The Great Design Discussion and debate

[montana]

I was refering to Wagener speech about biomorphic forms and art history classes (and GTA butt kissing). He's implictly saying you have to had art lessons in order to understand the CLS design. And that's about anti industrial design as possible.

Oh, ok. Yes, I agree that such a statement is just dumb. Like I've said before, I like the lines, but saying that someone has to take an art class to understand a cardesign is just.. weird, actually. Never thought I'd hear such a thing coming from a "chief designer".

 

[martinbo]

Again, for the sake of clarity, Wagener did not make such a statement:

You should also take this resin sculpture as a statement of design intent: All future Mercedes-Benz models will adopt this new design language, says Benz Chief of Design Gorden Wagener.

"We're changing attitude from a very wedge shape to the anti-wedge," he told journalists gulping down espresso and scones. To our eyes, this is a pretty definitive about-face from the excessively rectilinear E-Class.

The flowing character line that runs down the side of the car sculpture (and drops as it meets up with the exaggerated fenders) calls to mind Benzes of the 1930s like the 540K. Wagener regards this era as one of the "most beautiful times" in Benz design history. If you took art history classes in college, you're meant to pick up on the biomorphic forms and art deco influence in this CLS sculpture.

Apparently, the only rectilinear element that will remain on the next generation of Mercedes-Benzes is the upright grille. That's the heart of Benz brand identity so there's no doing away with that.

The above is from this piece on Edmunds Inside Line: http://blogs.insideline.com/straigh...z-cls-sculpted-at-2010-detroit-auto-show.html

What's underlined is what Wagener can be quoted as saying. The rest is a reported by the author of the piece - Erin Riches.

The URL that GTA provides to corroborate this does not contain any references to such a quote from Wagener.

 

[Sunny]

This is how shit gets made up in the Internet. Give it a few more cycles in a few forums and that quote will become authenticated signed affidavit from Wagner... and he will have GTA to thank.

 

[Gianclaudio]

That's what you Martin and Sunny think, but you can't understand Wagener words if you never took literature classes about abstract languages

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

^ The G and GLK also feature that edgy look, somewhat similar to the 212. Steffen Köhl explains the thinking in this vid, which English subtitles. More edgy, less rounded, more character, an icon standing its ground against the flow. Different directions may compete internally?

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http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/glk-facelift-photos.37394/page-2#post-524220

Great video Wolf! There was clearly confusion in the design department. They wanted to make a statement with the the GLK and create a design which was a juxtaposition against the organic forms of other manufacturers, which they did, but come facelift time they tried to make it more organic. They have also stated that this is the future direction of their design.

There other proposal shown in the video is incredibly rounded and almost Porsche Cayenne like at the rear.

 

[Wolfgang]

A bit of turmoil can help creativity, though, Mr.Mercedes. Suspect some projects may receive a dozen or so competing proposals, but maybe Mr. Pfeiffer/Wagener & Co. should sail a straighter course picking winners. Since folks talked a bit about design courses and such in this thread, thought there might be some interest in the course work recently completed by one of the MB designers. He's the guy on the far left, with only half his head shown.

Source: CAR BODY DESIGN

Like his stuff. Glad he's on the Mercedes-Benz team!

 

[Levi68]

LOL
I had such a car about 8 years ago. I liked it very much, but my brother broke it. It was made of plastic, 1/32 scale or probably even smaller, and I got it in a Kinder Surprise.

But seriously I like what he did.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

BYE BYE BABUSHKA FOR AUDI!

http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2012/audi/audi-bids-babushka-bye-bye-33647

 

[K-A]

Re: The "overhang" conversation from the SL thread. Both of these have pretty large overhangs.

​

 

[Merc1]

You either don't know what an overhang is or you really don't know what a truly large overhang is. Once again we're caught up on pictures because in real life neither one of these cars has nothing even approaching a large overhang. The front of both of those cars are perfectly proportioned. Does anyone here see a large overhang on the CLS or especially the SL, I seriously doubt it.


M

 

[K-A]

I know exactly what an overhang is and I've always noticed the SL and previous CLS having a large-ish one (nobody ever said "HUGE", just slightly large, which hasn't changed with the new SL, nor with that "mystery Convertible" in question). For RWD cars, neither have very small overhangs. The E-Class has always had a smaller overhang than the CLS as it's on the same wheelbase but shorter in length (i.e in overhang).

 

[deity]

Uhh, yes, the previous CLS had a HUGE front overhang, as did the previous SL. M-B curves the front bumpers to try and hide it, but both cars have rather large overhangs. The CLS always has a longer overhang than the E, just like the 6 Series does VS the 5, as it's the only way they're able to extend the "length" of the car without actually extended the chassis.

 

[K-A]

Whoops. LOL.

I rephrase that. The SL had a HUGE overhang, but the CLS's was just "pretty big".

I still love the R230, but it's got a phat overhang. Big overhangs aren't always bad, the Porsche 911 has a large front overhang, but it wears it well, and is designed for it. The SL can kind of pull it off and is "fit for it" as well, at least a lot more than a conventionally shaped and proportioned car.

 

[Merc1]

I know exactly what an overhang is and I've always noticed the SL and previous CLS having a large-ish one (nobody ever said "HUGE", just slightly large, which hasn't changed with the new SL, nor with that "mystery Convertible" in question). For RWD cars, neither have very small overhangs. The E-Class has always had a smaller overhang than the CLS as it's on the same wheelbase but shorter in length (i.e in overhang).

Whatever man, nothing could be further from the truth. Mercedes' have never had a overhang problem until now according to you. How could one look at the CLS and the previous SL and see a large overhang is beyond me. I don't think anyone here sees that but you, but I'm sure they will chime in if the see differently.

EDIT: If the SL has a large overhang, but it doesn't suffer from it, or "pulls it off", then WTH is the point? Again, much ado about nothing.

M

 

[K-A]

You really love to argue, don't you?

It has a HUGE OVERHANG! Just look at it. You won't be able to find many MODERN RWD cars that have a larger (proportioned to body) overhang than the R230 SL. Look at that last picture of the SL, you can make a Smart Car with that overhang space! Whether or not that makes it ugly is a whole different story.

Remember, this whole "thing" came up when a picture of the R231 was posted, and some members criticized the "large overhang" and not ideal proportions. I then brought up the previous SL having an even larger overhang, along with the previous CLS. Also, we've all seen the "Mystery Convertible" which has such horrible proportions, people are speculating that it's a possible FWD car when in fact is might just be the next CL.

 

[K-A]

Compare it to the W212's overhang. Much tighter than either the SL or previous (or current) CLS's.

 

[Merc1]

You really love to argue, don't you?

It has a HUGE OVERHANG! Just look at it. You won't be able to find many MODERN RWD cars that have a larger (proportioned to body) overhang than the R230 SL. Look at that last picture of the SL, you can make a Smart Car with that overhang space! Whether or not that makes it ugly is a whole different story.

Remember, this whole "thing" came up when a picture of the R231 was posted, and some members criticized the "large overhang" and not ideal proportions. I then brought up the previous SL having an even larger overhang, along with the previous CLS. Also, we've all seen the "Mystery Convertible" which has such horrible proportions, people are speculating that it's a possible FWD car when in fact is might just be the next CL.

For one you're not specifying if you're talking about the front or the rear overhang. Secondly the SL is roadster. Thirdly, I don't know what smart car you've seen, but a Smart WON'T fit in the rear or the front overhang of the previous SL.

If anything the previous SL and the current E have the same size rear overhang. Front is shorter on the E of course, but then again the SL is a roadster. Long front, short deck, is what most roadsters are.

I don't think you even know what an overhang is with the Smart car comment.

Yet at the end of the day, the previous SL was a gorgeous machine, actually better looking than the new one, I think we both can agree on that. The the new one blows it out the water in nearly every other criteria.

In the above pic of all the SL models, the R129's rear overhang is longer than the R230's.

Don't love to argue, I just don't see how someone can come up with such ridiculous theories and see things that just aren't there.

Mercedes' cars (until this new SL) have been some of the best proportioned cars on the road, even most BMW fanatics will agree with that. Overhangs and proportions have not been Mercedes' problem. None of what you're saying makes any sense.

That pic of the previous CLS in white, shows a perfectly proportioned car. That front wheel is midway between the front bumper and the door opening, unlike some Audi models, where the wheel is right at the front door, or very close to it. How in the world you see a large or big front overhang on the previous CLS is beyond me.


Mercedes' rear overhangs don't ever look out of place on the road. You're caught up on pictures and not what these cars look like in real life on the road because there, in that instance, there is nothing wrong with their overhangs, front or rear.

M

 

[K-A]

Ok, first off I'm only commenting on FRONT overhang, not rear. I usually don't pay attention to a rear overhang (actually some overhang in the rear looks good).

The SL's FRONT overhang has always been big, but yes, that doesn't mean ugly. The last SL is beautiful, a future Classic IMO.

 

[HighestOfHigh]

If I hear or see the word OVERHANG one more time.........

 

[klier]

Glad he's on the Mercedes-Benz team!

I'm glad too, because that means he won't design for BMW, and that also means we won't see a BMW that looks like the starship Enterprise!