Sport Auto - Nordschleife laptimes

[Zafiro]

Factory times can never be compared with other factory times as to see which car is the fastest. Same driver is needed to have a fair comparison as possible (and for even more accurate meassurement it need to be driven the same day).
My opinion isnt changeable in this matter.

 

[Gianclaudio]

Do you guys believe in factory times? HAHAHAHAHA

 

[Levi68]

Factory times can never be compared with other factory times as to see which car is the fastest. Same driver is needed to have a fair comparison as possible (and for even more accurate meassurement it need to be driven the same day).
My opinion isnt changeable in this matter.

Wrong. All cars must be tested on the same day with stock tires by factory driver. What we want to know is the full potential of the car, not how fast the car can be in our hands, especially becasue we have different "hands" and some of us might be more familiar to FWD, others to RWD and others again to AWD.

 

[Zafiro]

Wrong. All cars must be tested on the same day with stock tires by factory driver. What we want to know is the full potential of the car, not how fast the car can be in our hands, especially becasue we have different "hands" and some of us might be more familiar to FWD, others to RWD and others again to AWD.

Wrong. We want to know how quicka car can go with the same driver. That's the only valid comparison we have when we want to know how fast a car can go compare to another.
I prefer an unbiased laptime over a factory time. Factory times are only about markeeting.

 

[Levi68]

Wrong. We want to know how quicka car can go with the same driver. That's the only valid comparison we have when we want to know how fast a car can go compare to another.
I prefer an unbiased laptime over a factory time. Factory times are only about markeeting.

The problem of factory times is that they can be wrong for marketing purpose, but factory drivers can make the fastest times, what mean reach the full potential of the car. You want one driver but that is unfair, because take for example HVS, he'll always be faster in a Porsche than in a Ferrari.
BMW gave the E82M an official time of 8:15 min and that is also the time of Sport Auto. But in fact it is faster. In this case for marketing purpose BMW decided to make it look slower than the E92M. The E92M has an official time of 8:05 min, but it had Michelin Pilot Sport Cup+ tires, whereas the time of the E82M was made with the normal tires of the E92M, Michelin Pilot Sport PS2. The time of the E92M with stock tires is 8:12 min, a 10 second improvement over the time of 8:22 min of the E46M. The time of the E92M on stock tires is from a brochure. The time of the E92M ZCP is below 8:00 min on new Michelin Pilot Super Sport that are now stock tires.

E46M on Michelin Pilot Sport PS1 in 8:22 min
E82M on Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 in 8:15 min
E92M on Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 in 8:12 min
E92M on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup + in 8:05 min
E92M ZCP on Michelin Pilot Super Sport under 8:00 min (no time officially announced)



All that, to say that numbers we need are factory ones, but proven and controlled by independants.

 

[Deckhook]

Wrong. We want to know how quicka car can go with the same driver. That's the only valid comparison we have when we want to know how fast a car can go compare to another.
I prefer an unbiased laptime over a factory time. Factory times are only about markeeting.

How is that an unbiased time with same driver, all the tells you how quick a car is with "that" driver but he might be quicker with one formate compared to another. Personally I reckon I would be quicker in an RS5 than my M3 yet someone else could be the opposite, which time should be used as the right one?

 

[Levi68]

+1

The official time of the Audi RS4 B7 is 8:09 min. But Frank Stippler did 7:58 min. The car was stock on Pirelli P Zero Corsa, the equivalent of sport tires on the M3 E92 that did 8:05 min. Again, Advevo did close to M3 CSL time, with his modded 1M. So what is needed is the driver that can get all the potential out of the car, not just a part.

 

[Gianclaudio]

The day one governing entity checks that the cars meets the same power and setup as factory suggested and then test the cars under same conditions, for dozen and dozen of laps, with many drivers and finally picks the best lap of each car, then the Nurburgring laps will be relevant for me.
I still believe more in Sport auto times than a manufacturer which we don't know if the cars running are the same you buy on a dealer or are specially prepared/modified/setup to run faster or even more, if their times are real or not just running the clock a bit faster to give material to the "mental masturbation" folks on the internet who like to arguee about their favorite car being 0,00002 second faster.

 

[Zafiro]

I'm working with markeeting myself and I know how important it is to please the crowd. I simply dont believe in factory times because I know how it easy it is manipulate a car for a single laptime. Sportauto is the one and only source I put my trust in. Not to be rude but only a fool take a factory time literally.
HvS is a professional driver and professional driver can drive anything fast. An amateur is just an amateur.

 

[martinbo]

I used to argue the same thing with Andreas (Just_me) years ago and I was in the same camp regarding factory times and maximum potential extraction using a works driver with masses of experience. I disagreed, I argued.

And I was wrong.

Read through some pages back; I made a post about making comparisons based on a more consistent frame of reference. Sport Auto and Horst von Saurma (he who is so pathetically slow around the Ring... pffff) give us the closest thing to a frame of reference for the Nordschleife yet.

Factory times are too easily engineered in this technologically enabled day and age of mass-telemetry and vehicle configurability.

The Super Test times are as representative as can be for off-the-shelf products.

 

[Zafiro]

I just cant stop laughing when somebody mention the 7.58 laptime for Rs4. I know how that rumour started thats why I can take it seriously.

 

[Levi68]

The LFA NE that did 7:14 min was not stock ? How is it when Porsche tested the GT-R they could not do the same laptime as Nissan ?

 

[Zafiro]

Levi, you ask some irrelevant questions. Factory time is worthless. If you prefer them please do so but to me it means nothing when I want to compare a laptime with another car.

 

[Levi68]

Levi, you ask some irrelevant questions. Factory time is worthless. If you prefer them please do so but to me it means nothing when I want to compare a laptime with another car.

So Tumbo is right when saying the R8 is better than the Italia and gives official Sport Auto times like these?

Nordschleife:
7.34 min – Audi R8 GT – 560 hp, 1577 kg
7.38 min – Ferrari 458 Italia – 570 hp, 1540 kg

I don't think. By the way, now the best 458 Italia time is 7:28 min on Michelin Pilot Super Sport.

Well, but for you, because this time was not achieved by Sport Auto, it is just BS and pure Ferrari marketing.


For Tumbo the 7:58 min time of the RS4 (B7) is real but for you BS. For you the time of 7:50 for the M5 (F10) is real but for Tumbo it is BS.

Judge by yourself.

 

[DeDe]

So Tumbo is right when saying the R8 is better than the Italia and gives official Sport Auto times like these?



I don't think. By the way, now the best 458 Italia time is 7:28 min on Michelin Pilot Super Sport.

Well, but for you, because this time was not achieved by Sport Auto, it is just BS and pure Ferrari marketing.


For Tumbo the 7:58 min time of the RS4 (B7) is real but for you BS. For you the time of 7:50 for the M5 (F10) is real but for Tumbo it is BS.

Judge by yourself.

All 3 times you posted are factory claims, so yes, they are irrelevant.

 

[Levi68]

All 3 times you posted are factory claims, so yes, they are irrelevant.

So is the 1M time of 8:15 min.

 

[Deckhook]

So Tumbo is right when saying the R8 is better than the Italia and gives official Sport Auto times like these?

All these Sport Auto times between the R8GT and 458 prove is that of that occasion and with this driver the R8 was quicker.... nothing least. That's the problem with one mag and one driver being the industry standard.

 

[DeDe]

All these Sport Auto times between the R8GT and 458 prove is that of that occasion and with this driver the R8 was quicker.... nothing least. That's the problem with one mag and one driver being the industry standard.

The R8 GT was quicker on P Zero Corsa semi-slicks. The 458 Italia did its 7.38 on regular Pilot Sports. Big difference.

 

[Deckhook]

^You are right the rubber choice does make a difference, as does the track temperature, the driver's familiarity with the car, etc, etc. This is the problem with lap times and using them as references, though when enough of them are gather together from multiple magazines and tracks you can build a picture as to how good a car might be.

 

[south]

The R8 GT was quicker on P Zero Corsa semi-slicks. The 458 Italia did its 7.38 on regular Pilot Sports. Big difference.

LOL, now that's something camp Audi surely doesn't want to hear.


Best regards,
south