Sport Auto - Nordschleife laptimes

[Levi68]

All these Sport Auto times between the R8GT and 458 prove is that of that occasion and with this driver the R8 was quicker.... nothing least. That's the problem with one mag and one driver being the industry standard.

That is what Andreas doesn't want to understand.

The R8 GT was quicker on P Zero Corsa semi-slicks. The 458 Italia did its 7.38 on regular Pilot Sports. Big difference.

The Ferrari 458 Italia was on the same bad tires as the LFA, the Bridgestone Potenza S001, by the way both did 7:38 min by Sport Auto. The Audi R8 GT was on Pirelli P Zero Corsa. There is no difference as you say, because both had stock tires, what was not the case of the M3 E92 that did 8:05 by Sport Auto. The new laptime of the 458 Italia is 7:28 min (not by Sport Auto), it is on the new Michelin Pilot Super Sport. What if the R8 GT also had Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires?

Laptimes must be done on stock tires. Unfortunately stock tires are not always the best, not bad, but not the best for doing one fastlap. Case of LFA and GT86 for example.

 

[Zafiro]

I'm saying this for the last time.
There are no 100% accurate meassurement, like I said before the only way is if the test was done with exact same circumstances, same day, same tyres etc etc and by the same driver. But at least Sportauto is way better than factory times which I dont believe much in.

One word: Markeeting

 

[martinbo]

Andreas doesn't have to understand anything. This is the problem on this forum: too many new members thinking the old, founding members are idiots. Like they haven't been through these discussions ad nauseam before.

We're not idiots. We understand that the Sport Auto times are not absolutes. We know that all sorts of factors can make car X faster in the hands of driver Y on Z tyres.

The point is, once and for all this is the Sport Auto Nordschleife thread. No other publication can lay claim to a more extensive test sample around the Ring. Furthermore, their approach is as meticulous as it is consistent - they literally own the most extensive repository of test data for most of the brands out there on this particular circuit. As for Horst von Saurma, well if he doesn't know every inch of this circuit like the back of his hand then no one does.

The kinds of times this guy puts in, in all kinds of cars, is simply incredible. The times are what they are and that they are laboriously gathered by just one publication is something they can only be given credit and recognition for.

These times are the standard and the frame of reference - not the absolute. The old guard knows this.

 

[Levi68]

I'm saying this for the last time.
There are no 100% accurate meassurement, like I said before the only way is if the test was done with exact same circumstances, same day, same tyres etc etc and by the same driver. But at least Sportauto is way better than factory times which I dont believe much in.

One word: Markeeting

So it means the cars will not have stock tires, what again makes it irrelevant, as with a car from factory you won't be able to make those times, because first you have to "mod". I'd then say every owner has to post his own times with the list of modifications brought to the car and whether conditions.

 

[Zafiro]

Seriously Levi, just give it up. If you dont like Sportauto thats fine but my opinion is final. Factory times is worthless just like a pile of poo in an abandon lake.

 

[Gianclaudio]

Your point is trying to justify factory times because Sport Auto's time of the LFA is very distant from what Lexus claim.

Come on Alex, we know it

 

[Levi68]

So according the Sport Auto the 458 Italia with its time of 7:38 min is as fast as an LFA, what is still slow, because it is only 2 seconds faster than the luxury sports GT, the SLS AMG. And the Aventador also is "slow" and disapointing because it is only 3 seconds faster than the MP4-12C.

 

[Gianclaudio]

The thing is, Ferrari, Mercedes or Lamborghini didn't claim times 20 whole seconds better than what Sport Auto achieved

And about every car that puts a sub 8:00 time is scarily fast, if you ask me... and the Aventador time is nothing short of amazing, if you thing how much F1 development there is on the Macca.

Regards

 

[south]

The Ferrari 458 Italia was on the same bad tires as the LFA, the Bridgestone Potenza S001, by the way both did 7:38 min by Sport Auto. The Audi R8 GT was on Pirelli P Zero Corsa. There is no difference as you say, because both had stock tires, what was not the case of the M3 E92 that did 8:05 by Sport Auto. The new laptime of the 458 Italia is 7:28 min (not by Sport Auto), it is on the new Michelin Pilot Super Sport. What if the R8 GT also had Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires?

Laptimes must be done on stock tires. Unfortunately stock tires are not always the best, not bad, but not the best for doing one fastlap. Case of LFA and GT86 for example.

Couple of things: Up until 2009 or 2010, the E92 M3 came on Michelin Pilot Cup+ tires with the 19" wheels, so yes, the tires used for Supertest were stock.

Also, it's fine when you say that tires need to be stock for Supertest (so the car tested is as similar to the car an owner would have as possible) but you also need to consider what kind of tires were used, stock or not. For example, a 458 running the same time on stock Pilot Sport is still way more impressive than a R8 GT running on stock Zero Corsa as the latter are semislick tires that are way softer (last only a couple of houndred kms) and have limited grip in the rain. I guess it's common understanding that tires are the single most relevant and easiest-to-mod parts to add grip and performance. Car manufacturers know that too well...


Best regards,
south

 

[Levi68]

The thing is, Ferrari, Mercedes or Lamborghini didn't claim times 20 whole seconds better than what Sport Auto achieved

And about every car that puts a sub 8:00 time is scarily fast, if you ask me... and the Aventador time is nothing short of amazing, if you thing how much F1 development there is on the Macca.

Regards

The the LFA NE time by Lexus is a claim ? The video and all otehr official infos are not enough ? Mercedes claims the SLS AMG GT to run the Ring in 7:30 min, an 8 second improvement. Is that true ?


I have nothing against any of the given times be it officially or rumored. I just have something against, when people compare different times and then find so to say "valid" arguments the show that the car they like is better or that its rival is worse.

Then there is a difference between a claimed time and a rumored time. I more believe in claimed times, like M4 E82 runs the Ring in ~7:40 min than rumored time like the MP4-12C that it runs the Ring in flat-out 7 min. Oh, is it because of that rumor I brought up that the 7:28 min is a disapointment? The 7:38 min of the 458 Italia is then even more, due the fact it is named "todays best supercar".

 

[Gianclaudio]

How do anyone outside Lexus know they were not putting 100 more hp, slick tires or running the counter clock a bit faster just to amaze the armchair race bigrade?
I insist, until there's no official governing entity checking every car and taking times, every time is a claim, manufacturers and magazine's

Regards

 

[330CIZHP]

God! That is so laughable. It does not even deserve an answer since it implies Lexus as a cheat without credibility. Please don't start that up yet again (with the LFA interior being the previous).

For one, LFA is putting down 571 PS (563 HP) specifically 117 HP/Liter already. It cannot go any higher than that naturally aspirated so your claim of 100 HP more is completely ridiculous.

Lexus never marketed LFA on lap times or 1/4 mile times. It was always on the merit of how driver oriented the car was, which is why it never came with high-grip or racing compound tires.

It was done in the middle of "driver experience" event with lots of owners and press journalists being present in the event. Chris Harris and several other journalists were doing test drives on the very same car and mentioned on their blog had actually driven and also seen the car when Akira Iida took the car for the record lap. Chris Harris broke the news of the 7:14 on his blog days before Lexus came out with a statement. It was on stock Potenza street tires. Iida has made clear himself several times that the car was nothing, but 100% stock. Chris Harris was so obsessed fighting with the people mocking it that only his blog from those days need to be seen to be believed.

The biggest thing is Saurma himself had mentioned the 7:14 in the supertest and also admitted that a much faster lap time is entirely possible and the only reason why he got only a 7:34 was because he did not have the standard prep time that he normally gets for every car for his lap in the LFA since the car had to be returned.

Alden Hajdzec and Sandor Van Ees on their debut lap in the LFA achieved 285 km/h on Dottinger Hohe uphill while Saurma got the same 284 km/h in his full attack lap time while Iida did 290 km/h top speed on the same segment.

Even the standard LFA lap time of 7:38 even on the flimsy tires was slower than Sascha Bert's lap time in exactly the same LFA, which was done with an editor sitting in the passenger seat and also for the full longer 20.8 km version of Nurburgring.

To be honest, the lap time of LFA NE being the same as an R8 GT is what defies reality considering a standard LFA in two head-to-head comparisons (Motor Trend, AMS Germany) on the same flimsy tires matched or beat the R8 GT lap times on Corsas.

If you don't want to accept it then by all means don't, but don't raise question that defy logic like that.

How do anyone outside Lexus know they were not putting 100 more hp, slick tires or running the counter clock a bit faster just to amaze the armchair race bigrade?
I insist, until there's no official governing entity checking every car and taking times, every time is a claim, manufacturers and magazine's

Regards

 

[Gianclaudio]

I'll answer you with Martin's one:

The only clear thing here is the usual bunch jumping to the LFA's defence like moths to a flame. Fact is, as far as Sport Auto tests go - the Aventador is spectacularly fast. And this is the only tangible point that's beyond repute.

I'm not claiming the LFA had 100 hp more, I was just giving an example. Even if english is not my mother language, I think that was pretty clear.
And I wasn't bitching the LFA itself, if you could take the time to read my previous posts, I'm just saying I don't believe in manufacturers claims, being Lexus, Mercedes or Pagani, as there's no one who can check if the cars specs match those off coming out of the dealer.

And don't even make me remember the LFA interior discussion where you were stating a LFA had a more special and artsy interior than a Pagani, LMAO.

 

[330CIZHP]

Yes, better not bring it up. It had absolutely nothing to do with being more or less special. There were several members arguing with you (I gave up and surrendered long before the thread was ended, if you remember) when you were the instigator claiming LFA had "tons of cheap plastic" in it. Read the thread again.

And don't even make me remember the LFA interior discussion where you were stating a LFA had a more special and artsy interior than a Pagani, LMAO.

 

[Guibo]

Factory times can never be compared with other factory times as to see which car is the fastest. Same driver is needed to have a fair comparison as possible (and for even more accurate meassurement it need to be driven the same day).
My opinion isnt changeable in this matter.

But even in same-day measuring (qualifying), we have seen margins of 1-2s between F1 teammates in what should be identically prepared cars, mere minutes apart. Teammates can also switch positions between Q1 and Q3. Just because Vettel sets the fastest qualifying time doesn't mean that Webber might not lap faster than him during the race, nor does it mean that Vettel will lap faster than Alonso in the Ferrari.

The SLS mentioned brings up an interesting point. Wasn't it mentioned in these forums that the car had a special ABS calibration? All of these cars are provided by the manufacturers. They are not plucked at random from the production line. So the question of whether they are all truly stock still remains. And then you have manufacturers that send a truck full of spares and crew members.

Some cars perform better with their traction systems on, while others won't perform anywhere near their limits without the systems fully off. Sport Auto tests don't account for this. Additionally, if Sport Auto merely uses the recommended tire pressures (which are recommendations for street use and not the ~22 minutes of sustained lapping in a Nordschleife supertest), then those pressures can rise dramatically beyond what the manufacturers have intended for track use (and what they use in their own timing).

I agree that using HvS is a good baseline (probably the best in the industry) for what a highly skilled driver might extract from a car in unfamiliar situations. I'm not talking about the track, as he surely knows that; whether he knows how the car will truly behave at its real 10/10ths limit is another thing entirely, and given only 1-2 flying laps there is simply no way for him to find this true limit.

 

[Gianclaudio]

Yes, better not bring it up. It had absolutely nothing to do with being more or less special. There were several members arguing with you (I gave up and surrendered long before the thread was ended, if you remember) when you were the instigator claiming LFA had "tons of cheap plastic" in it. Read the thread again.

"Several members"

LOL, it was Guibo (wow, surprise!). You didn't gave up, directly you didn't even answer

Still, enough off topic here, so good bye.

Regards!

 

[330CIZHP]

Wrong again. Deity is not Guibo, FWIW.

You don't remember the thread then at all in any shape or form since there were several other members and how it ended.

You claiming persistently LFA "has cheap and hard plastic everywhere" completely tarnished your credibility to begin with and I simply stopped replying to your posts because I simply did not have enough time to argue over something like that. I simply exited the thread many days before it ended. It has to be something within limits of reason.

"Several members"

LOL, it was Guibo (wow, surprise!). You didn't gave up, directly you didn't even answer

Still, enough off topic here, so good bye.

Regards!

 

[Gianclaudio]

Wrong again. Deity is not Guibo, FWIW.

You don't remember the thread then at all in any shape or form since there were several other members and how it ended.

LOL!!!! Really? And I am the one that doesn't remember the thread?

http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...-car-twice-the-price.44129/page-2#post-574108

You guys like to arguee for the sake or arguing

Good night!

 

[Guibo]

The Ferrari 458 Italia was on the same bad tires as the LFA, the Bridgestone Potenza S001, by the way both did 7:38 min by Sport Auto.

The supertested 458 was on "Michelin Pilot Sport K1," the K1 being a Ferrari-specific designation. According to Car & Driver's recent summer tire test, those early Pilot Sports were actually a variant of the Pilot Super Sport.
"Two years ago, Ferrari launched the 458 Italia a few months before Michelin released its Pilot Super Sport (PSS). Because Ferrari wanted the PSS for the 458 but Michelin didn't want to preempt its own release, some of the early 458s were delivered on 'Michelin Pilot Sport PS2' tires. But those PS2s were actually PSSs. It isn't hard to understand why Ferrari wanted the 'custom' PSSs for the 458."
The PSS went on to win the C&D tire test, posting dry lap times on par with some very aggressive tires that had warnings against cold-weather fracturing, and beating them handily in the wet.

You can see it in pictures of the yellow 458 that was on hand at the 2009 Frankfurt IAA unveiling of the 458, as well as in Ferrari's press release photos, like this:
http://www.netcarshow.com/ferrari/2011-458_italia/1600x1200/wallpaper_e1.htm

 

[DeDe]

The Ferrari 458 Italia was on the same bad tires as the LFA, the Bridgestone Potenza S001, by the way both did 7:38 min by Sport Auto. The Audi R8 GT was on Pirelli P Zero Corsa. There is no difference as you say, because both had stock tires, what was not the case of the M3 E92 that did 8:05 by Sport Auto. The new laptime of the 458 Italia is 7:28 min (not by Sport Auto), it is on the new Michelin Pilot Super Sport. What if the R8 GT also had Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires?

Laptimes must be done on stock tires. Unfortunately stock tires are not always the best, not bad, but not the best for doing one fastlap. Case of LFA and GT86 for example.

No, the 458 Italia stood on Michelin Pilot Sport K1 tyres (see the scan below). The 7.28 min time is still a claim from an unknown source.
Oh and the P Zero Corsa is much more hardcore than the Pilot Supersport, since the Corsa is a dry-oriented semi-slick.

http://s1244.photobucket.com/albums...w&current=supertest_-_ferrari_458_italia6.jpg