505 : 47,537

3er Touring : A4 Avant (incl. Allroad)
15,314 : 29,385 (26,579 w/o Allroad)

3er Coupe : A5 Coupe
9,618 : 9,773

3er Cabrio : A5 Cabrio
7,325 : 5,711

A5 Sportback : /
13,527 : /


Conclusion based on 1Q 2011 sales figures: 3er sedan sells a bit better than A4 sedan, A4 Avant trashes 3er Touring (with almost 2:1), 3er cabrio sells better than A5 cabrio, 3er coupe & A5 coupe are actually tied, while Audi has an advantage of additional model in this segment: the A5 Sportback (4edr coupe) which sells extremely well. Even A5 Sportback excl. Audi sells more cars in this segment then BMW does: 92,406 vs 87,765 (89,600 vs 87,765 - comparable models only, A4 Allroad & A5 Sportback excluded).

 

[bmwownage]

I think it is hard to judge what "handling" is. For example, the current E92 M3 can arguably be said to be "softer" than the C63 right? Yet on a track, or where ever, the E92 is still the better handling car despite the "softness".
With the E vs 5 thing, i'm not sure, i haven't had a chance to get a ride in both but soft/comfort doesn't mean worse handling, it might just give an apparent feeling that it is less sportier while actually a more superior handling package.
It's hard to compare across generations, i mean, the E46 is ultra damn soft compared to anything now, like a standard E87 feels 10 times stiffer.
But I totally agree that regardless, the 3series should not be on the too soft side, it doesn't need to be, it really needs to handle better and give an apparent feeling that it handles better, and make the car lighter please.