The Great Design Discussion and debate

[Hofmeister]

The themes are taken from nature in abstract form and language. You cannot compare them with conventional design language concepts.

So perhaps we should compare it to leaves instead of ( dare I say it ) its competitors?

vs.

or

???

 

[K-A]

The crashing angles and disjointed lines on the CLS really look anything but pure and naturistic to me. The 6 GC far more harmonious and organic.

 

[GTA45E]

I'm sorry Admin for not performing my moderation obligations - I swear that I felt compelled initially to do so.

I just couldn't stop laughing.

Oh that was a productive statement (pretty worthless I might add)... Don`t make such an issue out of it.
I didn`t, thats why I decided to not to fix it later after computer issues.
------------------------

Anyway, I did some digging and found out it was Habib, under the direction of Wagener, who designed the CLS.
I knew it was someone from the BMW team. Wagener must have payed Habib to join the Mercedes team for a few months because Habib, I believe is back with the BMW design team.

New Mercedes-Benz design boss Gorden Wagener is convincing top talent from competitors to join his team.

Karim Habib, the exterior designer of the new BMW 7 series, has been lured to Mercedes where he will head up the advanced design studio on the outskirts of Stuttgart.



Habib will work under Wagener. In January, Joel Piaskowski left his job as Hyundai's North American design chief to become head of design at Mercedes' U.S. advanced design studio near Carlsbad, California.

Piaskowski is credited as the main designer for the Hyundai Genesis sedan and coupe. He spent 13 years at General Motors before joining Hyundai in 2003.

Just months after succeeding Peter Pfeiffer at Mercedes, Wagener, 40, has realigned design activities, added a center of excellence for vehicle interiors, and decided to open a design studio in China.

Hartmut Sinkwitz is the manager of the new interior center of excellence, which is located outside of Stuttgart. Sinkwitz was in charge of interiors prior to Wagener's realignment.

Olivier Boulay, formerly in charge of the the automaker's design bureau in Tokyo, is taking over the Chinese office.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090317/ANE02/903179993

 

[K-A]

Oh that was a productive statement (pretty worthless I might add)... Don`t make such an issue out of it.
I didn`t, thats why I decided to not to fix it later computer issues.
------------------------

Anyway, I did some digging and found out it was Habib, under the direction of Wagener, who designed the CLS.
I knew it was someone from the BMW team. Wagener must have payed Habib to join the Mercedes team for a few months because Habib, I believe is back with the BMW design team.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090317/ANE02/903179993

Isn't the Korean fellow (can't remember his name but remember him from interviews and videos) the guy who designed the CLS?

If it was Habib, that would make all the sense. BMW sent him to M-B to sabotage the car with stupid lines that crash into each other and make no sense, altering angles right on top of each other, a confused mass of waywardness that regress away from the sleek and slender, one motion length the car should have conveyed, that would also in turn trick some self-proclaimed design-geniuses to feel they can make snobby sense of the mayhem while criticizing those who can't, ultimately compromising what should have been a car focused on its striking architectural shape.

 

[GTA45E]

Interesting...
With a little more digging I found this statement from Wagener.

Gordan Wagener..." If you took art history classes in college, your ment to pick up on the biomorphic forms of this CLS sculpture"..

http://search.autonews.com/executives/gorden-wagener.htm

 

[Wolfgang]

^ SDNR alludes to it a while back on GCF.

http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/new-objects.558/

 

[Gianclaudio]

LOL at Wagener. Great way to hide his/his team poor design.
And besides and foremost, this is INDUSTRIAL DESIGN: a product aimed at mass consumption,on which the idea is to broaden the appeal to the masses of the item you design/sell, not to end up with a questionable desing and had to come with some snob excuses about your laboured, tired, over design.

Regards

 

[montana]

on which the idea is to broaden the appeal to the masses of the item you design/sell,

The CLS doesn't appeal to the masses? In which way?

 

[Gianclaudio]

I was refering to Wagener speech about biomorphic forms and art history classes (and GTA butt kissing). He's implictly saying you have to had art lessons in order to understand the CLS design. And that's about anti industrial design as possible.

Just like GTA likes to quote Wagoner, I'll like to quote the 10 designs principles of one of the best designers ever, Dieter Rams (IMO, along Raymond Loewy and Giorgietto Giugiario):

Rams' ten principles of "good design"

• Is innovative - The possibilities for innovation are not, by any means, exhausted. Technological development is always offering new opportunities for innovative design. But innovative design always develops in tandem with innovative technology, and can never be an end in itself.

• Makes a product useful - A product is bought to be used. It has to satisfy certain criteria, not only functional, but also psychological and aesthetic. Good design emphasizes the usefulness of a product whilst disregarding anything that could possibly detract from it.

• Is aesthetic - The aesthetic quality of a product is integral to its usefulness because products are used every day and have an effect on people and their well-being. Only well-executed objects can be beautiful.

• Makes a product understandable - It clarifies the product’s structure. Better still, it can make the product clearly express its function by making use of the user's intuition. At best, it is self-explanatory.

• Is unobtrusive - Products fulfilling a purpose are like tools. They are neither decorative objects nor works of art. Their design should therefore be both neutral and restrained, to leave room for the user's self-expression.

• Is honest - It does not make a product more innovative, powerful or valuable than it really is. It does not attempt to manipulate the consumer with promises that cannot be kept.

• Is long-lasting - It avoids being fashionable and therefore never appears antiquated. Unlike fashionable design, it lasts many years – even in today's throwaway society.

• Is thorough down to the last detail - Nothing must be arbitrary or left to chance. Care and accuracy in the design process show respect towards the consumer.

• Is environmentally friendly - Design makes an important contribution to the preservation of the environment. It conserves resources and minimizes physical and visual pollution throughout the lifecycle of the product.

• Is as little design as possible - Less, but better – because it concentrates on the essential aspects, and the products are not burdened with non-essentials. Back to purity, back to simplicity.

Good material for the though

 

[7saen]

Anyway, I did some digging and found out it was Habib, under the direction of Wagener, who designed the CLS.
I knew it was someone from the BMW team. Wagener must have payed Habib to join the Mercedes team for a few months because Habib, I believe is back with the BMW design team.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090317/ANE02/903179993

That Information is incorrect.
The CLS was long finished before Karim Habib joined Mercedes. In the brief time he was head of the Advanced Design studio in Germany he did not design any car himself.
The Designer of the CLS is Hubert Lee, who is now head of the Advanced design Studio in California.

 

[K-A]

I was refering to Wagener speech about biomorphic forms and art history classes (and GTA butt kissing). He's implictly saying you have to had art lessons in order to understand the CLS design. And that's about anti industrial design as possible.

Just like GTA likes to quote Wagoner, I'll like to quote the 10 designs principles of one of the best designers ever, Dieter Rams (IMO, along Raymond Loewy and Giorgietto Giugiario):

Rams' ten principles of "good design"

• Is innovative - The possibilities for innovation are not, by any means, exhausted. Technological development is always offering new opportunities for innovative design. But innovative design always develops in tandem with innovative technology, and can never be an end in itself.

• Makes a product useful - A product is bought to be used. It has to satisfy certain criteria, not only functional, but also psychological and aesthetic. Good design emphasizes the usefulness of a product whilst disregarding anything that could possibly detract from it.

• Is aesthetic - The aesthetic quality of a product is integral to its usefulness because products are used every day and have an effect on people and their well-being. Only well-executed objects can be beautiful.

• Makes a product understandable - It clarifies the product’s structure. Better still, it can make the product clearly express its function by making use of the user's intuition. At best, it is self-explanatory.

• Is unobtrusive - Products fulfilling a purpose are like tools. They are neither decorative objects nor works of art. Their design should therefore be both neutral and restrained, to leave room for the user's self-expression.

• Is honest - It does not make a product more innovative, powerful or valuable than it really is. It does not attempt to manipulate the consumer with promises that cannot be kept.

• Is long-lasting - It avoids being fashionable and therefore never appears antiquated. Unlike fashionable design, it lasts many years – even in today's throwaway society.

• Is thorough down to the last detail - Nothing must be arbitrary or left to chance. Care and accuracy in the design process show respect towards the consumer.

• Is environmentally friendly - Design makes an important contribution to the preservation of the environment. It conserves resources and minimizes physical and visual pollution throughout the lifecycle of the product.

• Is as little design as possible - Less, but better – because it concentrates on the essential aspects, and the products are not burdened with non-essentials. Back to purity, back to simplicity.

Good material for the though

Wow, that just pretty much debunks EVERY design idiom coming from Mr. Superfluous and egotistical design: Gordon Wagener.

Wagener saying "biomorphic design/taking art classes" is basically an explanation to everyone who wonders what the hell he was thinking when approving such a non-flowing design. Maybe biomorphic just doesn't work when under the strict guidelines of car architecture. Cars need to flow, make sense, tie together to the eyes, or else they will just date and look jarring over time.

 

[Wolfgang]

Wagener might not have said so. Looks like Erin Riches may have authored the text in question?

If you took art history classes in college, you're meant to pick up on the biomorphic forms and art deco influence in this CLS sculpture. http://blogs.insideline.com/straigh...z-cls-sculpted-at-2010-detroit-auto-show.html

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

That Information is incorrect.
The CLS was long finished before Karim Habib joined Mercedes. In the brief time he was head of the Advanced Design studio in Germany he did not design any car himself.
The Designer of the CLS is Hubert Lee, who is now head of the Advanced design Studio in California.

This thread is such a Mercedes design bitch fest. lol. Well at least the designs are least evoking something other than boredom (aka Audi) and indifference (BMW). Though they are both nice enough.

Hussein what is your take on the CLS and MB's design direction in General? Do you know if the CLS and current E and SL are the products of Wagoners leadership or are the newer more organic forms we will be seeing on the S his doing?

 

[Wolfgang]

^ Suspect Wagener assigned 212 designer Thomas Stopka to the team inventing mimicking biology?

Habib, and his team of Oliver Samson, Thomas Stopka, Yves Renaud, and Sylvain Wehnert, recently unveiled some of the concept designs they’ve been working on at a private industry event, and we’ve got some pictures. Clearly inspired by organic geometry and fluid shapes, the designs look to capitalize on a growing trend towards auto design mimicking biology, with sinuous, aquatic lines juxtaposed with honeycomb-like skeletal structures. Nothing here you’ll see on the road anytime soon, but a good look into the design chamber at the luxury auto maker.

http://www.freshnessmag.com/2010/11/16/mercedes-benz-sculpture-experiments/

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

The w212 seems like such an anomaly. It's is so 'square' and 'rigid' compared to anything else within the line up, vehcile that appeared just before and just after, and begs the question how exactly the design got approved and the rationale behind it. What's even more interesting is that the exterior designer even got to do the interior design, which is a rare event in itself, and why the interior is also very rigid.

It will be interesting to see how successful they are in bringing it into line with the rest of the family with the facelift.

 

[Wolfgang]

^ The G and GLK also feature that edgy look, somewhat similar to the 212. Steffen Köhl explains the thinking in this vid, which English subtitles. More edgy, less rounded, more character, an icon standing its ground against the flow. Different directions may compete internally?

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/glk-facelift-photos.37394/page-2#post-524220

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

I forgot about the GLK. We don't get it here in Australia so it tends to slip my mind. But yes it is in the same vein as the E. Perhaps it's telling that the GLK got such a major facelift and now the same will be true for the E. Does MB recognize that these designs were actually not in keeping with the times?

I would say the new GL is softer than than the E, though slightly edgier than the ML.

I'll have to watch that video when I get home.

 

[K-A]

The problem is shoddy management and foresight. M-B's design idioms have been all over the place lately, so much so that they have to about-face almost every facelift to keep in line with whatever newest product has come out. M-B is dating its old products at a rate never seen before (GLK entirely new front oddly grafted onto the existing angular body, R-Class mistake-correction, W204 interior complete overhaul, etc.)

M-B were all over cubism and eliminating soft edges just 4 years ago when the W212 came out, then all of a sudden, they want to back to round and "organic", so what happens to the W212 and GLK? Well, they look like the b*stard children in the lineup and now get these awkward graftings of rounded elements on otherwise existing angular designs, via very extensive changes for mere facelifts.

The big thing I'm wondering now is how the GL will "fit in", considering it basically takes the W212's design language completely, full with Ponton-fender, and cubism (though a little smoothed over and not as aggressively sharp, but similar theme)? Maybe M-B just want to abandon close design idiom with some of its cars.... though what doesn't make sense is that you then have some cars that are very similar, too much so, like the SLK and SL, for example.

 

[Wolfgang]

^ When's this one going organic?



http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motora...s-keys-250-000-mercedes-unimog-181556572.html

 

[martinbo]

Wagener did not make that statement. GTA falsely quoted him as doing so and the URL he provided does not contain any reference to the statement.