U.S. BMW 1-Series still two years off

[bum-man]

I get tired of constantly having to defend my points.

There would be no point of this forum if you didn't have too.

 

[Osnabrueck]

I think the "1er canabolizing 3er sales" theory is a bunch of very much basless agrumentation just for the sake of giving a camp of self concious indivduals something to talk about and feel justified in their minds.

Not sure if you were specifically responding to me, but I don't personally believe that the 1er would cannibalize 3er sales. However, BMW has to be very selective about what 1er's they introduce and how they choose to go about pricing and positioning those models.

Basically, BMW would be smart to limit the US 1er range to just a coupe and a convertible, both with 6-cyl engines and a list of standard equipment that exceeds what's being offered in Europe. I don't see the appeal of a sedan or hatchback model. In a few months, a slew of value-priced hatchbacks will be hitting the US market (Yaris, Fit/Jazz, Versa), and American sensibilities will immediatly assign poor marks for a BMW that follows suit. The situation isn't quite the same in Europe where hatchbacks are the order of the day and wagons are the natural proposition for anybody with a family.

 

[Deutsch]

Not sure if you were specifically responding to me, but I don't personally believe that the 1er would cannibalize 3er sales. However, BMW has to be very selective about what 1er's they introduce and how they choose to go about pricing and positioning those models.

Basically, BMW would be smart to limit the US 1er range to just a coupe and a convertible, both with 6-cyl engines and a list of standard equipment that exceeds what's being offered in Europe. I don't see the appeal of a sedan or hatchback model. In a few months, a slew of value-priced hatchbacks will be hitting the US market (Yaris, Fit/Jazz, Versa), and American sensibilities will immediatly assign poor marks for a BMW that follows suit. The situation isn't quite the same in Europe where hatchbacks are the order of the day and wagons are the natural proposition for anybody with a family.

I agree, looks like we're on somewhat of the same page. In my statement about the cannibalization argument I was not refering to you.

 

[Deutsch]

There would be no point of this forum if you didn't have too.

Must we have anymore antagonist on this board? You and Imhotep are VERY much alike.

 

[Osnabrueck]

Haha. Excellent post. I agree with how Americans view German brands mostly because I too am a Los Angelos Shlub. But, you have to remember how successful the Mini has been here (especially in So Cal) and 9/10 people know its a BMW product. I also dont think an affordable BMW that everyone can aspire to own is going to hurt the image because all BMW products are good, even the 1....

This is the thing about Mini - It's got a twofold advantage that props it up above other vehicles in it's class. 1) It's a quirky British car with popular lines. 2) People kinda know that it's a BMW because it's sold at BMW dealers.

Thing is - the "badge factor" works in reverse with Mini. It gets the benefit of association with BMW, while at the same time enjoying premium econocar status. This doesn't bother BMW owners all that much, because the Mini/BMW connection is somewhat known, but not spelled out for all to see.

Hoever - if the shoe is on the other foot, the oppisite happens. It's all well and good, so long as the US 1ers are relatively expensive and sport a quality that is a clear cut above similar, less expensive offerings from other brands.

I'll remain skeptical. The C-Hatch seemed like a natural move for Benz at the time, but in hindsight, it wasn't such a good idea.

 

[bum-man]

Must we have anymore antagonist on this board?

I'm not attacking you in any way. I'm simply saying if you can't take criticism then don't post. Simple as that.

 

[warot]

Must we have anymore antagonist on this board? You and Imhotep are VERY much alike.

No offense to you Deutsch, but sometimes you sudden change of mind on the subject does raise a few eyebrows.

But anyway, I think Osna is spot on. If the 1er can be marketed as a "higher end" cheap BMW, then there would be no problem. The prospect of a small BMW coupe with a decent engine is mouth watering.

 

[Deutsch]

The C-Hatch seemed like a natural move for Benz at the time, but in hindsight, it wasn't such a good idea.

Is Jurgen Schrempp to blame for that scew up too?

 

[Deutsch]

No offense to you Deutsch, but sometimes you sudden change of mind on the subject does raise a few eyebrows.

What else can I say? I have my own mind.

 

[Matt]

This is the thing about Mini - It's got a twofold advantage that props it up above other vehicles in it's class. 1) It's a quirky British car with popular lines. 2) People kinda know that it's a BMW because it's sold at BMW dealers.

Thing is - the "badge factor" works in reverse with Mini. It gets the benefit of association with BMW, while at the same time enjoying premium econocar status. This doesn't bother BMW owners all that much, because the Mini/BMW connection is somewhat known, but not spelled out for all to see.

Hoever - if the shoe is on the other foot, the oppisite happens. It's all well and good, so long as the US 1ers are relatively expensive and sport a quality that is a clear cut above similar, less expensive offerings from other brands.

I'll remain skeptical. The C-Hatch seemed like a natural move for Benz at the time, but in hindsight, it wasn't such a good idea.

Your right. The "badge factor" worked really well for Mini and BMW. I still dont think it would hurt BMW's image if mini was badged BMW (except for FWD, but the 1er is RWD-which doesnt hurt that ultimate driving machine appeal ). If you step into the mini you can tell by the quality of the interior, the rigidity around bends and the steering feel that this car is head and shoulders above the PT and the Beetle, which BMW doesnt want to compete with because that would really destroy their image.

 

[klier]

Is Jurgen Schrempp to blame for that scew up too?

Isn't he the one to be blamed for everything?

After all, MB has problems and he's the one responsible in the end. BTW, I have never liked the man's glasses

 

[Imhotep Evil]

OMg, where have we arrived here.

1.
MINI is MINI, BMW is BMW and Rolls Royce is Rolls Royce.
There is a connection between with BMW and MINI, but BMW=BMW and MINI=MINI with no BMW badge on it .

2.
Second the role of the 1 series coupe/cabrio.
The 3 series stated as the replacement of the 2002. But it got larger, it got 2 extra doors and an interior once reserved for the 5 series.
The E90 3 series is actually a car inbetween the old 3 series and 5 series.
So a spot is left opened for a car to continue where the 2002 left off.

3.
All this electronic that some of you people hate has an important role to play.
With the iDrive it just becomed visible, but it was there since the 70s.
Without electronics controling variuous functions of the engine, where would the proformance and/or fuel eficiency be ?!
How would cars perform and handle and be safe like they are today ?!

 

[EnI]

BMW is playing with media saying they do know when the 1er/2er will come to US, and in what form.

US will get 1er/2er coupe & cabrio, coming late 2007 / early 2008. No sedan. No hatch. No touring.

BMW will do everything to make 1er/2er Coupe & Cabrio a hit - especially in the US.
Marketing activities will be based on comparing / refering 1-series Coupe to the legendary BMW 2002 (1-series coupe will be almost exactly the same size as 2002, and it has good chances to be called 2-series - especially to avoid potentially using M1 trademark). The reincarnation of the legend. Rebirth of the car that made BMW so famous.

To make place for 1er/2er coupe / cabrio the E92/3 will be pushed upmarket.

Since 1er/2er will be more of a "funky BMW" - with very limited interior space, it will not canabalize the 3er. It will be positioned between MINI and E92/3 3er. (I guess in 25k - 30k area). Not so funky as MINI, yet not so seriuous as 3er. For young, and young at heart. And nostalgic people.

A lovely little car - a true BMW: perfect handling & steering, powerful engine, strong performance, optional luxury features, exciting styling, having own personality / character. Not being just a shrinked 3er.

IMO this formula will work fine.

 

[Osnabrueck]

Is Jurgen Schrempp to blame for that scew up too?

Personally, I don't know gave birth to the C-Hatch, or who let it out of the gate. However, it's a example of where a luxury brand identified a downmarket segement that should have been like shooting fish in a barrel, but instead sold poorly and at the same time soiled the brand's reputation stateside.

( I didn't help things that the initial marketing campeign was laser-pointed at women )

 

[Matt530i]

Since 1er/2er will be more of a "funky BMW" - with very limited interior space, it will not canabalize the 3er. It will be positioned between MINI and E92/3 3er. (I guess in 25k - 30k area). Not so funky as MINI, yet not so seriuous as 3er. For young, and young at heart. And nostalgic people.

I don't think that the 1/2er will cannibalize the 3er, but there is a chance that it will cannibalize some MINI sales. There will not be a huge difference in price between a Cooper S and a 1/2er, and MINIs benefit from being "funky" cars that are built by BMW. If you can have a "funky" BMW that is fun to drive and get the BMW badge as well, some people will make the jump. The extra money shouldn't be an issue as MINIs aren't exactly cheap in their segment.

The extent of the cannibalization will depend on how strong the brand is, how much of an emotional attraction the MINI look has with owners / potential buyers and how the 1/2er is differentiated through marketing.

 

[Osnabrueck]

Market data tells us that Minis have the HIGHEST repeat business to vehicle malfunction ratio in the entire automotive industry. In fact - the only vehicles that fare better than the mini are exotics, or near exotics like the Corvette Z06.

The Mini brand has the "it" fact or that drills into the brains of consumers for completely irrational reasons. In a parallel universe, where Mini was never reborn, I'd see these same buyers walking the Volkswagen lots, or perhaps looking at Scions.

So, as I see it, the 1er doesn't pose much a threat to the Mini franchise, because we're talking about two different kinds of buyers. Also, the 3er has been upsized well enough that it's legitimately graduated from the "small compact" club. The same thing has happened to Honda with their Civic - once upon a time it was their lil' everycar, now it's grown so big there's plenty of room for the Fit/Jazz to hold up the rear.

Still, BMW has to be very concious that they launch a "small sporty" BMW and not an "affordable" BMW. I'm guessing they'll do the right thing in the US by leaving the 4-pot motors behind, shoving up the MSRP by default. I also don't think it would hurt the 3er franchise if the 325i (or whatever the bottom trim car is at the time) was dropped in favor of a slightly more expensive configuration that makes the gap between the 3 and the 1 more distinct.

 

[EnI]

I don't think that the 1/2er will cannibalize the 3er, but there is a chance that it will cannibalize some MINI sales. There will not be a huge difference in price between a Cooper S and a 1/2er, and MINIs benefit from being "funky" cars that are built by BMW. If you can have a "funky" BMW that is fun to drive and get the BMW badge as well, some people will make the jump. The extra money shouldn't be an issue as MINIs aren't exactly cheap in their segment.

The extent of the cannibalization will depend on how strong the brand is, how much of an emotional attraction the MINI look has with owners / potential buyers and how the 1/2er is differentiated through marketing.

I don't think 1er/2er will canabalize MINI either.

MINI is a specific brand / vehicle. It's a hatch, not a classic coupe like 1er/2er will be. MINI addresses people with specific preferences & lifestyles. MINI is kind a statement - a vehicle with a special shape, styling, individualization options, etc.

While 1er/2er will be a true BMW. But the more funky one - kind a Z3 / Z4 funky, but not as expensive. But it will be of course much more serious than MINI.

Trust BMW - they will do it right. They are masters of positioning & persuading customers to believe in the offered perception / positioning.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Matt, Osna and Eni I agree with you guys.
Also you guys forgut to mention one thing.
MINI is FWD, THE "volume" car/brand that made FWD popular, while BMW is RWD (also RDW-ish AWD), heck BMW is THE car/brand that worked under the "FWD is the work of Satan" philosophy.

 

[Deutsch]

M Werks article on the 1er coming to the U.S.

Where is America's 1 Series?

More questions than answers

Mar 21, 2006

By: Bryan Joslin

BMW did an evil thing in March of 2002 when it teased the automotive world with its CS1 Concept at the Geneva Motor Show. Even though the concept car was a four-passenger, two-door convertible, the CS1 seemed to affirm the long-standing rumor that BMW would indeed offer a completely new small coupe or sedan series, just below the 3 Series on the blue and white totem pole.

Two years later, the production version sat on the stand at Geneva, but it wasn’t a convertible, or even a coupe for that matter. Instead, the first iteration of the newly christened 1 Series was a 5-door sedan, and it was a controversial car in many ways. For starters, BMW is not traditionally known for building hatchbacks. Additionally, the long, sloping roofline and nearly non-existent bumper overhangs made for a profile that can best be summarized as unconventional. And the exuberant use of “flame surfacing” on the body panels drew its fair share of criticism.

Nevertheless, BMW had just launched the spiritual, if not the visual, successor to the 2002, the car that really put BMW on driving enthusiasts’ map. In fact, the 1 Series was actually 3mm shorter than the original ’02, and was powered by range of sophisticated 4-cylinder engines. You could almost hear the hearts of die-hard Bimmer-philes pounding in anticipation of the return of the small BMW.

We skeptical Yanks raised the question immediately- will North America get the 1 Series? Early answers from BMW’s North American personnel indicated that yes, indeed, we will get a version of the 1 Series. But not the same car that Europe and most of the rest of the world would be offered.

From the outset, BMW executives have been cautious in revealing their plans for bringing the 1 Series to this market, but they have always insisted on two conditions: 1) It will not come here with a four-cylinder engine, and 2) It will not come here as a hatchback, period.

So where does that leave us? Well, from the two definitive statements from BMW, we can surmise that we will get a “trunked” body and a six-cylinder engine. We can safely assume that when it comes, our 1 Series will likely arrive as a 130i (as this is already available in Europe) joined perhaps by an entry-level 125i. The 3.0-liter six in the 130i is the same N52 engine as found in the new E90 3 Series, so it makes sense they could offer the detuned version as a 125i, as they do for the 3 Series. And I’ve heard at least one exec use the term “125i” speculatively.

As for what body style we will get, those same BMW folks remain quite nebulous. Considering the original 1 Series concept was a two-door convertible, it seems only logical that there will be a convertible version at some point. And since most convertibles are based on two-door coupes, it makes sense that we could expect to see a coupe first. This would also follow BMW’s now-common 3 Series pattern- sedans and wagons first, coupes next, convertibles last.

Oddly enough though, every time I ask about a 1 Series coupe, I’m inevitably flashed a look of confusion. “Why a coupe instead of a sedan?”, they ask.

It seems that, internally at least, there is more support for a 4-door sedan version of the 1 Series. Having spent time in the 5-door 120i, I think this would be a mistake. The interior of the 1 Series is indeed compact. Ingress to and egress from the back seat are best left to those less than five feet tall. Knee room in back is tight, and the sloping roofline dictates minimal headroom. Adapting the 5-door to a conventional (more or less) 3-box shape will certainly not be kind to the rear passengers’ headspace.

BMW’s rationalizes its support for a 1 Series sedan over a coupe by citing the dwindling interest in coupes in the US market. While this may be true in general, BMW should be careful not to underestimate its history with sporty, premium coupes. Driving enthusiasts have long associated BMW with coupes. The fact that the M3 is no longer offered as a sedan would seem to confirm this.

I believe, as do many others, that the 1 Series will appeal not only to image-conscious young professionals looking for something more interesting than a Jetta or RSX, but also to serious driving enthusiasts who yearn for a smaller, lighter, sharper, BMW than the current 3 Series. A 1 Series in coupe form would be the ideal image car for a whole new generation of drivers, and would have far greater effect in doing so than a 4-door counterpart.

The last big question remains “When?” Initial speculation was that we would get a version of the 1 Series for the 2007 model year. That got pushed back to the 2007 calendar year. By now it’s obvious that we won’t be getting a 1 Series until after it receives a mid-term makeover, which will probably take place in the 2008 model year. At this point, the best guess is that North America will finally get the 1 Series, in some form, in the 2008 calendar year, likely as a 2009 model.

For now, BMW is keeping its lips sealed as to the final decision about the 1 Series. More details will inevitably unfold in the coming months and we’ll be here to fill you in. If you would like a to add your input, please participate in the survey in the attached forum.

 

[Porsche Guy]

Deutsch, thanks for the article. I can only pray that a 1 series coupe makes it to the US one day.