The new M Performance automobiles range


I don't see the big deal people are making out of this? We all know Audi has been copying MB and BMW ever since VAG decided to go 'premium'. This is just one of many examples....

See Klier, you don't help with these outlandish claims either. Fact is everyone copies others in any competitve industry. I just changed jobs and am in a new startup, I know how much I am 'inspired' by others. Fact of life. Denying Audi does it like Deckhook does, is futile. So is saying, it is something unique to Audi.
 
^ I didn't deny it and if you had bother to read my posts properly you would have realised this. What I said was to make the claim that they copied on this occasion as a 'fact' is something that Martin couldn't do. The very fact that others have been considering such a system before BMW released theirs is almost proof that sooner or later someone would be first and someone would have to follow which isn't the same thing as copying.

Unlike Klier I actually put some thought into my posts and unlike some others I don't see one brand being 'almighty' over all others.
 
Just dug up these old photos from 2007, Mercedes W211 E280 CDI with the turbo between the banks and what appears to be a reverse flow configuration.


You might have more information on this engine Wolfgang .
 
^ I didn't deny it and if you had bother to read my posts properly you would have realised this. What I said was to make the claim that they copied on this occasion as a 'fact' is something that Martin couldn't do. .

No, you go read read Martin's posts properly and you would realize that he never claimed it as a fact. He even explicitly says otherwise -

Yes I believe that. Do I know it for a fact? No.

And what he claims to be facts -
-
Fact: BMW pioneered the hot-side-inside to market. Fact: Audi followed BMW by introducing a near identical solution in complete contrast to their long-standing turbo'd Vee engine tradition three years after BMW.
- are both indisputable facts.

Unlike Klier I actually put some thought into my posts and unlike some others I don't see one brand being 'almighty' over all others.

Oh, please, cut the sanctimonious crap, Who the fcuk do you think you are bull shitting, Footie?
 
Sunny, I did read Martin's posts and my remarks refer to the original one not the tit for tat posts between us that followed.

Martinbo said:
so groundbreaking that it was soon and blatantly imitated

That wording implies that Audi deliberately copied BMW's design but this is unknown because no one here knows for sure how far along if at all Audi's 4.0TFSI was in it's development stages, that was why I felt something needed to be said. The rest of the post was spot on as far I was concerned and I commented as much. You need to get off your high horse and listen to what's being said.

Oh and btw I AM a fan of BMW with 5 cars down and a possible 6th on the way but unlike some I am not blinded by it's brilliance to the point where I cut myself and BMW blood pours from my veins, the advantage of actually owning them among many other brands gives you an unbiased perspective as to how they compare to others and there is no doubt they are a shinning star in the motoring trade but the industry is full of stars that shine equally as bright.
 
See Klier, you don't help with these outlandish claims either. Fact is everyone copies others in any competitve industry.

Another fact is that the one company does it a lot more than the other.
But you have to realize I am not trying to help anyone, and I am just saying things the way I see it.

Audi is one of the biggest copycat companies I have seen yet. And Footie is right I don't have to put a lot of thought into that. It's one of those facts of life.
 
Let's also keep in mind, that Audi looked like they were taking a different dirrection regarding forced induction when they reveals their latest 3.0T engine, which is actually supercharged!

;)

And what a stellar engine that is. Shame this engine is to be shortlived because I feel there is a very bright future for superchargers just around the corner with the introduction of variable superchargers.
 
I dont understand why we argue who is first. Someone invented the tyre before anyone else now but it's been copied by many. The engine in M5 is different from a 550i, the driving experience is different, M5 simply isnt a copied 550i with only more power.

To lighten up this thread here is a swedish M5

8a0dfddc60d2e593c8fd116aaad5990b.webp


Yummy ! :)
 
I think that some members here are confused, so I'll attempt to simplify a few things.

The facts:

The engine has to pollute less. That means that the exhaust gasses need to be "filtered" better by the catalytic converter. Fact is that the higher the temperature of the exhaust gasses is, the more effective the cat. is, because the reactions that take place there are faster and more effective, when temperature goes up. Again, that's a fact.

The problem:

The distance that the exhaust gasses need to travel from the exhaust valves to the cat. has to be minimized. And keep in mind, that a turbo needs to be fitted between the valves and the cat.

The solution:

It seems that by mounting the turbo in the V, the above described distance is minimized. That's what makes a hot-side inside configuration better than mounting the turbos outside the V.

Yet, in terms of heat in the engine room, the hot-side inside configuration is not the optimal one.

BMW's patent:

The CCM (cross-flow comprehensive manifold) is unique (and thus patented) because it distributes the pulses from the cylinders in the optimal way to the two turbos. The outcome is that each turbo has a certain, and steady frequency of pulses.

***

So, the hot-side inside configuration is one thing. BMW's CCM is one step further.

:t-cheers:
 
I feel that you're overreacting HotIce. I think many anti-BMW punters are using this new leverage of the M badge by BMW (it all came to a head here a few years back with the X5M/X6M siblings) as some kind of ordinance against the maker. It's to insinuate that the marque has losts its way and that the once pristine reputation of the M badge is somehow tarnished. I've never owned a BMW (driven dozens though) but I still reckon that their cars remain exciting for all types of consumers and that the outlook for future buyers of the brand is more promising than ever. A couple of key observations from my side:

Naturally aspirated engines - as magnificent as they are with the S65 and M156 being among my top favourites - are being consigned to niche applications vis a vis Subaru BRZ, Porsche 911, LFA, Aventador, 458, 599 etc. Market forces dictate that manufacturers require greater scope of control of engine output, delivery characteristics, fuel consumption and emissions and turbocharging affords this broader scope far better than any other type of current reciprocating engine technology.

The mystique and allure of the traditional M recipe is sustainable only to a certain extent as a result of its particularly focused nature. In being so focused the target demographic is commensurately small and thus opportunities to leverage the success of the brand - not the recipe - is significantly diminished. If you reduce your opportunities, you reduce your ability to compete and if you can't compete, well, obviously you fade away into nothingness. This is a macro-economic fact of the automotive market landscape. Don't agree? Just ask Porsche, or, name me a globally viable auto manufacturer and I'll describe ways in which they have pursued opportunities to fruition.

People with money don't buy into a tradition or an ethos. They buy what they want. If what they want happens to conform to, let's say, a traditionally sporting ethos then this is merely incidental. It is a coincidence of aligned values. Consumers who don't identify with this ethos go elsewhere and if this ethos is too specific then opportunity is reduced and potential customers will look elsewhere. Such as: people in the market for a performance SUV (as abhorrent as the concept may be) buying an ML63 AMG or Cayenne Turbo because the badge carried a stronger cachet than a hypothetical X5 xDrive4.4iS.

It is the specificity of the old, traditional M recipe that would result in diminished opportunity and yet at the same time - greater competition. Look at what Merc did with the AMG acquisition. Subtly different, yet with equal appeal in other measures; AMG, RS and (to a different extent) S cars suddenly started stomping all over M's opportunity base. That recipe needed to be broadened in scope in order to cater for a wider criteria range of consumer needs. And fast!

It's obvious that whilst BMW's M division has offered models that appeal less to traditional proponents of the M ethos, the M division continues to offer superlative models that still cater for their traditional customer base. Yesteryear's E39 M5 customer demographic is more than adequately catered for with the new F10 M5. Sure, it's bigger and more luxurios and more tech-laden but it's also faster and more capable (exactly the same was said of the E39 in its day - an old man like me will remember). That's what that particular market demographic wants and will pay for. If they didn't want that would they then buy an E63 AMG? Of course not - they'd buy an M3. So, traditional M pundits have the amazing 1M Coupé to lust after, the E90/92 M3 in the twilight of its illustrious innings to snap up while they can and a bigger, heavier more luxurious M5 that still wins its comparative tests. So what really has changed for BMW M in the traditional sense? Nothing. Even the E46 M3 CSL (a highly, highly focused product offered to too many who didn't have a clue what they were spending their money on) has the E92 M3 GTS as a spiritual successor - this time offered more sensibly to the right customers.

Coming back to turbocharged engines and the statement that M no longer offers "special engines" well, if the S63Tu isn't special with its absolutely unique combination of configuration, delivery characteristics and rpm range then I don't know what is - especially in the light of the present turbocharging trend. BMW's pioneering work on the hot-side-inside concept is so groundbreaking that it was soon and blatantly imitated. Those M bastards - lost the plot they have. I don't know by what standard members here deem to judge an engine as special. Is it because the engine in the 1M is borrowed from two "iS" niche models that it's judged a half-hearted effort? What the...? It's the only twin-turbo straight six engine in series production. It makes an impressive 250 kW and a collosal 500 Nm in a silky smooth, quick responding engine fitted to a compact body. If this is not good enough then nothing will be - it's the turbo era: get used to it. I am equally confident that the new straight six in the F30 M3 will be suitably special in the context of modern practice.

As for M Performance, the automotive landscape is characterised by a trend to "plug-that-niche" in order to broaden the opportunity base. Audi has successfully done so using the combination of regular, S-Line, S and RS models. The M Performance branding is being implemented simply to offer consumers a greater range of choice as opposed to diluting the strong brand recognition and admiration of the full-blown M cars.

And finally, as for BMW's rather verbose naming convention, that's old news. Dead Horse Beaten. It's not like xDrive3.0d has done anything detrimental to the sales performance of BMW models bearing such nomenclature.


I am far far from anti-BMW. From someone who's honestly been fortunate and blessed enough to have BMW's ever since I can remember, I can honestly say BMW is actually starting to stray away from what it once was, a drivers car. BMW makes great cars, but all of this "Biggest Luxury Manufacturer" really doesn't make sense to me. If I may, I will reply to the points you brought up.

The S65 has been my favorite 'Affordable' engine for a long time and I honestly hate to see it go and if Mercedes-Benz can put a 5.5L V8 in an SLK and make it save enough gas, why can't BMW? R&D would be too expensive and BMW just doesn't want to do it. Cars like the 911, Aventador, Subaru BRZ/ Scion FR-S are either too expensive or don't offer the space and comfort a car like the M3 does.

///M Cars are meant to be balanced and special vehicles. They aren't an ordinary run of the mill production car yet that is where they are heading. I don't like the fact that I see 20 M3's on the road. If you had an ///M car, you knew what the badge stood for. Today, that is not the case. An X5/X6 M doesn't need to exist(neither does an AMG variant really). A X5 5.0 would of fit the bill. A turbo 4.5L engine would achieve performance levels they need, wouldn't it?

I understand that ///M had undiscovered territory and all of this is for the money that they could be making which is exactly why BMW is going down the drain. They're focused more on money then anything else. Putting an ///M badge on the back of a 335i doesn't make it an M car. Tuning it differently so that it's almost like an ///M car, doesn't make it an M car. It's either a car ///M built or it's not. It's a shame we're going to be seeing M750i's and M328's. Keep in mind, these are the people we use to laugh at a couple years ago for putting a fake M badge on their car. Now, there really isn't a way to distinguish an M car from a non M car because the badge is going to be on anything and everything BMW makes. Of course people will be shooting for the ///M328 or the ///M335i, the badge was once something everyone coveted and wished they owned.

The consumer base for these cars obviously want practicality and comfort, all while having the ability to take it on a spirited run or even to a track day. The demographic wants light(not 4400 pounds light) cars that will hold the road. ///M cars were never about being the fastest in a straight line, but when the going got tough in the twisty stuff, that is when it started to shine. BMW's cars have become numb(partially thanks to that god awful electric steering they call 'sporty') and fat. They body rolls and you can actually see it roll. Instead of BMW investing into creating tech that saves fuel and makes the car heavier, why not just invest in trying to make the car lighter which in part will naturally make the car use less gas? Heck, it could even save enough across the line that you could actually put in an NA engine into your M cars.

BMW makes amazing engines, It's what they do and have been doing for years. I'm not saying that the engine in the M5 isn't great, what I am saying is that it's just not special.. Having a turbo on a car like that is taking the easy way out. While turbo charging offers significant gas savings, I don't think it answers the call for a car like the M3 which has built it's heritage around high revving, naturally aspirated, mind blowing, and awe inspiring engines. The 1 series M is yet another marketing gimmick from a division that was once 'The standard'. Yes, it drives well, and may very well be the closest thing to an e36, but you can't help but imagine what a beast it would of been if BMW had put in a modified version of the S65 in there.
 
I am far far from anti-BMW. From someone who's honestly been fortunate and blessed enough to have BMW's ever since I can remember, I can honestly say BMW is actually starting to stray away from what it once was, a drivers car. BMW makes great cars, but all of this "Biggest Luxury Manufacturer" really doesn't make sense to me. If I may, I will reply to the points you brought up.

The S65 has been my favorite 'Affordable' engine for a long time and I honestly hate to see it go and if Mercedes-Benz can put a 5.5L V8 in an SLK and make it save enough gas, why can't BMW? R&D would be too expensive and BMW just doesn't want to do it. Cars like the 911, Aventador, Subaru BRZ/ Scion FR-S are either too expensive or don't offer the space and comfort a car like the M3 does.

///M Cars are meant to be balanced and special vehicles. They aren't an ordinary run of the mill production car yet that is where they are heading. I don't like the fact that I see 20 M3's on the road. If you had an ///M car, you knew what the badge stood for. Today, that is not the case. An X5/X6 M doesn't need to exist(neither does an AMG variant really). A X5 5.0 would of fit the bill. A turbo 4.5L engine would achieve performance levels they need, wouldn't it?

I understand that ///M had undiscovered territory and all of this is for the money that they could be making which is exactly why BMW is going down the drain. They're focused more on money then anything else. Putting an ///M badge on the back of a 335i doesn't make it an M car. Tuning it differently so that it's almost like an ///M car, doesn't make it an M car. It's either a car ///M built or it's not. It's a shame we're going to be seeing M750i's and M328's. Keep in mind, these are the people we use to laugh at a couple years ago for putting a fake M badge on their car. Now, there really isn't a way to distinguish an M car from a non M car because the badge is going to be on anything and everything BMW makes. Of course people will be shooting for the ///M328 or the ///M335i, the badge was once something everyone coveted and wished they owned.

The consumer base for these cars obviously want practicality and comfort, all while having the ability to take it on a spirited run or even to a track day. The demographic wants light(not 4400 pounds light) cars that will hold the road. ///M cars were never about being the fastest in a straight line, but when the going got tough in the twisty stuff, that is when it started to shine. BMW's cars have become numb(partially thanks to that god awful electric steering they call 'sporty') and fat. They body rolls and you can actually see it roll. Instead of BMW investing into creating tech that saves fuel and makes the car heavier, why not just invest in trying to make the car lighter which in part will naturally make the car use less gas? Heck, it could even save enough across the line that you could actually put in an NA engine into your M cars.

BMW makes amazing engines, It's what they do and have been doing for years. I'm not saying that the engine in the M5 isn't great, what I am saying is that it's just not special.. Having a turbo on a car like that is taking the easy way out. While turbo charging offers significant gas savings, I don't think it answers the call for a car like the M3 which has built it's heritage around high revving, naturally aspirated, mind blowing, and awe inspiring engines. The 1 series M is yet another marketing gimmick from a division that was once 'The standard'. Yes, it drives well, and may very well be the closest thing to an e36, but you can't help but imagine what a beast it would of been if BMW had put in a modified version of the S65 in there.

I have the same view point as you, "not bad, but not what it should be". At least you owned BMW's, I only drove some of them, and always dreamt of owning one I like (M3 with 0 km). But unfortuntaley I do not see this happen anymore as I am losing my interest. Now with BMW is it either you like or you don't. I think there is no sense in discussing this.

For a BMW fan, this what BMW makes hurts, so either you close your eyes or suffer.
 
if Mercedes-Benz can put a 5.5L V8 in an SLK and make it save enough gas, why can't BMW?

Why should they? When they can make a turbo rev more than the so called 'high revving NA' engines from MB? Give it a linear throttle response, while making more power across a wider power range and be fuel efficient?

BMW makes amazing engines, It's what they do and have been doing for years. I'm not saying that the engine in the M5 isn't great, what I am saying is that it's just not special..

You can have your opinion, but almost no one who has driven an M5 holds that opinion. The S63Tu, by most accounts is a special engine and veritable technological tour de force. I doubt you can find a more advanced engine, this side of exotics and probably even counting a few exotics.

The 1 series M is yet another marketing gimmick from a division that was once 'The standard'. Yes, it drives well, and may very well be the closest thing to an e36, but you can't help but imagine what a beast it would of been if BMW had put in a modified version of the S65 in there.

Yea, I wonder why they didn't use the S65. In a car with that suspension and mechanical diff and the 6 speed it would have been brilliant. Would have probably cost more, but yea, would have been an awesome vehicle. A worthy successor to E46 M3. I wish they would build it, may be even a sedan!
 
Why should they? When they can make a turbo rev more than the so called 'high revving NA' engines from MB? Give it a linear throttle response, while making more power across a wider power range and be fuel efficient?

FYI the 458 Italia is still superior to the MP4-12C. All reviews said that.

Yea, I wonder why they didn't use the S65. In a car with that suspension and mechanical diff and the 6 speed it would have been brilliant. Would have probably cost more, but yea, would have been an awesome vehicle. A worthy successor to E46 M3. I wish they would build it, may be even a sedan!

If the 1M had the S65 who would buy the heavy M3?
 

BMW

Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, abbreviated as BMW is a German multinational manufacturer of luxury vehicles and motorcycles headquartered in Munich, Bavaria, Germany. The company was founded in 1916 as a manufacturer of aircraft engines, which it produced from 1917 to 1918 and again from 1933 to 1945.
Official website: BMW (Global), BMW (USA)

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