Why doesn't BMW participate in DTM?

[Habitual Speeder]

Well, picture Formula 1 with 4 cylinder engines, get it now?

My favourite F1 era had 1.5L V6 turbo engines making unreal amounts of HP.

 

[Habitual Speeder]

Well precisely my point.

About why Audi & M-B aren't in WTCC?

 

[bmer]

My favourite F1 era had 1.5L V6 turbo engines making unreal amounts of HP.

To each his own, I guess.

 

[Habitual Speeder]

To each his own, I guess.

You betcha!

 

[Imhotep Evil]

My favourite F1 era had 1.5L V6 turbo engines making unreal amounts of HP.

The V10s in the initial 3.5 litre spec. would have equalled that.



Also the ETCC had them all:

- V12: DeTomaso Pantera, Jaguar XJS
- V8s: MB AMG, Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro, Plymouth HemiCuda
- boxer 6: Porsche 911
- inline 6 BMW
- inline 4 BMW

 

[Habitual Speeder]

The V10s in the initial 3.5 litre spec. would have equalled that.

I'm not disputing that...I think I've mentioned it before that I loved F1 from the mid 80's to the mid 90's. My only point to mentioning the V6 turbos was to point out that the size of the engine doesn't make a racing series more exciting.

Also the ETCC had them all:

- V12: DeTomaso Pantera, Jaguar XJS
- V8s: MB AMG, Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro, Plymouth HemiCuda
- boxer 6: Porsche 911
- inline 6 BMW
- inline 4 BMW

Yup...ETCC was great, but I wasn't aware of a V12 Pantera.

 

[bum-man]

I would rather see Alfa return.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

I'm not disputing that...I think I've mentioned it before that I loved F1 from the mid 80's to the mid 90's. My only point to mentioning the V6 turbos was to point out that the size of the engine doesn't make a racing series more exciting.



Yup...ETCC was great, but I wasn't aware of a V12 Pantera.

My bad, Mea Culpa, it was a V8.

Here it is.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Also Mazda was there with a rotary engine.

 

[Habitual Speeder]

My bad, Mea Culpa, it was a V8.

No worries.

 

[RICHBOY]

WTCC is more cost effective and it's a FIA World Championship sloted bellow only Formula 1 and the WRC.

So why don't MB and Audi participate in the WTCC ?!

That's a good question?

 

[Imhotep Evil]

That's a good question?

Well good to see a fellow sharing the same idea.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Well, I can see from BMW's Motorsports website that BMW officially participates in 3 racing series: F1, WTCC, and Formula BMW.

I learned quite a bit from the WTCC website, as I was not aware of its existence. Basically, it is a FIA endorsed touring car series, which is supposed to be "international".

In 2006, cars that competed include the Seat Leon, Chevrolet Lacetti, Alpha Romeo 156, Honda Accord Euro R, and the BMW 320si. All the cars have in-line 4 cylinder engines, making 260-276HP, and all are front wheel drive, except for the BMW 320si. BMW has done well, winning the last 2 titles in 2005 and 2006.

However, it seems to me that the WTCC cars are "lower" in level (HP, speed, performance in general) compared to the DTM series, which use V8 engines and about 470HP. There is nothing wrong with that, but I can't help but think that the competition is not the greatest in the WTCC. The cars are indeed much more closely related mechanically to cars on the street (in the DTM cars, the only thing that is common with the A4 and C-class is the sillouhette and roof of the car).

Here is my hypothesis as to why BMW does not participate in DTM: BMW has nothing to gain and a lot to lose. One of the reasons for manufacturers to enter motorsports is marketing and promotion of a "sporty image". BMW already is dominant with their 3 series compared to the C-class and A4. If they enter DTM with a race car with a 3 series sillouhette, it is likely they will NOT win immediately, meaning they will just lose face as people will witness a 3 series race car lose to either a C-class or A4 race car. (I recognize that these DTM race cars have little in common with their road cars other than the sillouhette). So far MB has been dominant in DTM, winning many championships.

It's really too bad, because BMW, Audi, and MB will battle it out in the real world with performance cars like the V8 M3, V8 RS4, and V8 C-AMG cars. I think the DTM racing series would be more interesting to potential customers/owners of these cars than the 4 bangers and mostly FWD cars in the WTCC.

Another impression I get is that DTM is far more popular than WTCC in its current form.

 

[Habitual Speeder]

Well, I can see from BMW's Motorsports website that BMW officially participates in 3 racing series: F1, WTCC, and Formula BMW.

I learned quite a bit from the WTCC website, as I was not aware of its existence. Basically, it is a FIA endorsed touring car series, which is supposed to be "international".

In 2006, cars that competed include the Seat Leon, Chevrolet Lacetti, Alpha Romeo 156, Honda Accord Euro R, and the BMW 320si. All the cars have in-line 4 cylinder engines, making 260-276HP, and all are front wheel drive, except for the BMW 320si. BMW has done well, winning the last 2 titles in 2005 and 2006.

However, it seems to me that the WTCC cars are "lower" in level (HP, speed, performance in general) compared to the DTM series, which use V8 engines and about 470HP. There is nothing wrong with that, but I can't help but think that the competition is not the greatest in the WTCC. The cars are indeed much more closely related mechanically to cars on the street (in the DTM cars, the only thing that is common with the A4 and C-class is the sillouhette and roof of the car).

Here is my hypothesis as to why BMW does not participate in DTM: BMW has nothing to gain and a lot to lose. One of the reasons for manufacturers to enter motorsports is marketing and promotion of a "sporty image". BMW already is dominant with their 3 series compared to the C-class and A4. If they enter DTM with a race car with a 3 series sillouhette, it is likely they will NOT win immediately, meaning they will just lose face as people will witness a 3 series race car lose to either a C-class or A4 race car. (I recognize that these DTM race cars have little in common with their road cars other than the sillouhette). So far MB has been dominant in DTM, winning many championships.

It's really too bad, because BMW, Audi, and MB will battle it out in the real world with performance cars like the V8 M3, V8 RS4, and V8 C-AMG cars. I think the DTM racing series would be more interesting to potential customers/owners of these cars than the 4 bangers and mostly FWD cars in the WTCC.

Another impression I get is that DTM is far more popular than WTCC in its current form.

I'm not sure why folks think a racing series can only be exciting if the cars have huge engines. I love watching the SPEED World Challenge races live (which are similar to the WTCC) & the displacement can't be any higher than 2.5L in the Touring class (the GT class allows for larger engines). I've had the opportunity to see quite a few races at Mosport (for the ALMS weekend) & I find the SPEED WC races to be some of the most exciting of the weekend.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

Well, I can see from BMW's Motorsports website that BMW officially participates in 3 racing series: F1, WTCC, and Formula BMW.

I learned quite a bit from the WTCC website, as I was not aware of its existence. Basically, it is a FIA endorsed touring car series, which is supposed to be "international".

It is international. It and its predecesor(s) the ETCC were always international.

In 2006, cars that competed include the Seat Leon, Chevrolet Lacetti, Alpha Romeo 156, Honda Accord Euro R, and the BMW 320si. All the cars have in-line 4 cylinder engines, making 260-276HP, and all are front wheel drive, except for the BMW 320si.

True, but the old ETCC had every type of engine and car posible.
The Ford Mustang Boss had 420 HP, the DeTomasso Pantera ~500 HP, the Chevrolet Camaro 585 HP.
But a 210 HP BMW 2002 TI or Porsche 911S could stand up and also defeat these cars.
This eventually meant spiraling costs and with national touring competition rising the old ETCC died.

It had boring moments like the second half of the 70s when the CSL would destroy the opposition from Ford, MB, Porsche and Jaguar, but also terific epic battles like BMW vs. Porsche, Ford vs. BMW, BMW vs. JAguar.

BMW has done well, winning the last 2 titles in 2005 and 2006.

They also won the WTCC of 1987, and more ETCC titles then all the other german manufacturers combined (every german manufacturer participated in the old ETCC in one way or another).

However, it seems to me that the WTCC cars are "lower" in level (HP, speed, performance in general) compared to the DTM series, which use V8 engines and about 470HP.

True, as mentioned to control costs.

There is nothing wrong with that, but I can't help but think that the competition is not the greatest in the WTCC.

On the contrary. There were ~10 drivers who fought for the title in 2006.
The result was decided in the last race were A. Priaulx WON BY JUST 1 POINT.
Also, BMW, Seat, Alfa and Chevrolet all won races.

Here is my hypothesis as to why BMW does not participate in DTM: BMW has nothing to gain and a lot to lose. One of the reasons for manufacturers to enter motorsports is marketing and promotion of a "sporty image". BMW already is dominant with their 3 series compared to the C-class and A4. If they enter DTM with a race car with a 3 series sillouhette, it is likely they will NOT win immediately, meaning they will just lose face as people will witness a 3 series race car lose to either a C-class or A4 race car. (I recognize that these DTM race cars have little in common with their road cars other than the sillouhette). So far MB has been dominant in DTM, winning many championships.

We could say that's exactly why MB and Audi don't participate in the WTCC.



It's really too bad, because BMW, Audi, and MB will battle it out in the real world with performance cars like the V8 M3, V8 RS4, and V8 C-AMG cars. I think the DTM racing series would be more interesting to potential customers/owners of these cars than the 4 bangers and mostly FWD cars in the WTCC. [/quote]


The WTCC cars are still race cars who would beat the V8 M3, V8 RS4 and V8 C-AMG on just about every racetrack.

Another impression I get is that DTM is far more popular than WTCC in its current form.

I don't know about audience figures.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

I'm not sure why folks think a racing series can only be exciting if the cars have huge engines. I love watching the SPEED World Challenge races live (which are similar to the WTCC) & the displacement can't be any higher than 2.5L in the Touring class (the GT class allows for larger engines). I've had the opportunity to see quite a few races at Mosport (for the ALMS weekend) & I find the SPEED WC races to be some of the most exciting of the weekend.

It's NOT all about engine displacement. Rather, I think it is about power and performance of the cars. Why do you think F1 is more popular than other lower end open car series like Formula 3, etc, etc?. It's not because of engine size. There is something about the highest performance possible which can be enticing for fans. I'm not saying there can't be competition if you race slower cars, but I think it is fair to say that most people are usually drawn to the racing series that has the highest possible performance. And the racing series which has the higher performing cars usually are more popular and lure the more talented driveres, respect, and money for sponsorship.

And as a touring car series, I think current DTM fulfills the high performance criteria better than the current WTCC. Many people here laugh at high performance FWD road cars, so I wonder what they think of FWD racing cars in competition with RWD cars from BMW.

I don't doubt the old ETCC was great in its prime, but the current WTCC seems quite watered down. Just my impression.

Both the DTM and WTCC claim their series are "international" even though both series have most of the races in Europe.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

We could say that's exactly why MB and Audi don't participate in the WTCC.


The WTCC cars are still race cars who would beat the V8 M3, V8 RS4 and V8 C-AMG on just about every racetrack.

I don't quite agree with you about reasons why MB and Audi don't partipate in WTCC. Unlike BMW, they have less to lose even if they don't win in a direct competition with BMW's 3 series race car. If they win, they can only gain. Whereas BMW won't gain that much by competing as the 3 series is winning the battle against the C-class and A4 anyways. If a BMW 3 series race car loses in a head to head battle with a C-class or A4 race car, BMW's sporty appeal and emphasis for consumers may take a hit.

I'm fully aware that the WTCC race cars will still kick any road car's butt, but that's not the point here. The cars that the 320si competes against in the WTCC do not really represent the 3 series' main competition in terms of road cars, therefore diluting the positive effect (from a consumer's point of view) of winning in that series. Again, this is my opinion only.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

It's NOT all about engine displacement. Rather, I think it is about power and performance of the cars. Why do you think F1 is more popular than other lower end open car series like Formula 3, etc, etc?. It's not because of engine size. There is something about the highest performance possible which can be enticing for fans. I'm not saying there can't be competition if you race slower cars, but I think it is fair to say that most people are usually drawn to the racing series that has the highest possible performance. And the racing series which has the higher performing cars usually are more popular and lure the more talented driveres, respect, and money for sponsorship.

True and false.
F1 is the most popular and it's high HP motor sport.
WRC is second most popular, 1/4 F1 audience, but it's no high HP motor sport.
WTCC also has its popularity, not high HP motor sport either.

And as a touring car series, I think current DTM fulfills the high performance criteria better than the current WTCC. Many people here laugh at high performance FWD road cars, so I wonder what they think of FWD racing cars in competition with RWD cars from BMW.

Curent DTM fullfills rather racing Grand Touring standards more than Touring ones (I belive SuperTouring is the name).
In the old ETCC days, next to a Camaro you could see a Mini Cooper S too. And the Mini was likely to achieve a better result due to the reliability problems of the muscle cars.
In Europe we don't laugh at FWDs, tough we would prefer RWD or AWD.

I don't doubt the old ETCC was great in its prime, but the current WTCC seems quite watered down. Just my impression.

Waterdowned I agree. But the batles between the relatively wimpy 2002, 911S, Afla GTV were a lot more exciting, even epic, than the boring domination of the muscular CSL with its more then twice the HP compared to the first mentioned.
Today's WTCC is quite exciting compared to the second half of the 70s ETCC dubed "the boring years" aka CSL years.

Both the DTM and WTCC claim their series are "international" even though both series have most of the races in Europe.

International means involving more than one nation, and Europe IS NOT a nation it's a continent, while the EU is a political-economical construction acting sometimes in certain aspects as a nation, but it's not a nation either.
The WTCC also has races outside Europe.

 

[ADGvast]

I don't doubt the old ETCC was great in its prime, but the current WTCC seems quite watered down. Just my impression.

Agree, even the BTCC as well, it was great in around 10years ago as i remember.... at that moment, different countries had different great 2.0L series, like ATCC, JTCC, BTCC, ITCC, etc..... and Audi, BMW, Volvo, Honda.... were racing together, but now the WTCC is a bit down.... I don't like the rule of WTCC as well, the racers need to swap the orders between the 1st race and the 2rd race (i think is the winner in the 1st race will start at the sixth place and so on, the sixth faster will become in the front role, something like that...)

Both the DTM and WTCC claim their series are "international" even though both series have most of the races in Europe.

WTCC is more international..... like in Asia, not much news on the DTM, but do have news on WTCC. To me, the outlook of a DTM car doesn't match as a production car, it seemed they are totally a different car and is desgined for racing only, the body kits are just too much....

 

[Zafiro]

Many people here laugh at high performance FWD road cars.

Now I have to step in.
My question for them, have they ever tried a powerful FWD car?

Take the new Golf GTI or Civic Type R, both FWD and 200hp, there is absolutely no wrong with these cars, they work perfect even with FWD. But of course there are exceptions, I drove the Opel Astra OPC; Turbo, 240hp and FWD. The car was a disaster, too much power for the car and the turbo was like the old days, we are talking real ketchup effect.
I think it all depend on chassi and the character of the engine if power and FWD are working together.

IMO more than 300hp in a FWD car is no good but below 300hp there is no wrong with FWD.

So having FWD in a racing car, I have no problem with that either.