War in Iran?

[SDNR]

........I think that Nuclear weapons are useful for preventing war! Think back to the cold war, where Russia and America both had Nuclear weapons. I know America had the weapons before Russia but once they both had weapons it prevented war between the two nations, because both nations very both so scared of each other.

I covered this in my previous post - this concept you speak of here, with regard to nuclear weapons, is completely flawed; if nuclear weapons were merely a "deterrence", then why did the US and the USSR continue to produce more and more of them, even when they already had enough to destroy the world several hundred times over?

Think the Cuban missiles crisis, bring the two nations closest together to having a nuclear war in the whole of the cold war, but Russia didn't attack because America had nuclear weapons in Turkey which could easily strike Moscow!

That may be so ...the Russians may not have been crazy enough to use their nukes ......but Fidel Castro was certainly willing to do so ......the USSR was helping Castro by just giving the US a scare (it thought)....Castro on the other hand was quite keen to attack the US ..........thank god the Soviets were in charge, otherwise Castro almost certainly would have started a nuclear war.

I think that people are making a too big a deal out of Iraq, of course people would normally fight against people who were invading their country, and they don't know how to live under a democracy. It takes time to form a country!

This point irritates me BMW_Dude, most Iraqis are not fighting "the inavaders" - most Iraqis are delighted with their democracy, it is Radical Islamists, many of whome are not even Iraqi, who are waging these continued attacks in Iraq -- .....and most importantly the are not fighting for Iraq or the Iraqi people (they couldn't care less if they kill American Soldiers or a bus-load of school girls), they are fighting for Radical Islam - they desire to take control and install Sharia law in Iraq.

 

[wltsm]

I understand that it's not all Iraqis that are putting up the fights, only a very small minority, with support from people from other countires , eg Iran. I think this is the biggest thing the Americans face, they aren't fighting an ordinary war here, the enermy doesn't care who it kills, as long as it get itself heard!

 

[SDNR]

Exactly BMW_Dude, but there is no doubt that there is growing dissatisfaction with the situation from ordinary Iraqis ......most just want the western allies to just leave so that things can "return to normal", unfortunately that clearly would not happen -- Sunnis and Shi'as are already attacking each other.

 

[wltsm]

I think we could have a civil war on our hands, I just hope things don't get out of hand and Iraq doesn't turn into another Vietnam!

 

[Kleemann_SL]

Radical Islam.

These words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DAMN Im gonna break my keyboard.
Sorry but I have to say one thing: thats a f*cking BS. There is no radical or light or medium or any f*cking type of Islam, you are a muslim or not thats it!!

There is nothing better now in Iraq, dont lie to yourselfs. That f*cking bastard of a bush has comed in Iraq and has made everything even more terrible! I dont trust any sh*t on the media, they are subjective. Maybe saddam was a bastard but so is bush.

What democracy???? what freedom??? Do you really believe that bush cares about that. Do you really believe that he is seeking terrorists on the mountains of Afghanistan, bringing democracy to Iraq, wanna destroy Iran. That p*nk*ssm*therf*cker bush is now threating Syria. And the story now is that Syria is helping terrorists. Damn man, how can you guys believe so easly in such story's. Dont be a sheep, dont believe anything what you see on tv.

They have a project about the Middle-East.
And they are using my on country with that, Turkey.
These events are very complicated for us, its not bringing democracy or finding terrorists what its all about for the guys like Bush!

I dont really know it perfectly but Im sure they will bring to Iraq, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, later Turkey and some others!!!!!, their own men and presidents.

Many ppl knows that the terrible event in 11/9, is not happened by terrorists, it is even proved! But some ppl just dont want to believe it, maybe they are scared about the truth, or maybe lazy to listen and to think again....

Im really tired about that democracy thing and terrorists.... pfff. I think Im a terrorist if you ask it bush.


And one thing, Im affraid for a big war, and Im not talking BS. Every big change in the world has begun with a big war. After the USA attacks Syria, I think than there will break out a big war, cause if not, (not Iraq or Iran or anyone else but) the US-Army will be out of control.
Damn man that bush is a war-freak the biggest terrorist.
Some ppl say that its very normal that children die by accident. You may believe and lie to yourself, but I dont think its a war when they find 7 Iraqian children in a house shot in the head, all of them! It is terrorism!
Offcourse the American media will never show some events like that, are they?

 

[LaArtist]

well all i can say to the post above is that i also belive that the fool bush is the biggest terrorist..

 

[SDNR]

Calm down Kleemann - you are being hysterical ....I will answer your post.

These words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DAMN Im gonna break my keyboard.
Sorry but I have to say one thing: thats a f*cking BS. There is no radical or light or medium or any f*cking type of Islam, you are a muslim or not thats it!!

Firstly Kleemann, I have been very careful to distinguish Muslims from "Islamists" - how interesting that you say there is no radical Islam - are you suggesting that Osama Bin Laden is not a radical Islamist? -- are you telling me that when President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says that the Hidden Amam has chosen him to provoke a war against the west, or when he denies the Jewish Holocaust, or when he says he wants to push Israel into the sea ....that radical Islam does not exist? -- well then Kleemann, maybe you should tell that to the families of the victims of September 11 and all the other terror attacks carried out in the name of Allah.

I am not stupid Kleemann, I know most Muslims are peaceful - but you have to wake up to the reality that your religion is being hijacked by extremists.

There is nothing better now in Iraq, dont lie to yourselfs. That f*cking bastard of a bush has comed in Iraq and has made everything even more terrible! I dont trust any sh*t on the media, they are subjective. Maybe saddam was a bastard but so is bush. What democracy???? what freedom??? Do you really believe that bush cares about that. Do you really believe that he is seeking terrorists on the mountains of Afghanistan, bringing democracy to Iraq, wanna destroy Iran. That p*nk*ssm*therf*cker bush is now threating Syria.

Fine use of the English language there Kleemann -- you hatred for Bush seems to be bordering on obsession. Of course I don't think the situation in Iraq is better .....I never said invading Iraq was a good idea.....but it is done now .......and the reality of the situation is that if the US and it's Allies were not there, the entire country would succom to extremists who hate the west and want to kill all infidels. Kleemann, this is absolute fact ..these people have stated this over and over again.

Many ppl knows that the terrible event in 11/9, is not happened by terrorists, it is even proved! But some ppl just dont want to believe it, maybe they are scared about the truth, or maybe lazy to listen and to think again....

This is outrageous rubbish Kleemann -- your views are quite extreme actually, I seriously suggest you check the facts on this .....Al Queda have proudly admitted their responsibility for 911 -- is that a conspiracy too?

 

[LaArtist]

about that 9/11 being a terrorist attack or not..many questions are unanswerd.. and i dont know why there arent any answers..
so for now i dont know what to belive..

 

[SDNR]

about that 9/11 being a terrorist attack or not..many questions are unanswerd.. and i dont know why there arent any answers..
so for now i dont know what to belive..

I most certainly agree with you Artist.

I do not believe the Americans carried out the attacks on their own soil....however, I do not find it inconceivable that they knew the attacks were planned ...and let them happen so that Bush could start the "War On Terror".

I know most Muslims say they do not condone terrorism .......but Muslims I have spoken to still say America got what it deserved on September 11 ....... I know several members of this forum hold that veiw; that in itself is a disturbing and threatening attitude to most westerners -- we seldon hear condemnation for Al Queda or Osama Bin Laden coming from the western Muslim community ....why is that?

 

[LaArtist]

i dont know why its like that.. but personally i dont like anyone who does wrong in the name of god..

that goes for bush to who really belives that he is on a mission from god..

such ppl are either very naive or really dont belive in god.. a shiver runns down my spine when i think if i will be able to use gods name to justify a horrible action from my side..

 

[SDNR]

i dont know why its like that.. but personally i dont like anyone who does wrong in the name of god..

that goes for bush to who really belives that he is on a mission from god..

..Totally -- that is one of the scariest things about Bush.

 

[LaArtist]

yep .. but no one can blame him.. its in the human nature to defend the top spot.. and when you are there you do anything to keep it ..including god is not a thing.. cause religion leaves extreme space to interprete ( spelling??)..
a person who really belives in his cause could easily make him self belive that god wants me to do this.. and if you can convice yourself.. then its easier to convince others..

but in these situations ppl need to think out of the box.. and really think, is what im doing justifyible through religon??

Only the ones that can think outside the box are the great leaders imo..

PS
This kind of behaviour can be seen everywhere from terrorists to leaders of countrys and even leaders of religous movements..

 

[Kleemann_SL]

Firstly Kleemann, I have been very careful to distinguish Muslims from "Islamists" - how interesting that you say there is no radical Islam - are you suggesting that Osama Bin Laden is not a radical Islamist? -- are you telling me that when President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says that the Hidden Amam has chosen him to provoke a war against the west, or when he denies the Jewish Holocaust, or when he says he wants to push Israel into the sea ....that radical Islam does not exist? -- well then Kleemann, maybe you should tell that to the families of the victims of September 11 and all the other terror attacks carried out in the name of Ala.

And I said that islamists and muslims are not something different. I dont even believe that Osama Bin Laden is a true muslim. The USA with his extraordinary technology, couldnt even find that piece of sh*t! WHY!! Because they r not able to do that? No, because they dont need, they just need somebody who can take the guilt for itself. And they have found Osama. That simple is it. The USA have such a perfect technology, that they can even hear you with the satelite, what you r speaking. Do you really believe that they cant find them. Al-Qaida???? Ive never seen or heard that Al-Qaida has done a good positive thing for the muslims. For bush and Israel, there must be an Al-Qaida. So they can point their f*cking fingers and say "thats the badguy" like Tony Montana said! Al Qaida is the part of the game. If there is a terrorist attack, they find a man with a name like Mahmud or Mustafa or Muhammad, and they say that he is from Al-Qaida. And than we never hear anything from them anymore. Whats happening?????

And about president Mahmoud, if the USA and Israel would say that my country is terrorist and want to invade me, I would be more angry than president Mahmoud and would invade first! If Israel and the USA would shut up and sit on their places, Iran wouldnt be dangerous.

And another proof that you know nothing about Islam, a muslim doesnt kill, doesnt do any terrorist attack in name of Allah. Cause than he deserves the hell, and a muslims fears Allah for doing such things.

The families of the victims of 11/9 should go to bush and solve their problems with that p*nk. Cause he knew about that and with that tech, they should easly take those planes down, "like they did with the one that was going to the white house" or something, .... how occasional...

And Roberto, No there is no radical islam, you are a muslim or not, thats what counts in Islam. A muslim is peacefull, a muslim is mercyfull, and not like those british/american soldiers in Iraq. You ve seen what they did with the Iraqi boys behind the walls, dont you?

A muslim cant be a terrorist, if he claims so.... he aint a muslim anymore. They just want to make the name of Islam dirty.

An old women was scared from me, because Im a muslim!!! Do you know how that feels??? I was shocked. how do you expect from me not to be angry?!!

I am not stupid Kleemann, I know most Muslims are peaceful - but you have to wake up to the reality that your religion is being hijacked by extremists.

No, my beautifull, fast growing, the latest and the most true (IMO) religion Islam, is hijacked by the "real" terrorists, like bush, and ppl who claim to be muslims!

Fine use of the English language there Kleemann -- you hatred for Bush seems to be bordering on obsession. Of course I don't think the situation in Iraq is better .....I never said invading Iraq was a good idea.....but it is done now .......and the reality of the situation is that if the US and it's Allies were not there, the entire country would succom to extremists who hate the west and want to kill all infidels. Kleemann, this is absolute fact ..these people have stated this over and over again.

Have you been there before the war??? Those ppl dint even knew the west.
But for bush and his company, there must be USA-haters there, so he could attack. YES, also a piece of the game.

This is outrageous rubbish Kleemann -- your views are quite extreme actually, I seriously suggest you check the facts on this .....Al Queda have proudly admitted their responsibility for 911 -- is that a conspiracy too?

I writed about Al-Qaida.... so....

 

[LaArtist]

well the thing kleemann says is true.. a person killing or doing wrong in gods name is not a muslim.. technically..
but then again who can stop him from sayin that he is..
its a real problem for muslims living in foreign countrys today.. and dont expect it to get any easier..

 

[SDNR]

And another proof that you know nothing about Islam, a muslim doesnt kill, doesnt do any terrorist attack in name of Allah. Cause than he deserves the hell, and a muslims fears Allah for doing such things...............

......And Roberto, No there is no radical islam, you are a muslim or not, thats what counts in Islam. A muslim is peacefull, a muslim is mercyfull, and not like those british/american soldiers in Iraq. You ve seen what they did with the Iraqi boys behind the walls, dont you?

A muslim cant be a terrorist, if he claims so.... he aint a muslim anymore. They just want to make the name of Islam dirty.

Kleemann .....you are correct, I am no expert on Islam, but I know that Muslims, like most other people, are peaceful.

I understand that the term "Radical Islam" is messy -- it is a western term used in reference to groups of politicized extremists who manipulate their followers with a perverted form of Islam.

Every religion in the world has small groups of crazy people who justify their actions with distorted religious rhetoric. There are Right-wing Jewish groups who justify their extreme beliefs with a twisted form of Judaism. There are many examples of extremist Christians, including some who carry out terrorist action in the name of Christ. There are even radical Buddhists who set fire to themselves, it is no different to extreme individuals carrying out terrorist activity in the name of Allah -- they may not be real Muslims to you or most other Muslims, but they do believe they are part of a global Jihad, a clash of civilizations.

 

[Snake Vargas]

And a real problem is that other people see them all as what they claim to be, whether Christian, Muslim, or otherwise. It gives everyone a bad name, but that's just how it is.

And another proof that you know nothing about Islam, a muslim doesnt kill, doesnt do any terrorist attack in name of Allah. Cause than he deserves the hell, and a muslims fears Allah for doing such things.

The families of the victims of 11/9 should go to bush and solve their problems with that p*nk. Cause he knew about that and with that tech, they should easly take those planes down, "like they did with the one that was going to the white house" or something, .... how occasional...

And Roberto, No there is no radical islam, you are a muslim or not, thats what counts in Islam. A muslim is peacefull, a muslim is mercyfull, and not like those british/american soldiers in Iraq. You ve seen what they did with the Iraqi boys behind the walls, dont you?

Anyhow, so does that mean that every soldier (in Iraq or otherwise) who has killed, is not a Muslim? I suppose that selective sample of "british/american soldiers in Iraq" makes it hard to defend that they don't kill anyone. It then really makes it easy to make out the British and Americans as killers and Muslims as peaceful, doesn't it? Still, you've ignored the rest of the non-killing British and American population, and you've discounted any Iraqi soldier who kills as not a Muslim, even though they would claim to be.

It's not a major point, but I don't think that they would take kindly to your saying that a true Muslim doesn't kill, and they would probably oppose you. You might allow killing in self defense or some such, but it's not quite like that.

On the other hand, I don't believe religion or democracy has much to do with Iraq, right now, at all. It was never a stable country, and now with the power vacuum left in Saddam's absence, sectarian and tribal violence takes over. It's got little to do with the foreigners, now. The Iraqis are having plenty to do just killing each other.

Kleemann_SL, you have some pretty extreme views, and I doubt that any of my arguing will change that. If you want to believe that Al Qaeda is a fictional entity made up as a scapegoat or otherwise, then I don't think there's anything that I can do to persuade you otherwise, beyond saying that your information and propaganda from your media is only as good as what I can get from the media saying that Al Qaeda exists and is a real entity.

Your word against mine.

 

[LaArtist]

Snake.. a muslim cant twist the laws of the religon.. and in mine and most muslims eyes.. terrorist attacks and such in gods name may in most cases (not palestina) be a twist of the muslim laws..

BUT ( and this is a big one) if some other fools come to your country and kill you and try to take over.. you have the right to defend it with every thing you got.. if you got guns use them.. if not use rocks..
Islam does not stop one from defending himself when someone attacks his country.. ( its not like buddhism with 0 violence)...

Islam is just like the 2 other monoteistic religons.. they all have history of violence .. and in fact christianity has the most violent history..

 

[Kleemann_SL]

Anyhow, so does that mean that every soldier (in Iraq or otherwise) who has killed, is not a Muslim? I suppose that selective sample of "british/american soldiers in Iraq" makes it hard to defend that they don't kill anyone. It then really makes it easy to make out the British and Americans as killers and Muslims as peaceful, doesn't it? Still, you've ignored the rest of the non-killing British and American population, and you've discounted any Iraqi soldier who kills as not a Muslim, even though they would claim to be.

Damn man Thats totally anything else man, what r you talking about.
A soldier who defends his own country, how can he be a terrorist. I was talking about terrorists who kill unarmed ppl. Dont you understand? Terrorist attacks you know?

Dont get me wrong, there are american soldiers who doesnt even want to fight. Do you know how many american soldiers suicided there in Iraq? They didnt knew things were going to be this bad. I was talking about the soldiers who kill unarmed ppl. Havent you seen those soldiers in prisons, what they do?

 

[Snake Vargas]

Yeah, well, I wanted to get your ideas on what constitutes killing. More so, I didn't mention terrorism anywhere in my post - I didn't say that people defending their country were terrorists. I just wanted to know whether your idea that Muslims shouldn't kill extends that far, and so you say it doesn't apply there.

Artist - so your claims that Christianity has the most violent history, well, like Kleemann's argument that Muslims who kill are only claiming to be Muslims, perhaps that can also apply to those who invaded others, claiming to be Christians. I can say that the Bible does include God telling his people to clear out certain lands so that they could live there, but I don't think you can necessarily, definitively say that Christianity has the most violent history without some sort of proof.

I've heard plenty of stories about what American or otherwise soldiers do with enemies they've captured. There might be conventions or not, but that doesn't stop human nature taking over. Hatred is a powerful emotion, and doesn't give up just because of conventions or because the enemies are powerless in captivity.

However, keep in mind that if the positions were reversed and the American was in captivity, then I am certain we would be hearing of atrocities committed by Iraqis or whoever. Saddam and his regime did enough against their own people, let alone foreign soldiers. Terrorists (and yes, now I use that term) claiming to be Muslims kidnapped journalists and foreign aid workers in Iraq, people who were trying to help, and beheaded them. Sure, you say that they thus might not be classified as Muslims, but that's not my point. My point is that, regardless of colour, country or religion, people have the ability to do evil to others.

 

[LaArtist]

for sure i agree with you..
and i guess you got me wrong.. i ment that christianity has alot of violance in its history.. and by no means am i saying that christianity is pro violence..
far from it actually..
but the point i was trying to make is that the 3 monoteistic religons are not extremely anti violence like perhaps hindu and buddhism..