Report: Mercedes Benz to phase out V12 engine

[Merc1]

I can't see Mercedes without a V12. If Maybach and Aston are really teaming up they'll have to have a V12 so that means Mercedes will have one. They may have to keep refining the current one and giving it some new features, DI etc, but no V12 at all..I can't see it. The current AMG V12 won't be around much longer, in the "65" cars, but the standard "600" V12 will IMO.


M

 

[Gullwing]

I'm going to miss that silky-smooth V12.

We will see how smooth you think they are after owning one for two years. After the motor and transmission mounts go bad.

What Gullwing wants to say is that the first post-war Mercedes passenger car V12 debuted in the W140 S-Class in 1990. Prior to that the only V12-engine Mercedes ever produced was the DB-601 - 605 aircraft engine found in planes like the Messerschmitt BF-109 / 110 and Heinkel He-111 during World War II.

You forgot to add the V12s in the grand prix cars.

I've got an owner right now with one of those "awesome" V12 in the shop with a $4,500 repair, and he just had a $3,000 repair. And now his trade value on his 01 S600 with 75k miles is $9,000. Bye bye V12 and good ridance. So his repairs barely equate to the value of the car.

Five years down the road the V12s are a liability and dealers hate trading for them.

That is one of the main reasons why I would always take the V8 AMG S class over the V12 S class. It is so easy to rack up thousands in repairs on a V12.

 

[klier]

As already said in this thread: BMW will very soon introduce the new Twin Turbo V12.
This info would be off-topic if any other company but Mercedes was supposed to drop the V12. But, if BMW has a new state of the art V12, MB will 99.9999% follow. They will not tolerate BMW being alone there.
MB is not a brand that follows, but if the competition has something they don't have, they will simply develop it too. Period.

 

[Tarek]

As already said in this thread: BMW will very soon introduce the new Twin Turbo V12.
This info would be off-topic if any other company but Mercedes was supposed to drop the V12. But, if BMW has a new state of the art V12, MB will 99.9999% follow. They will not tolerate BMW being alone there.
MB is not a brand that follows, but if the competition has something they don't have, they will simply develop it too. Period.

I really like the new Klier

 

[cawimmer430]

We will see how smooth you think they are after owning one for two years. After the motor and transmission mounts go bad.

Is this a chronic problem or one that occurs with cars that have been massively abused?

You forgot to add the V12s in the grand prix cars.

True. But when we're talking about Mercedes passenger or civilian-market sedans, there was no V12 until the W140 and R129. The biggest and most powerful engines of the past found in Mercedes civilian-market cars were the 400-horsepower supercharged 7.7-l 8-cylinder inline found in a few 770s Großer Mercedes sedans for Nazi party members.

 

[Wunderkind]

Is this a chronic problem or one that occurs with cars that have been massively abused?

Not really, it's a problem with these V12 engines because they are heavy and they require a set of mounts every 3-4 years.

Oil leaks are also a problem with the current generation of Mercedes V12 and they do, as others have pointed out, cost an arm and a leg to rectify.

Under bonnet temperature is also a problem with all V12-equipped cars (both BMW and Mercedes). The size of the V12 engine leaves very little room for sufficient cooling. Heat-soak is a big problem. This is usually not an issue if the engine fan(s) do their job. But cars in Asia, the Middle East and Africa do run into the occasional problem of overheating because of a blown fuse or a faulty engine fan clutch that stop the fans from doing their jobs.

Also, don't be too pessimistic. I'm sure the V12 will be back on the agenda if customers demand it. The Russians and Chinese are V12 lovers. So if the numbers stack up, I'm sure they will be back. It was the same case in the mid-1990's. It seemed the days of supercars were over. How wrong were we then..........................

 

[Zafiro]

Aha -- remember this thread

http://www.germancarforum.com/pit-g...b-bmw-v12-engines.html?highlight=V12+mercedes

Well I'm not very surprised ......everything is changing very fast right now.

Touche!

 

[Gullwing]

Is this a chronic problem or one that occurs with cars that have been massively abused?

Abused and babied all V12s pretty much suffer from this. It might be the weight of the engine, but I do not know for sure.

Not really, it's a problem with these V12 engines because they are heavy and they require a set of mounts every 3-4 years.

Oil leaks are also a problem with the current generation of Mercedes V12 and they do, as others have pointed out, cost an arm and a leg to rectify.

Under bonnet temperature is also a problem with all V12-equipped cars (both BMW and Mercedes). The size of the V12 engine leaves very little room for sufficient cooling. Heat-soak is a big problem. This is usually not an issue if the engine fan(s) do their job. But cars in Asia, the Middle East and Africa do run into the occasional problem of overheating because of a blown fuse or a faulty engine fan clutch that stop the fans from doing their jobs.

I think the M137 had more oil leak issues then the M275. The oil cooler would leak, since it is in the valley of the engine it would leak down the back. Many people replaced the rear main seal several times before figuring out where the oil was actually coming from. To replace the oil cooler you had to remove both heads. The main oil leak problems with the M275 all had to do with the ABC system. AHHH yes the final straw in my employment.

Engine fans for the V12s were another issue. The fans are so powerful that if the fan was running when the vehicle was stopped it would shake the entire car. The early W220s had issues with the fuse to the fan blowing, there was a recall to install new wiring harness for the fan.

 

[justanthony]

Not sure if this has been posted but i thought it was 'interesting'




Mercedes-Benz, longtime stalwarts of the V12 engine, is considering lowering its preferred cylinder count by a third. While our first inclination is to assume that this change is being made to increase the fuel efficiency and lower the emissions of the overall Daimler line, the real reason that the bent-12 engine program is being dropped is simply because the block is too long. A V12 is, for all intents and purposes, the same length as an inline-six, and the German automaker's latest line of mainstream engines are all in a V-design, so its cars are no longer being designed with an engine compartment large enough to house such a lengthy engine. Fear not, power fans, as the company isn't abandoning high horsepower in general. The V12 program is apparently being shifted towards twin-turbo V8s, and the magic of forced-induction means there's no reason to assume that fewer cylinders will equal fewer ponies. Expect the moratorium on V12s to begin the next few years.


Mercedes will begin phasing out V12 engines - Autoblog

 

[sako97]

I heard rumors from MB Insiders that the 600 Series V12 engines will be replaced by a 5.0 Liter turbo V8 producing 580 to 600bhp and the 65 Series V12 engines will be replaced with a 5.0 Liter Twin Turbo V8 producing 700bhp with 1200 nm of torque. Both of these engines will be mated to Mercedes-Benz's new 8 speed transmisson which is currently being developed. The 65 replacement will have a heavily Reinforced 8 speed dual-clutch Transmisson.

 

[Wunderkind]

Yes the Honda Accord V6 can shut cylinders down when you don't "need" them, basically most of the time, unless full throttle, the dash will show you that it is running in ECO mode, meaning some cylinders are shut down. I don't know how effective that is in terms of economy, but that car feels sluggish (power-wise), not sure whether it's because of the system.

But what's wrong with not having a V12? technology moves on and if 8cylinders can do the job of 12, why not?

I'm told cylinder deactivation is more feasible with the latest generation lean-burn direct injection engine.

I'm sure they will produce V12 engines again when the economy recovers and customers demand their return. But I don't, for a second, believe that Mercedes is abandoning the latest V12 engine because it's 7cm too long to be installed into the CL or SL. Surely they would have taken into consideration the critical dimensions during the very initial design phase. Furthermore, new engines are designed to be smaller and lighter than the units they replace.

Gullwing, what is the problem with the current Mercedes 7-speed gearbox. My 2005 CLS350 was in the shop three times in the first 9 months of ownership before it was fixed (though downchange from second to third can still be a little rough). The dealer said at the time they installed a new software and an update kit. I reckon it was BS.

 

[LaArtist]

Latest from Mclaren P10

What the articles say is mostly true, Mercedes-AMG are planning to phase out thew V-12, but in it's place will come a V-10. This new engine will feature a twin-turbo set up in the regular Mercedes line-up, with a displacement of close to 4.5 liter and will produce 550 BHP, with a AMG version displacing 5.0 liters and producing close to 750 BHP thanks to larger turbo's. The Maybach actually doesn't need the huge amount of horsepower that it had to be world class, Mercedes desided to take that step to be higher up the food chain then Rolls-Royce with it's 6.75 liter V-12 producing 453 BHP, and Bentley's 6.75 liter twin-turbo V-8 just now producing 530 BHP. I mean the Maybach's engine in base form, displaces 5.5 liter and producing 550 BHP, with a 612 BHP version in the Maybach S line-up.

Project Romeo and Juilet/Alligator will not be affected by this change in fact it will allow Aston Martin and Lagonda a wider range of varients to there model lines, thanks to the different displacements of the V-8's and the V-10 going into a Lagonda. I mean think about it, you have the V8 Vantage /N400,Vantage RS, the DB9.DBS, the Vanquish, Vanquish S, I mean this would grow largely thaks to the differnt displcement and horsepower output of each engine. So don't think that will be a negative, but a posiitve, when you think of all types of new styling features of each Aston Martin varient, namely making Aston Martin more bespoke then before!!!!!!

On top of that it's looking like the V-12 could veruy well be seeing the end of the road as we speak, I mean Ferrari has switched the FX70/FX150 to a twin-turbo V-8, which could mean the next generation of cars could all be using a V-8.

PS
A V10 sounds interesting

 

[Tarek]

Not sure if this has been posted but i thought it was 'interesting'




Mercedes-Benz, longtime stalwarts of the V12 engine, is considering lowering its preferred cylinder count by a third. While our first inclination is to assume that this change is being made to increase the fuel efficiency and lower the emissions of the overall Daimler line, the real reason that the bent-12 engine program is being dropped is simply because the block is too long. A V12 is, for all intents and purposes, the same length as an inline-six, and the German automaker's latest line of mainstream engines are all in a V-design, so its cars are no longer being designed with an engine compartment large enough to house such a lengthy engine. Fear not, power fans, as the company isn't abandoning high horsepower in general. The V12 program is apparently being shifted towards twin-turbo V8s, and the magic of forced-induction means there's no reason to assume that fewer cylinders will equal fewer ponies. Expect the moratorium on V12s to begin the next few years.


Mercedes will begin phasing out V12 engines - Autoblog

That is just some saddening news to me,despite the power is gonna remain or even go higher a V12 is a V12 the ultimate in status and it's hard for me as a diehard MB fan see it go

 

[SKY]

Latest from Mclaren P10

What the articles say is mostly true, Mercedes-AMG are planning to phase out thew V-12, but in it's place will come a V-10. This new engine will feature a twin-turbo set up in the regular Mercedes line-up, with a displacement of close to 4.5 liter and will produce 550 BHP, with a AMG version displacing 5.0 liters and producing close to 750 BHP thanks to larger turbo's. The Maybach actually doesn't need the huge amount of horsepower that it had to be world class, Mercedes desided to take that step to be higher up the food chain then Rolls-Royce with it's 6.75 liter V-12 producing 453 BHP, and Bentley's 6.75 liter twin-turbo V-8 just now producing 530 BHP. I mean the Maybach's engine in base form, displaces 5.5 liter and producing 550 BHP, with a 612 BHP version in the Maybach S line-up.

Project Romeo and Juilet/Alligator will not be affected by this change in fact it will allow Aston Martin and Lagonda a wider range of varients to there model lines, thanks to the different displacements of the V-8's and the V-10 going into a Lagonda. I mean think about it, you have the V8 Vantage /N400,Vantage RS, the DB9.DBS, the Vanquish, Vanquish S, I mean this would grow largely thaks to the differnt displcement and horsepower output of each engine. So don't think that will be a negative, but a posiitve, when you think of all types of new styling features of each Aston Martin varient, namely making Aston Martin more bespoke then before!!!!!!

On top of that it's looking like the V-12 could veruy well be seeing the end of the road as we speak, I mean Ferrari has switched the FX70/FX150 to a twin-turbo V-8, which could mean the next generation of cars could all be using a V-8.

PS
A V10 sounds interesting

In the name of God, 750 hp coming from a twin turbo V10 AMG engine, this can´t be real. Imagine the next S-Class AMG with this sweety.

So BMW is the only one that will continue with a V12 on its line up. Audi is having a 5.0 TFSI V10 with 600 + hp for its new S8, so, again, Mercedes has the strongest engine.

 

[Tarek]

^MB will always have the strongest upper engines,always have been and always will,i think it's something to do with German pride as with Ferrari being the symbol of Italian pride

 

[Merc1]

I think we're getting ahead of ourselves to really thing that for one MB will just drop all V12 applications and secondly to think that MB is going to let BMW, Audi, Bentley, Rolls-Royce have 12 cylinder engines while they go without for Mercedes and Maybach. I'd say that won't happen. AMG may drop their V12s, but IMO Maybach and the "600"
Mercedes will have a V12, even if it has to shrink to 5.0L and be turbo'd and DI.


M

 

[GTA45E]

Aha -- remember this thread

http://www.germancarforum.com/pit-g...b-bmw-v12-engines.html?highlight=V12+mercedes

Well I'm not very surprised ......everything is changing very fast right now.

Wow, thanks Rob.. I also hate to see the V12 go!!
MB already said thay have a Bi-Turbo 5.5liter 544hp V8 in the wings. I guess this will be fitted to the new "S600" if that name is kept.. (it would be nice to see a name close to the 560SEL again, S580?) The new S500 name might return (again to the US) with that 4.6liter 435hp V8 mentioned.

If MB plans on dropping the V12, AMG will not produce them either.
The V10 should be for the upper class models like the Ocean Drive and Maybach, it`s only logical.

AMG will produce Bi-Turbo "Hammer" V8s. the big quesion is, will the replacement for the S65 get the new V8 or the 750+hp V10 reserved for the Maybach models. Seeing that the Maybach and S65 share the same engine now thay both shoud see the V10.




I`m sure you guys remember this report.


"Aren't Mercedes developing more and more powerful cars themselves?

They certainly are. What irks the AMG boys is the fact that Mercedes AG is also preparing a number of sophisticated turbocharged V8s with a displacement of 4.0, 4.6 and 5.5 litres - and power outputs of 355, 435 and 544bhp. The two companies appear to be on a collision course..."

------>>> http://www.germancarforum.com/mercedes-benz-lounge/24065-future-amg-turbocharging-rumours.html







--------------
I also believe BMW will not produce a V12.. I have read another report that thay have cancelled the project.

 

[SKY]

Wow, thanks Rob.. I also hate to see the V12 go!!
MB already said thay have a Bi-Turbo 5.5liter 544hp V8 in the wings. I guess this will be fitted to the new "S600" if that name is kept.. (it would be nice to see a name close to the 560SEL again, S580?) The new S500 name might return (again to the US) with that 4.6liter 435hp V8 mentioned.

If MB plans on dropping the V12, AMG will not produce them either.
The V10 should be for the upper class models like the Ocean Drive and Maybach, it`s only logical.

AMG will produce Bi-Turbo "Hammer" V8s. the big quesion is, will the replacement for the S65 get the new V8 or the 750+hp V10 reserved for the Maybach models. Seeing that the Maybach and S65 share the same engine now thay both shoud see the V10.




I`m sure you guys remember this report.


"Aren't Mercedes developing more and more powerful cars themselves?

They certainly are. What irks the AMG boys is the fact that Mercedes AG is also preparing a number of sophisticated turbocharged V8s with a displacement of 4.0, 4.6 and 5.5 litres - and power outputs of 355, 435 and 544bhp. The two companies appear to be on a collision course..."

------>>> http://www.germancarforum.com/mercedes-benz-lounge/24065-future-amg-turbocharging-rumours.html







--------------
I also believe BMW will not produce a V12.. I have read another report that thay have cancelled the project.

So the new 450, 550/550 and 550/600 engines are on the works. Fine. If only the article tall us when are they planned to be relised...

BMW cancelling the V12?, I think the 760 Li debut is planned for Geneva, so I would be very surprised if such a cancellation happens.

 

[GTA45E]

So the new 450, 550/550 and 550/600 engines are on the works. Fine. If only the article tall us when are they planned to be relise..

BMW cancelling the V12?, I think the 760 Li debut is planned for Geneva, so I would be very surprised if such a cancellation happens.

I`m really running short on time so I`m going to have to be very brief!
I highly these Bi-Turbo V8s will debut on the W222 2012-13 S-Class.
The current engines are in the middle of an update... power will increase
with the updates.

To answer your question about the 760, it would suprise me if BMW gives it the green light. BMW has really gone green..

These lux car companies will have to increase their fuel eco by 25-30%.. by 2012 or pay an even bigger fine..

sorry to be so brief!!

 

[Zafiro]

To answer your question about the 760, it would suprise me if BMW gives it the green light. BMW has really gone green..

A 760i indeed seem to be coming. Even our insider Scott has mentioned it. Rumours says its a twinturbo V12 with 544hp/800nm.. Yes BMW has gone green, thats why they are abandon N/A engines for Turbo engines.
4-cylinders Turbo engines are under development as well.
The new era BMW keep talking about = Turbo.