BMW 3-Series Still Top Dog despite Strong Competition

[Human]

I think it is hard to judge what "handling" is. For example, the current E92 M3 can arguably be said to be "softer" than the C63 right? Yet on a track, or where ever, the E92 is still the better handling car despite the "softness".
With the E vs 5 thing, i'm not sure, i haven't had a chance to get a ride in both but soft/comfort doesn't mean worse handling, it might just give an apparent feeling that it is less sportier while actually a more superior handling package.
It's hard to compare across generations, i mean, the E46 is ultra damn soft compared to anything now, like a standard E87 feels 10 times stiffer.
But I totally agree that regardless, the 3series should not be on the too soft side, it doesn't need to be, it really needs to handle better and give an apparent feeling that it handles better, and make the car lighter please.

Ye, I agree it would definitely be more comfortable although I will disagree that the next 3er would be really less sporty - maybe more 'balanced' i.e. W204 C-class or the older E46

Striking a balance between the E46 & E90 in ride and handling + (BMW already uses light suspension materials, good for unsprung mass) now just a lighter car/body as you said. Then we will have a near perfect new 3er IMO

And nobody is concerned about the steering - simply because BMW always manages to outshine the competition in getting the steering gear & ratio + feedback & precision just perfect!

 

[EnI]

Audi ... Mind that in many markets the low-end models are best sellers. Especially the ones with diesel engines. And FWD in Audi case. And FWD platform has quite some advantages over RWD platform: better traction on ice & slipper conditions, less space consuming (therefore more space in cabin & trunk), less weight. While RWD brings better performance , handling, even weight distribution.

But ... In the entry segments VAST MAJORITY of customers prefers more space & less demanding drive over performance. Especially in the case of hatchbacks, wagons & compact sedans. Not to mention that FWD cars are usually cheaper compared to RWD models.

Audi still perceived as more all-round cars (especially in Europe) compared to BMW. Quite some customers are still scared of RWD, preferring FWD. When it comes to AWD the Audi quattro is still the synonym for best AWD in segment (vs direct rivals).

And when picked as family car BMW is less preferred due to high & spce-consuming central tunnel - especially in the back, making the 3rd (central) seat provisional only, not quite usable.

So, Audi still has quite some advantage over BMW (and MB as well) when it comes to entry or low-end models. And that's the key point of Audi's sales success (especially in Europe). And the Chinese market where Audi still leads mainly due to larger dealership network & larger local production facilities ...

 

[bum-man]

And nobody is concerned about the steering - simply because BMW always manages to outshine the competition in getting the steering gear & ratio + feedback & precision just perfect!

^ Surprisingly BMW electric steering has been much criticized for the directness and feel. A lot of auto Journals out there have been writing this and most articles have been telling that the competition are offering better steering.

 

[ACE]

In the end, all manufacturers strive for the best possible ride vs. handling trade-off. This is the holy grail of suspension tuning - to achieve a comprise between two diametrically opposed criteria.

You can have both ride quality and handling; that is why Electronic Damper Control was invented. I will never buy another car without this option especially since I have an uncontrollable desire to tick the option for the largest wheels available.

 

[EnI]

^ Surprisingly BMW electric steering has been much criticized for the directness and feel. A lot of auto Journals out there have been writing this and most articles have been telling that the competition are offering better steering.

IMO the steering is sharp & precise, yet it lacks the road feedback, and it feels a bit superficial - compared to the previous more mechanical steering systems. But when you used to it, it's great. As said: it's precise & sharp. Especially at higher speeds. Yet the overall sensation is different then the one of mechanical steering. Worse? Better? I would just say different. It's definitely not numb & unresponsive, no way. When you master it, the drive is quite a pleasure.

But it's sure drivers who are accustomed to mechanical systems will have some troubles in the beginning.

I guess some manufacturers still left some "mechanical"-like sensation in the new systems as well. But that doesn't make the steering any better. It's more about subjective perception ...

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

Striking a balance between the E46 & E90 in ride and handling + (BMW already uses light suspension materials, good for unsprung mass) now just a lighter car/body as you said. Then we will have a near perfect new 3er IMO

And nobody is concerned about the steering - simply because BMW always manages to outshine the competition in getting the steering gear & ratio + feedback & precision just perfect!

I've seen more cristisim about BMW's steering of late and more praise about MB's.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

In my view BMW especially with the 3 er needs to be carefull they dont go toomuch down the comfort road ath teh expense off the normal BMW style driving this i think could be a big mistake..if you read reviews it seems the A6 seems to be a better handler in some reviews then the 5 dare i say one off my friends who drove my E350cdi felt it handles better then the new 5...i think in terms off the market with teh 5 or 7 they may get away with that to a certain extent because its more a excluse class but the 3 is more lower entry car where i think a lot off teh market buy a 3 because its the sportiest. already know a few friends and family who would never have bought a Merc because they felt it was for the older folks but with the W204 they have purchased the W204 C class and love the car i know they wont go back to a 3 in a hurry unless merc messes up the next C which i doubt...

I really feel here in SA the W204 has been a HUGE and i mean a HUGE succes...

You're friend is not alone. They've been reveiws, which in their oppinion, suggest the standard suspension set up the 5 is neither superior to the E in ride or handling and you need to option up the 5 to make it handle like it should.

During the 5 day Wheels Car of the year testing process of the entire 5-series range, they came to the conclusion that the lower 5 end models did not match the E in ride and were also left wanting in handling. It seems sheer driving pleasure is now optional.

The w204 seems to have struct the same chord in SA as it has here in Oz.

 

[mini_cooper4]

Don't bother, if he's salesman you're going to get a load of bs. When a person states that they can't see why you would buy this over that then they're mind is made up. You're wasting your time HoH.


M

OMG guys check out the smilies at the end of my post...
Do you really think I was serious.
Ofcourse I think the 3er is better in almost everything than the other two but I could also see the reason why people are buying C and A4.
As a lot of people stated the 3er is a reliable and efficient car.
The sportiness is only a +
I have a lot of clients that are driving their 3ers slower than I'm waking up... but they are pleased with what the car has to offer beyond spotiness.

 

[Giannis]

It seems sheer driving pleasure is now optional.

The question is, why?

Does BMW really need to milk the hell out of the cow, or are the people that buy BMWs, very very different than the folks from 5 years ago?

 

[Sunny]

The question is, why?

Does BMW really need to milk the hell out of the cow, or are the people that buy BMWs, very very different than the folks from 5 years ago?

I don't know bout 5, but definitely from 10 years ago. If any of you guys been to Bay area, 3 series is like Camry here, every tom and his hairy dick has one. Out of my 8 immediate neighbors, 5 households have/had a 3er (including my M3 and another E46 M3 convertible). None of them besides me is into cars. I seriously doubt they know what an I6 or LSD is. Funny thing is, there is a chick with Mini cooper who is more into cars than all the rest. And the guy with the M3 convertible just sold his and got an E class cause "the ride is too harsh and he is not getting any younger". People just want to be seen driving something with sporty image but not actually put up with inconveniences of actually owning one.

 

[Merc1]

Same way in North Dallas....3-Series, E-Classes and even S550s everywhere. The new 5-Series is multiplying daily. The only cars I haven't seen on the road here are the Veryron and SLR. I've seen everything else on the road here.


M

 

[K-A]

Same way in North Dallas....3-Series, E-Classes and even S550s everywhere. The new 5-Series is multiplying daily. The only cars I haven't seen on the road here are the Veryron and SLR. I've seen everything else on the road here.


M

Same here. 3-Series' are so common it's sickening, it almost seems like when someone has $30-$40K to spend on a car, they're given a 3-Series.

C's, E's, and S's are everywhere, and the new 5'ers are showing up more and more, but far from "everywhere" yet.

What recession??!!

 

[donkeykong]

^It's the same here on South Beach. I'll be damned if I don't see 20 3er park around my neighborhood.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

In the UK, BMW sell more 3 Series' than Ford sell Mondeos.

 

[klier]

I don't know bout 5, but definitely from 10 years ago. If any of you guys been to Bay area, 3 series is like Camry here, every tom and his hairy dick has one.

Same way in North Dallas....3-Series, E-Classes and even S550s everywhere.
M

Same here. 3-Series' are so common it's sickening

And you guys have to keep in mind:

YOU'RE ALL IN THE USA, even. Where Bimmers are actually still exclusive compared to western Europe.

Like Betty said, a Ford Mondeo sells less than a 3er, and a Ford Mondeo would cost like $15,000 in the U.S. if they sold it there.

 

[Sunny]

YOU'RE ALL IN THE USA, even. Where Bimmers are actually still exclusive compared to western Europe.

Not really Klier, at least not in big cities. But my main point was not how exclusive or not it is, it was to answer Giannis question about if there is a big difference in who buys a 3er between now and 5 years ago. I think so, before only people who genuinely wanted a sporty car and didn't mind a harsher ride or a heavier steering brought one. And it is exactly that what made a BMW popular with enthusiasts. But now every one want one just for the superficial reasons of being seen in a Bimmer - and the real unfortunate part of all this is, it is actually changing BMW as they now try and cater more to this new superficial crowd than the enthusiasts. Sigh!

I guess now you need performance parts to get what was standard before.

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[Mr. Mercedes]

Same here. 3-Series' are so common it's sickening, it almost seems like when someone has $30-$40K to spend on a car, they're given a 3-Series.

C's, E's, and S's are everywhere, and the new 5'ers are showing up more and more, but far from "everywhere" yet.

What recession??!!

BLAH! You guys just don't pay enough for your fancy cars!

Current Aussie/US exchange rate just rubs salt into the wound. lol

 

[Centurion]

The force that's pulling the sales of the 3er north is the M3 point and simple. I've driven the new S60, W204 C-Class and the IS250. Neither of them are poorly engineered cars but the 3er is simply sportier.

The M3 is a working class hero. It's the best supercar that a common man would dream of, afford and live with. Even in 2011 it's superiority in the class still persist. Those who cannot afford one will buy the second best, a 335i and oven a lower engine option depending on their wallet. Mercedes, Audi and Lexus have yet managed to develop a car that embodies the spirit of the M3.

While still playing catch up with the M3, competitors now have their hands full figuring out how to rival the 1er coupe which is the second best thing a commoner can buy after an M3.

As I see it the 3er will remain the king of the segment for the years to come, and along it the joker, the 1er coupe, will fend off any low ball attempts from rivals.

 

[K-A]

But now every one want one just for the superficial reasons of being seen in a Bimmer - and the real unfortunate part of all this is, it is actually changing BMW as they now try and cater more to this new superficial crowd than the enthusiasts. Sigh!

This is true. Considering the 3'er was always the "commoners supercar/luxury car" (good term), it now has settled into something that the average Joe/non car enthusiast wants to buy to enter into a prestigious brand, and to impress others around them, while not having exuberant amounts of money to spend. They don't know any better, so they "buy the 3-Series". This same type of buyer at a usually more mature level in life, and/or with more money to spend, who requires more luxury, will always pick an E-Class or 5-Series.

The 3'er, in all its commonness though, with being everywhere, still commands the respect of a premium car, however. And that's the key. I'm always fascinated by cars like 3's/C's/E's/5's, as they have to be designed to be seen a billion times a day, but STILL hold curb appeal and Luxury merit for 7 years at a time. That is a work of art. A bonafide Supercar is so much more simple and offers less to analyze to me, just make it look wild and unconventional and voila.

 

[mini_cooper4]

But what's the difference in price for a fully loaded 3er Perf. and a fully loaded standard 3er ?? It's huge and you better buy an M3