REPORT: Toyota considering cooperation with Daimler on compact, full-size models

[Merc1]

Of course they can, and I'm sure they often do, but that isn't the point.

Competing car companies need to know what their competitors are working on before it hits the streets, that's the point of keeping tabs on your competitors skunk works.

Of course there is no proof of this, otherwise there would be lawsuits all over the place. Its really common sense. For example Mercedes debuted pre-safe for 2003, Lexus debuted it in 2004. Someone at Toyota found out about this either via Mercedes snooping or getting cozy with the supplier/co-developer in order for them to debut it just a year later. If they had waited until it hit the showroom they would have been years behind, not just one year.

M

 

[ZicZachZo]

I'm sure there is a lot of talk within the industry about what is coming out of each company. My mind just went to the extreme, imagining spies working within MB, with mini cameras etc. etc.

 

[EnI]

Are the new cars be badged "Lexus-Benz" ?

Lexus-Benz Class ASs
Lexus-Benz Class BLSh

 

[cawimmer430]

With Mercedes as a partner, Lexus could finally land some much needed clout with European buyers.


Ok, I am all for positive cooperation between two good carmakers but this is potentially flirting with danger.

Not that Lexus is any threat at the moment in Europe but why would you want to give a brand like Lexus a better foothold in Europe if you were Daimler? I wouldn't. I want to make life is difficult as possible for Lexus in Europe as I can. The advantage Lexus enjoys in the US are completely absent in Europe.

Mercedes is a dominant force in Europe and they have alway coexisted with BMW and now Audi. These brands compliment each other so well and there is always "immgration" between these brands when it comes to consumer choices. The last thing we need is a strong Lexus in Europe. Not that it will happen overnight as the Japanese have continually shown that they're slow to react to market trends in Europe (they missed the diesel boom etc.) and Lexus has continually failed to adapt to the European market. Their foothold in Europe is good enough, but they simply lack the products that appeal to Europeans.


I have no problem with Mercedes using Toyota platforms for the A- or B-Class, but anything more is probably not something I want to see happen.

And this talk about the next S-Class and LS being "developed together" is alarming. Why dilute the image of the S-Class by developing it with Lexus? The S-Class stands for something that the LS can never hope to match (heritage, history etc.). I realize money has to be saved wherever possible but this potential dilution of the S-Class name in the minds of Mercedes fans or other enthusiasts is dangerous in my opinion.

 

[Merc1]

Thank you! The whole idea is beyond stupid if we're talking about anything other than small FWD Benzes (A/B) and small engines (3, 4 cylinders) and I'd prefer if they don't cooperate on those things. Sharing development of the next S and LS is the stupidest thing I've ever read and nothing could be more dumb for Mercedes. Why do that when they already hold the advantage over Lexus? Let Toyota keep spending their money on reverse engineering Mercedes and let them figure it out the hard way. Why get into bed with the one company that if they had their way they'd put you (Mercedes) out of business? All this about how good it would be coming from the BMW fans is pure BS. You surely wouldn't see that if Toyota or Nissan (read: Infiniti) wanted to twin the 3-Series and G37 development.


M

 

[Mr Robert]

This is even worse than Peugeot and BMW teaming up on engines.

 

[bum-man]

This is even worse than Peugeot and BMW teaming up on engines.

How so? I would take a 4-cylinder Toyota engine over a 4-cylinder Peuk engine anyday.

 

[Mr Robert]

How so? I would take a 4-cylinder Toyota engine over a 4-cylinder Peuk engine anyday.

Because this is not limited to just engines! The Pug/BMW engine in my Cooper S does the work quite well, even if the general quality could have been better.

 

[Wolfgang]

Another cooperation partner may be Mitsubishi? Daimler subsidiary MDC Power already produces engines for them.

"Daimler subsidiary MDC Power produces 1.1, 1.3 and 1.5-liter CID three- and four-cylinder gasoline engines with a power range from 55 to 80 kW. The compact injection engines are fitted in Mitsubishi Colt for the European and the Japanese market, the Colt convertible as well as in the Mitsubishi Lancer (since January 2007)."

Here's a picture from inside the plant:

 

[coolraoul]

^ Dates from when Mercedes did own a stake in Mitsubishi. The smart Forfour and Mitsu Colt share platform and engines (diesel by MB, three-cylinder versions of the A/B-Class' four-pot, whereas the petrol ones were Mitsu units).

But the Forfour is no more, and Daimler get rid of the stake in Mitsu years ago.

So it's more a dying deal than an opportunity to cooperate...

 

[Wolfgang]

Here's a more recent three cylinder gasoline engine. It was shown last January at the Detroit Auto Show, in the BlueZERO E-CELL PLUS concept.

The three cylinder comes on once the BlueZERO runs out of juice from the battery, after about 60 miles. But there may also be another operation mode, in which it drives with three cylinders from the start, and then later switches to electric mode. For example driving cross country (3 cylinder gasoline powered, range greater than 300 miles) to an urban center (electric powered).

 

[Benzboi_inoz]

I can certainly sense notions of foreboding in any Toyota/Daimler alliance in terms of what it may do to Brand Perceptions of Mercedes - always vital from a marketing point of view.

However on engineering quality and financial resources grounds, they could scarcely do better.

Car buyers usually fall into two main camps.

There are those who buy a car as an 'appliance' to provide transport and get themselves and their family/friends/significant others where they wish to go in an independent manner. For that sort of buyer, quality, reliability, safety, fuel consumption, running costs and resale value all factor much more heavily into the purchase equation than notions of prestige or driving dynamics.

Conversely, the second group of buyers tend to put driving dynamics and feel, above the other aforementioned buying points, lack of which they will write off as 'character' or make other excuses for a lack in those areas - reliability for example, being happy to pay a premium to maintain their prestigious and luxury/performance automobile.

In reality, it is the first group that dominates the sales market by a large degree, and here Toyota know their buyers superbly well. A Toyota may be a dullard of a thing to drive, but for quality and reliability they consistently score the highest of any brand when it comes to being assessed by those in the know - qualified engineers. Indeed, on Autocar a senior Mercedes engineer was quoted a year or so back, as claiming that the then updated E Class was closing the gap to Toyota for quality, and they (Mercedes) felt that they could hopefully eventually match them (Toyota).

Putting aside the dullard driving dynamics, uninspiring styling etc, the quality is the best in the business, and of course that includes Lexus. So from an engineering point of view, an alliance with Toyota would not let Daimler down in the slightest, in fact it may improve them. Additionally, whilst they have been losing money like everyone else, there is little doubt that Toyota is still the most profitable car manufacturer in the world, and would have very large coffers of cash to invest in Daimler should they choose.

So all in all, whilst there are some seemingly unpalatable thoughts re some sort of 'merger' or whatever, from a pragmatic point of view, it could very well do Daimler a lot more good than harm - in fact it could help them survive. Nobody would like to see Daimler go bust, or be bought by some other financial concern, least of all me, so if a Toyota alliance/merger was to stave that scenario off, it'd most certainly get my vote.

Best Regards

John...

 

[HighestOfHigh]

Wow amazing!

Even though I think Mercedes-Benz is flawless and can do no wrong, I still think it would be beneficial for them to work with Toyota. Toyota (before the recession) is a strong company and they have excellent technology at their finger tips. The Prius is still an untouchable force in the automobile industry. If Benz wants to go into business selling these types of cars, why not learn from the master.

On the other hand, I believe Mercedes-Benz should keep their designers and engineers on hand and not let Toyota do all the work (especially in the design department). Only for compact models though....NOT full size. The S and E-class are perfect as is.