Quattroruote Club 4 Secondi 2011: this will be a fight !!!

[Guibo]

I've also aswered, but I'm waiting for an answer for you
599 GTB claimed (and usual times) 11.0s, tested @ 10.39s: manipulations
LP640-4 claimed (and usual times) 11.0s, tested @ 10.21s: no manipulations
why?

If you answered, show me where. Perhaps I missed it. Better yet, just answer now.
Who here is talking about claimed vs actual times? What we know about 599:

• F40 LM says non-stock ECU
• Factory 599 seems slower than customer 599s and F40 LM even said so in previous thread
• When C&D tested, Ferrari brought along a Euro-spec car for test numbers; according to their photographer, this car took some time to map; the car used for photos and the road test portion was prohibited by Ferrari from being tested for numbers

about drag, used tires means more rolling resistance, and the front also give greater drag. full stop
if you have a different theory, record them, and propose to major manufacturers, you will become a millionaire.

Drag can be reduced when the car is lowered. Ask yourself how much aero drag @ 1" ground clearance vs 10" ground clearance? You say there is no difference? Tell me again how Scuderia, despite wider tires, can have less total drag than standard F430.
What we know about LP670-4: More aero drag than LP640 as confirmed in Sport Auto wind tunnel. FULL STOP.

ok:, let's talk about Automobilismo:
QR LP640: 100-206.1 : 8.02s
Aut. 670SV: 100-206.7: 80.4s
same acc. despite -70 Kg, improved trasmission, +30ps claimed....
...darg? from 100 to 206?

100-200 is a very short speed increment and both LPs have a shift point very close to 100 and 200 kph. If one shifts earlier than the other...
That is why you need to look at the longer speed range, 400-1000m. Despite much more drag, the LP670 is faster by 0.3s and up by 1 kph. Perhaps that LP640 is making 670 PS. That's not more than 5% over.

Ferrari, about Scuderia developed, aimed at improving the downforce without compromising the Cx. This is reason, for example, the re-displacement of the exhaust: they're in the bumpers not just for beauty.... now you know it

That is one example of management of airflow. How do you know 100% for sure the GTO does not benefit from airflow management resulting in more downforce but the same drag as GTB? You talk about wider tires. How about you talk about these?:

"The 599 GTO eschews the rear-pillar winglets of the 599XX, but adopts a number of that car’s aerodynamic features including a new nose profile, a flat bottom and unique wheel doughnuts—discs positioned outside the brake rotors that direct hot air exiting the wheel arches to stay close to the vehicle’s body to further reduce drag."
2011 Ferrari 599 GTO - Auto Show - RoadandTrack.com

 

[emve]

Do you have more info on that car? Is that Brabus's own development car?

No, it is a customer car, probably one of the first Brabus tuned. It has apparently got exhaust, intercooler and ECU - 2012 CLS63 Brabus Exhaust video - MBWorld.org Forums

 

[Mafalda]

If you answered, show me where. Perhaps I missed it. Better yet, just answer now.
Who here is talking about claimed vs actual times? What we know about 599:

• F40 LM says non-stock ECU
• Factory 599 seems slower than customer 599s and F40 LM even said so in previous thread
• When C&D tested, Ferrari brought along a Euro-spec car for test numbers; according to their photographer, this car took some time to map; the car used for photos and the road test portion was prohibited by Ferrari from being tested for numbers

Drag can be reduced when the car is lowered. Ask yourself how much aero drag @ 1" ground clearance vs 10" ground clearance? You say there is no difference? Tell me again how Scuderia, despite wider tires, can have less total drag than standard F430.
What we know about LP670-4: More aero drag than LP640 as confirmed in Sport Auto wind tunnel. FULL STOP.


100-200 is a very short speed increment and both LPs have a shift point very close to 100 and 200 kph. If one shifts earlier than the other...
That is why you need to look at the longer speed range, 400-1000m. Despite much more drag, the LP670 is faster by 0.3s and up by 1 kph. Perhaps that LP640 is making 670 PS. That's not more than 5% over.


That is one example of management of airflow. How do you know 100% for sure the GTO does not benefit from airflow management resulting in more downforce but the same drag as GTB? You talk about wider tires. How about you talk about these?:

"The 599 GTO eschews the rear-pillar winglets of the 599XX, but adopts a number of that car’s aerodynamic features including a new nose profile, a flat bottom and unique wheel doughnuts—discs positioned outside the brake rotors that direct hot air exiting the wheel arches to stay close to the vehicle’s body to further reduce drag."
2011 Ferrari 599 GTO - Auto Show - RoadandTrack.com

- my answer was: "I do not know, but this does not mean the other mnfrs don't use superchip, and/or they'd call magazines to make some pressures. I don't pretend to be omniscient (not like you)"
still have not answered:
599 GTB claimed (and usual times) 11.0s, tested @ 10.39s: manipulations
LP640-4 claimed (and usual times) 11.0s, tested @ 10.21s: no manipulations
why?

- Sport Auto tested more drag about SV, but the wings could be different. Auto tested the SV @343 Kph despite a straight line rather short. obviously,@ 340 Kph, just +30ps cannot match agist "much more drag", and the SV'd be slower than the LP640 (look at the GT3 4.0, slower than 3.8, despite +50ps (+11%)

-Tyres: from GTB to GTO is not equal "from F430 to 430S"
GTO has +40mm in front and +10mm rear!

- Ferrari has certainly worked hard to not increase the GTO's aero-drag, but the higher rolling remains .
even so: QR did "just" 335 Kph, AMUS did 342 and 340 Kph with two customer GTOs (customer faster than offical... oooooooooooooooooooooppppppsssssssssss...). no possibility about "bad form"?
I don't say "GTOs has much more overall drag than GTB", if true, 342kph'd be not possible, but surely +40mm front-tyres don't give and hand.

 

[Guibo]

- my answer was: "I do not know, but this does not mean the other mnfrs don't use superchip, and/or they'd call magazines to make some pressures. I don't pretend to be omniscient (not like you)"
still have not answered:
599 GTB claimed (and usual times) 11.0s, tested @ 10.39s: manipulations
LP640-4 claimed (and usual times) 11.0s, tested @ 10.21s: no manipulations
why?

You don't have to pretend to be omniscient. You could take a look at the available information from mags and internet. If you do not know, then the answer is: NO, you cannot claim other manufacturers have been guilty of everything that Ferrari has done. If you say YES, then you should be prepared to show the examples, on every count. This is what is meant by the media manipulation; it goes far beyond the question of what the test cars themselves do (although what goes on with the test cars just might lead to everything else).
I already have answered: The question was never about tested vs claimed times. The question has been: What is being done to the 599 in those tests? We know those are being done based on media reports and admission from forum members about Ferrari's procedures. We also have tests results from customer 599s, and admission from a forum member here, that the customer cars aren't as fast as the factory's car. We don't have the same information for the LP640-4.

Sport Auto tested more drag about SV, but the wings could be different. Auto tested the SV @343 Kph despite a straight line rather short. obviously,@ 340 Kph, just +30ps cannot match agist "much more drag", and the SV'd be slower than the LP640 (look at the GT3 4.0, slower than 3.8, despite +50ps (+11%)

The wings look to be the same between the SVs.
What was the LP670's time to top speed? The LP640's? And at what revs. This would be some useful information.
How much slower is the 4.0 vs the 3.8, and what is the total drag on the 4.0?

-Tyres: from GTB to GTO is not equal "from F430 to 430S"
GTO has +40mm in front and +10mm rear!
- Ferrari has certainly worked hard to not increase the GTO's aero-drag, but the higher rolling remains .

Does F430S have wheel donuts too like the GTO?
You cannot conclude that there must be much more rolling resistance to offset the aero developments. One car uses a Pirelli tire that stuck to Evo's dyno rollers. Another uses a Michelin which has different compounds across its width. You cannot conclude definitively that one is much more than the other. Rolling resistance is not just about tire widths.

even so: QR did "just" 335 Kph, AMUS did 342 and 340 Kph with two customer GTOs (customer faster than offical... oooooooooooooooooooooppppppsssssssssss...). no possibility about "bad form"?

Source(s)?
Let's not forget that Car & Driver could find only one customer willing and able to lend his "stock" F50 for testing (the others were pressured by Ferrari not to participate). That car reached its top speed of 194 mph 140 rpm past redline. Do note that this is something F40 LM has mentioned that Ferrari sometimes does. And contrary to your opinion that I single out Ferrari and not others, note also that McLaren's factory F1 prototype that set the speed record also had its limiter bumped up in stages beyond the stock setting.

 

[Mr.Ree]

As someone observed on another forum, the problem with Ferrari is that they clearly said that the 599 GTO was faster than the 458 on track. So either they're liars of cheaters. Either way they're bullshitters.

 

[DeDe]

Source(s)?

AMS Nardo test 2010 - 340 and 342 km/h topspeed with two different GTOs.
There was two 2 private-599 GTB at Nardo few years ago with AMS, they reached 331 and 333 km/h.

 

[Mr.Ree]

I thought the GTO rev-limited at 208mph in top.

 

[F40 LeMans]

Let's not forget that Car & Driver could find only one customer willing and able to lend his "stock" F50 for testing (the others were pressured by Ferrari not to participate). That car reached its top speed of 194 mph 140 rpm past redline. Do note that this is something F40 LM has mentioned that Ferrari sometimes does.

At that period was different anyway regarding factory cars, for Ferrari. I can guarantee you that performance data we have for F40 and F50 are in line what a customer car can do. It is understandable after the analysis of articles we have and origin of the cars in question.

 

[Guibo]

AMS Nardo test 2010 - 340 and 342 km/h topspeed with two different GTOs.
There was two 2 private-599 GTB at Nardo few years ago with AMS, they reached 331 and 333 km/h.

Link? Article?
EDIT: Nevermind. Found the articles (split speeds at 100, 200 and 300 not available).


And I am not talking about F40; I have already heard that when Ferrari made modifications for the US market, the customer cars can end up making more power than before.

 

[F40 LeMans]

I have already heard that when Ferrari made modifications for the US market, the customer cars can end up making more power than before.

Wich car or period are you referring?

 

[Guibo]

F40

 

[F40 LeMans]

F40

But, the point of the US F40 much powerful than the Euro version were just words. The Euro no cats version was much faster.

The customer car tested by Fast Lane was faster (by 1s in 60-130) than the US car tested by C&D, being also tested with driver and passenger (about the same weight of the US version).

I have a Vbox data of the US customer car. 100-220 km/h no better than 10.1s. The Euro version was able "around" 9s.

Behind my accurate search, talking with factory informed people also, 478 PS were just claimed. The catalytic engines were around 500 PS, while "over" 500 PS for the engines without cats.

Anyway this is not the thread for this point. PM me if you want much more info about this.

 

[Guibo]

But, the point of the US F40 much powerful than the Euro version were just words. The Euro no cats version was much faster.

The customer car tested by Fast Lane was faster (1s in 60-130) than the US car tested by C&D also being tested with driver and passenger (about the same weight of the US version).

I have a Vbox data of the US customer car. 100-220 km/h no better than 10.1s. The Euro version was able "around" 9s.

Behind my accurate reserch, talking with informed people, 478 PS were just claimed. The catalytic engines were around 500 PS, while "over" 500 PS for the engines without cats.

I did not say anything about speed, or US with cats vs Euro w/o cats (Fast Lane car is without cats?). I was talking about power. US-spec Ferraris (and other cars) used to be quite a bit heavier than their European counterparts, something which was more normalized later on. Perhaps you could post up that whole C&D article.

 

[F40 LeMans]

Perhaps you could post up that whole C&D article.

Unfortunately I have only this.


And yes, Fast Lane's car was without cats
here the article
http://www.germancarforum.com/scans...ast-lane-1989-f40-959-lister-7-litre-mk3.html

 

[Mafalda]

video

 

[DeDe]

GT3: sport on, esc off, attention with throttle

That's interesting - according to Sport Auto there's a launch control in the RS 4.0 (and it worked perfectly at their 0-300-0 km/h event)...

 

[Mafalda]

@ Guibo
what does the F50? just unleashing yet another brawl.
I saw a lot of testing of C & D with low top-speeds
however, "just" 194mph prove manipulations? perfect: GT-R MY09... "just" 191mph (307 Kph)

 

[Mafalda]

That's interesting - according to Sport Auto there's a launch control in the RS 4.0 (and it worked perfectly at their 0-300-0 km/h event)...

... I don't know
p.s.
does it visible for all, or just logged?

 

[Mr.Ree]

video

 

[Mafalda]

Interesting that he managed a perfect drift in the McLaren. Watch and learn Tiff.

even so, every preproductions-units seems all different.
this units seems ok. no mention about "what's wrong", trouble etc (finally)