Panamera [Spy Shots] Porsche Panamera Thread II (Spy pics & info)

[SKY]

I don't think that positioning is exactly correct Eni. You are mixing up different market segments and approaches to this excercise.

As i see it, there are 2 basic approaches to the 4-door coupe. The first (Passat CC, CLS and A7) is just a marketing ploy to to sex up the normal respective sedans (Passat, E-class and A6) and to fill in a gap in the manufacturers price segmentation. The second is to extend a brand's product range with a sedan - smth that doesn't exactly fit in their image. This is the Panamera and the Aston case. I'm not sure how BMW will position their 4-door coupe, but the price that will not tell us the whole story.

Even if the price was the only differentiating factor, Mercedes is working on a 4-door coupe for their next-generation S-class which in all likelihood, will be as expensive as the BMW.

As a last note, according to AMS Porsche is charging 80000E for the 6 cylinder version and the Porsche price curve is usually very steep. I'm not sure BMW will be more expensive than that.

Anyway, nice work from the CM point of view

I thought that was not coomfirmed that Mercedes was workin on a 4 dr coupe for the next S-Class.

 

[EnI]

I don't think that positioning is exactly correct Eni. You are mixing up different market segments and approaches to this excercise.

As i see it, there are 2 basic approaches to the 4-door coupe. The first (Passat CC, CLS and A7) is just a marketing ploy to to sex up the normal respective sedans (Passat, E-class and A6) and to fill in a gap in the manufacturers price segmentation. The second is to extend a brand's product range with a sedan - smth that doesn't exactly fit in their image. This is the Panamera and the Aston case. I'm not sure how BMW will position their 4-door coupe, but the price that will not tell us the whole story.

Even if the price was the only differentiating factor, Mercedes is working on a 4-door coupe for their next-generation S-class which in all likelihood, will be as expensive as the BMW.

As a last note, according to AMS Porsche is charging 80000E for the 6 cylinder version and the Porsche price curve is usually very steep. I'm not sure BMW will be more expensive than that.

Anyway, nice work from the CM point of view

Now you are wrong.

CS will be positioned quite above 7er ... In the MB CL price territory: so, starting in Germany at approx. 115k Euros - reaching up to 157k for standard V12 CL600; while AMG CL65 AMG reaches the price of even 220k Euros)).

I'm sure Porsche will not go that far with base Panamera, since Porsche officials indicated many times 911 will remain Porsche's "flagship" - pricewise (price range: 86k - 154k Euros).

MB S-based 4dr coupe: there was only one rumor: either in AutoBild, or AMS - I don't recall precisely right now.

More possible: luxury 4dr coupe-cabrio - based on Ocean Drive concept. While S will retain limo shape, and CL a 2dr sedanish coupe form. SL will be 2-seaer roadster, while SLC will be a 2-seater coupe with gull-wing doors.
There will be no 4dr coupe from MB: but more likeley there will be one from Maybach - positioned between OCD 4dr cabrio, and the Maybach limo. Something in baby Rolls coupe price segment.

Yes, I'm sure Porsche (and even will MB, and perhaps the Audi as well) will offer some models beyond the price of base BMW CS 4dr GT: but regarding 4dr GT / coupe line-up the fact remains: VW < MB, Audi < Porsche < BMW < Aston Martin < possible Rolls-Royce, possible Maybach.

 

[Centurion]

This is very interesting ...

How the brands are now positioned with their respected (or upcoming) 4dr coupes / GTs:

VW < MB & Audi < Porsche < BMW < Aston Martin < Maybach, Rolls-Royce (both rumored).

The fact that BMW positioned their 4dr GT above MB, Audi, and even Porsche is very interesting. Especially regarding "sport-luxury" positioning ... especially in Chinese, Russian & Indian markets.

You're forgetting Bugatti. The car to be manufactured after Veyron production ends is rumored to be code named project Royale, a four door high speed coupe aka Panamera's nightmare.

 

[EnI]

You're forgetting Bugatti. The car to be manufactured after Veyron production ends is rumored to be code named project Royale, a four door high speed coupe aka Panamera's nightmare.

But this car will possibly positioned even above RR / Maybach 4dr coupe ... Something like a 800k Euro car.

Mind in VAG/PAG portfolio Bugatti is now positioned way above Bentley.

Skoda < Seat < VW < Audi < Porsche < Lamborghini < Bentley < Bugatti

 

[Centurion]

But this car will possibly positioned even above RR / Maybach 4dr coupe ... Something like a 800k Euro car.

Mind in VAG/PAG portfolio Bugatti is now positioned way above Bentley.

Skoda < Seat < VW < Audi < Porsche < Lamborghini < Bentley < Bugatti

Yes it will be very expensive. So this is how it goes with the four door coupes

Entry level: Passat CC

Luxury: CLS, A7 and Maybach(?)

Sport/luxury: CS and Rapide

Sport: Panamera and Bugatti Royale(?)

BMW are obviously positioning their coupe very high because of image. When it comes to prestige and luxury BMW don't have the same reputation as Mercedes, RR and Bentley and hence will use the CS to push their image in to the stratosphere.

 

[ducati1482]

hmmm, im not convinced
http://www.leftlanenews.com/wp-content/plugins/iimage-gallery.php?idpost=8187&idg=3&idi=1

why does this remind me of a refined AMC Pacer?

 

[EnI]

Yes it will be very expensive. So this is how it goes with the four door coupes

Still the Panamera - although most probably performance wise superior to CS & Rapide - will be priced below the CS, and much more bellow Rapide (which will sit in a price segment even above CS).

Rumored Bugatti 4dr (although VAG won't go for it - since they have much more important job to do: reduce gas emissions to fit EU regulation) would probably be sportiest, offering best performance, and being most expensive in the 4dr coupe segment.

 

[Centurion]

Still the Panamera - although most probably performance wise superior to CS & Rapide - will be priced below the CS, and much more bellow Rapide (which will sit in a price segment even above CS).

Well that's nothing unusual. Porsche has always manufactured top performing cars at very competitive prices. Just look at what a performer the GT3 is compared with cars like the AMV8, F430 and Gallardo. "Sports fur alles" is the moto. CS and Rapide will cost more as a result of lower production and use of more expensive interior materials. Technology wise the Panamera will not be inferior in any ways. Dual clutch, Hybrid, advanced suspension and LEDs will all be there.

 

[EnI]

Definitely the CS & Rapide will be more luxury - more status / luxury-image-making cars for the BMW & AM brands. New flagships.

While Panamera will be a Porsche sedan. Not a new Porsche flagship. 911 will still hold this position. Something for the price of M5, E / CLS AMG - but with better performance & much more exclusivity.

The production volume will also be different: 20k annually for Panamera, CS will hardly reach half of that number, Rapide perhaps 2k per year or even less. And the price will be set accoriding to this exclusivity.

 

[Centurion]

Depending on Dr. Wendelin Wiedeking's mood we might see a two door coupe(928) version based on the Panamera platform commanding a higher price near the same price category of the 599 GTB. This is fully possible since Porsche has made major factory extensions for the Panamera. A much more cost effective solution than to develop a CGT successor.

Although the Rapide or CS might use more luxurious materials the Panamera will also come with equally as much status, it's a Porsche after all. We've all seen how high up Porsche are on image ratings so the Panamera will absolutely not kneel before the Rapide or CS. Besides that we've seen the size of the beast in relation to the Rapide. Very wide car commanding attention and respect which it will earn as a result of it's performance. The Panamera Turbo will be a very appreciated car amongst the high rollers.

Just look at how the Cayenne ate into the upper end SUV luxury segment. With starting price lower than the Range Rover the Cayenne is still equally as prestigious. The status of a Porsche has never been defined by price tag but by what it's capable of doing on the roads.

 

[EnI]

I still disagree.

AM is definitely more prestigious brand than Porsche. And Porsche brand is still considered being more prestigious than BMW.

But regarding the specific cars:

Rapide: 200k Euros base price, approx. 1,500 units per year
CS: 120k Euros base price, approx. 10,000 units per year.
Panamera: 85k Euros base price, approx. 20,000 units per year.

It's obvious which car will be considered most & which less prestigious in this case. Disregarding the brand.

I'm sure Panamera will be a terrific car, and will top M5, E/CSL AMG, and even Rapide & CS in performance (and will thus be an enthusiast's choice), do not have illusions it will as prestigious as you expect (vs CS, CL, Rapide, GT Continental etc).

The image-seekers will definitellly opt for CL, CS, Rapide, GTC ... Panamera will be a choice of driving enthusiasts & those who value best price/image/performance ratio.

 

[Kowalski]

The Panamera is a minger.

 

[EnI]

The Panamera is a minger.

Minger - explained.

Septic vagina ... LOL!

 

[Kowalski]

Minger - explained.

Septic vagina ... LOL!

It also means when something is fugly.

Which is the case of the Panamera. Porsche had everything to make the Panamera a real beauty and yet they managed f*** everything up.

 

[dorcollaku]

Eni, we might both be right. For the moment we don't know it (though you have a much better knowledge wrt to BMW plans).

I still think there is a missunderstaing of Panamera's true positioning. Panamera is going to be a direct competitor in the S-class, A8, 7 series segment, albeit taking a more sporty perspective into it. The fact that Porsche are targeting 20000 to 30000 units in annual sales unveils its more maintstream positioning. The next CS. the MB CL and the hypothetical 4-door-coupe-S-class are just an attempt to follow another market segment that can't be pursued by their mainstream sedans. The direct competitor to Panamera would be the Maserati Quattroporte; not the Rapide. It looks like Porsche marketing has done a clever job on this, and i believe the Porsche engineering will deliver on that promise. The cars that are going to 'suffer' the most will be the AMG badged S-classes and the sporty 7-series.

 

[Centurion]

Eni, we might both be right. For the moment we don't know it (though you have a much better knowledge wrt to BMW plans).

I still think there is a missunderstaing of Panamera's true positioning. Panamera is going to be a direct competitor in the S-class, A8, 7 series segment, albeit taking a more sporty perspective into it. The fact that Porsche are targeting 20000 to 30000 units in annual sales unveils its more maintstream positioning. The next CS. the MB CL and the hypothetical 4-door-coupe-S-class are just an attempt to follow another market segment that can't be pursued by their mainstream sedans. The direct competitor to Panamera would be the Maserati Quattroporte; not the Rapide. It looks like Porsche marketing has done a clever job on this, and i believe the Porsche engineering will deliver on that promise. The cars that are going to 'suffer' the most will be the AMG badged S-classes and the sporty 7-series.

The s-class and 7er is not the target at all. Panamera won't be marketed as a sports car. From the start its been developed as a M5 beater with becoming the best performing four door car on the planet. It's not designed to be the most comfortable long distance cruiser on the planet. The Quattroporte doesn't even compare since it's not even on a par the M5 when it comes to performance. Heck Porsche has even said performance isn't far from the 911. The only thing it will have in common with the s-class and 7er is width and front cabin space.

Most importantly the Panamera will be target towards the younger crowd with a much more active image while the CS, Quattroporte and CL are generally purchased by the old execs.

 

[klier]

I almost never agree with Kowalski, but I must say this time I do

 

[Centurion]

Latest spyshots, but these with all the heavy camo back on.

 

[Merc1]

Shape shows promise in this shot.

M

 

[Misha]

Camo is peeling-off