Vs AutoBild: Audi Q7 V12 TDI vs. Porsche Cayenne Turbo S

[chonkoa]

I think people are having a hard time accepting "change" with something as defining and traditionally focused as BMW M. BMW M stands for no-nonsense purism, but they've moved into other niches because there is obviously a demand for other BMWs with the M treatment: the X5 M and X6 M. Maybe in the future we'll even see an M7, but for now I think Alpina does a good job of making the 7-Series sportier than it already is.

That is what is it.
The only constant force in the universe is change, and it is the most difficult phenomenon to manage as well. Change too soon and you leave everyone behind, change too late and you are left behind.
The Brand recognises this and have acted accordingly.

 

[Merc1]

Nonsense. These 2 M SUVs have nothing to do with "change". They have everything to do with market pressures from MB/Porsche and the desire to generate more profit. True "change" would be to move away from such vehicles and not follow MB and Porsche into such segments. Change is going the other way, lighter more fuel efficient vehicles, not hulking, mega-hp, suvs.

How in the world can these new M vehicles can represent change beyond the obvious tossing out the M rule book is beyond me. The X6/X6 M follow the same formula used by MB/BMW/Porsche in their various tuner products.


M

 

[chonkoa]

I believe one of the definitions of change is "To lay aside, abandon, or leave for another".
Responding to market forces is change.
So BMW producing an M version of X5/6- series which was not their oriiginal philosophy represents change.

 

[Merc1]

And...by the looks of it...change in the wrong direction and eating a huge flock of crows in the process. I believe I mentioned that in my previous post. Clearly this isn't a change BMW had to or in some people's opinions should have made. Calling it change is just a big fat excuse for chasing Porsche and Mercedes into a specific market segment. Responding to market forces doesn't necessarily mean that M should have "abandoned or laid aside" what made them great in the first place.

Sure the X6 M in particular will likely stomp the segment, but in generating the projected performance/numbers it sold all of the tradition M qualities and has become a number generator (at least it looks that way on paper so far).

To add insult to injury these M hulks fly in the face of everything else (green) that BMW seems to be trying to do so this about change is a complete crock IMO. Sold and pimped the M brand to get a piece of the ML63 and Cayenne GTS/Turbo/S market is what happened here.


M

 

[klier]

I am not even going to read all the negative comments anymore. It's the same all the time all over again
You guys keep discussing it, I am going to wait for the first reviews where it will become completely clear that the X5/6 M models are the best performance SUVs on the market.

 

[martinbo]

EVO: 2.5 stars for the X6M. The miracle that the M-Division pulled off in the past with cars like M5 in terms of handling balance and poise never materialised.

According to them the X6M brings nothing to the table over the X6 xDrive50i to justify the go faster bits and price premium. The also say that the engine note is dull like a four cylinder. This is entirely believable as twin-scroll turbocharging does have a strange effect on engine note.

 

[klier]

LOL....evo

X6 is the best performance SUV ever made, so if Evo gives it 2.5 stars, both ML63 and Cayenne Turbo (S) should be 2 stars or less

So 2.5 stars means what compared to what? A Ferrari California or M5? Or Toyota Landcruiser or RAV 4?

 

[martinbo]

Actually, EVO [boink] loves the ML63 because it's a great AMG version. They say it's mad and bad and drives much better than they'd have expected. Same goes for the Cayenne. Both are cars that exceeded expectations.

The X5M and X6M won't meet expectations because of the association with BMW M's past achievements. Still, they'll sell like hotcakes perhaps...

 

[Tarek]

Yea the ML63 AMG is nice...

IMO this is the best looking performance SUV out there,and a very capable one too.

 

[Sunny]

Actually, EVO [boink] loves the ML63 because it's a great AMG version. They say it's mad and bad and drives much better than they'd have expected.

So they use a sliding scale and the scale is pretty low for AMG?

 

[martinbo]

LOL sunny - I dunno. I'm just relaying the message. EVO thinks the X6M is kak. EVO likes the ML63 AMG, as does Chris Harris and Tiff Needell (iirc), apparently it's a very biddable and involving car to drive for its size and weight.

Actually, in my opinion, the ML63 pulls off the performance SUV thing more convincingly than the BMW vulgarwagen twins. IMO of course... still love my BMWs - don't be a hatin'.

 

[Sunny]

IMO of course... still love my BMWs - don't be a hatin'.

Haha, of course not, Martin. The whole M SUV debate is so overdone around here, I rather eat yesterday's sushi, but just couldn't resist that one last jab.

 

[Mr Robert]

I am not even going to read all the negative comments anymore. It's the same all the time all over again
You guys keep discussing it, I am going to wait for the first reviews where it will become completely clear that the X5/6 M models are the best performance SUVs on the market.

It is the inherent contradtiction that is the problem right there. It is not possible to build a SUV to perform like an M car. Why? Because "performance" in a performance SUV from BMW is something else compared to what "performance" is in a performance SUV from Mercedes.

I think almost every initial review confirms this.

 

[klier]

^ If it bothers you so much, just forget the letter M and simply see the car for what it is compared to the other 2300KG + trucks, and not compared to other M cars. Sheesh. That's all I'm saying. Compared to any other truck, they do not disappoint. They're relatively cheap and insanely powerful.

Actually, EVO [boink] loves the ML63 because it's a great AMG version. They say it's mad and bad and drives much better than they'd have expected. Same goes for the Cayenne. Both are cars that exceeded expectations.

The X5M and X6M won't meet expectations because of the association with BMW M's past achievements. Still, they'll sell like hotcakes perhaps...

That doesn't mean anything. They are just disappointed with the X6 M because it's so different from all the other M cars. But that doesn't mean that it is less good than ML63 or Cayenne Turbo, because it's actually better. If they were expecting some sort of high revving X5 Le Mans V12 monster, I understand disappointment...

So they use a sliding scale and the scale is pretty low for AMG?

Bingo

 

[klier]

Oh and one more thing:

You guys remember the initial reviews of the E92 M3?
It was like heaven crashing down on earth. That bad. I vividly remember Just_Me's signature petition....

 

[martinbo]

Yes. I did. And you make a good point.

But, I was intelligent enough to first wait for EVO and Dickie Meaden to peel away the layers of the M3 and discover the actual magnificence that it is. The rest of the publications then suddenly changed their tune as I remember it.

With the X6M review, there's no doubt that EVO's being a bit harsh, but it's very apparent: the point that EVO is trying to get across is that for less dosh an X6 xDrive50i is a 4.5 star car that sounds better, is lighter and does much the same thing besides accelerate as fast.

Sure the X6M is good value for money - but the question at hand is, is it really any better than an X6 xDrive50i to justify the:
a) Primary importance - price premium
b) Secondary importance - gratuitous use of the once "hallowed in BMW" M moniker.

People, this debate could go on for ever. Ultimately, the sales will or will not speak for themselves. Maybe there are hundreds of people in many countries who want nothing more than a big, heavy, brash, shouty and rapid SUV from their favourite brand. Will this car attract buyers from the Cayenne and ML63 pools? Hell, people, I'd be very surprised.

In the end, conceded, the X6M will probably be the fastest, best handling* big SUV on the market and that's all it really needs to be. Which is sad for passionate BMW appreciators like me.

* By best handling I mean sure-footed and grippy. But then BMW M cars we so much more than just this.

 

[Sunny]

One last thing from me before I sign off on this topic...

A particular member (and no, not you Martin ) is always (with a capital A) on about how X6 M is not mechanically different enough from the vanilla X6. So my surprise, when I saw the same member bithcing in anothe thread about how BMW dosn't offer a LSD on base versions of 3er and you have to get an M to get it. Maybe BMW should have done the same with X6 and held back goodies like the DPC for the M version but then he would have probably bitched about that. It is damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Ok, now I am off to eating yesterday's sushi.

 

[martinbo]

^ So true and very well said. Point noted.

But let the record reflect that I'm still going to heartily debate against the X6M until I have enough cash to buy one!

 

[Mr Robert]

^ If it bothers you so much, just forget the letter M and simply see the car for what it is compared to the other 2300KG + trucks, and not compared to other M cars. Sheesh. That's all I'm saying. Compared to any other truck, they do not disappoint. They're relatively cheap and insanely powerful.

I just wonder why M decided that these cars did not need any work done on them? Mission impossible? No need, as those who buys them are only interested in the badge, not a real M car?

 

[klier]

No, because it really is a mission impossible. You cannot make a sportscar out of a truck, so they didn't bother. If you want to make a sporstcar out of a truck, you would have to radically change it's shape, and then it wouldn't be an SUV anymore
And they're not interested in the badge, but interested in a great crazy fast SUV from BMW.

Sure the X6M is good value for money - but the question at hand is, is it really any better than an X6 xDrive50i to justify the:
a) Primary importance - price premium
b) Secondary importance - gratuitous use of the once "hallowed in BMW" M moniker.

Of course. The X6 M is the fastest production SUV ever made right? It's faster than a €50,000 more expensive Cayenne Turbo S. And a full second faster to 100km/h than the X6 5.0. That's like, HUGE.
As for the secondary importance, I could seriously not care less about that. For me it's always been the car, and not the name.

But let the record reflect that I'm still going to heartily debate against the X6M until I have enough cash to buy one!

I'll be here Martin, for a listening ear