Quattroruote Club 4 Secondi 2011: this will be a fight !!!

[F40 LeMans]

Again with the media manipulation paranoia?
Nobody here ever said Ferrari manipulates every test. Though we might expect the GTO to be much faster considering the power and reduced weight. What we don't know, pending a supertest, is the effect on drag of GTO, which claims more downforce than the GTB. In cases of customer Ferrari vs press/factory Ferrari, we should expect close to identical levels of drag/downforce.

With regard to the McLaren, it's quite possible the MP4-12C sent is very strong. The key will be: How does it compare to a customer McLaren? Will McLaren intervene if a customer car is used? These are questions yet to be answered. I think if you want to claim McLaren have been manipulating media results, you might be right too.

No paranoia. I have nothing to criticize about what you wrote. It was just what was coming in mind looking the results. It seems Ferrari sending regular car while adopting the same old Ferrari mode for the other in respect of the declaration engine figures. This should be not a 700hp GTO. We will look, but, at the moment Lambo and Mecca seems to have strong engines. The Lambo for you?

PS. the GTO drag is quite possible to be little increased, but, looking the numbers, weight, gearbox, the engine it seems to be close to the old 655 hp engine unit tested. Expecially between low speed figures.

 

[Mr.Ree]

Again with the media manipulation paranoia?
I think if you want to claim McLaren have been manipulating media results, you might be right too.

Pffft. That's why they're all consistent.

Can anyone actually translate that paragraph and confirm my interpretation?

 

[Mr.Ree]

Looks like the LP700 set a new record on Vairano (1:13.86) with the MP4 less than a second behind.

 

[F40 LeMans]

Looks like the LP700 set a new record on Vairano (1:13.86) with the MP4 less than a second behind.

Yes, 1.13.860 was made by the Aventador and the Macca close to 1 sec later.

 

[Guibo]

This should be not a 700hp GTO. We will look, but, at the moment Lambo and Mecca seems to have strong engines. The Lambo for you?
PS. the GTO drag is quite possible to be little increased, but, looking the numbers, weight, gearbox, the engine it seems to be close to the old 670 hp engine unit tested. Expecially between low speed figures.

I'm not sure there are enough figures yet for the Lambo. This one is 12 kph faster than the LP670 tested by Auto in 0-1km. Is that too fast? I don't know, it could be right considering faster shifts, more power, no giant fixed rear wing. As well, it would be good to have a customer car to compare, like MT's LP560-4 which pretty much matched QR result even with the window broken open.
This GTO is 0.5s faster in 100-200 than the GTB, so that's already a good improvement in even the low speed range, but without knowing the effect of drag, we can't say much about 400m-1000m where the GTO is only .2s faster. With 0-60 in 1.8s for the old car and 2.0s for the GTO, the traction condition seemed better for the old one.

 

[Mr.Ree]

I think the Aventador has more power than claimed, which is fairly normal for LP-Lambos. I put it at about 730-750hp based on weight (AMuS - 1831kg), AWD losses and slightly slower (than DCT) transmission.

Looking at the data I'd observe that the cars were roughly the same in bends apart from (8) where the MP4 and LP700-4 either used a different technique or there was driver error. On the straights, the 12C and LP700-4 were closely matched on the straight that followed the long sweeper but in the straights that followed 2nd gear turns the LP700s AWD allowed it to put down the power earlier giving it the same advanatge that the LP570 had over the 458 when they were tested last summer.

It's also apparent, once again, that there's very little difference between the 599's MPSS and the Corsa of the McLaren and Lambo or the MPSC of the Porsche in the corners, either in speed or g.

We know that MPSSs give about 1s over PS2s and PZero Corsas give about 1s over PZeros. To date I've seen no empirical evidence that a Corsa/MPSC would give the claimed 1s advantage over MPSSs that some people keep pushing.

 

[F40 LeMans]

I think the Aventador has more power than claimed, which is fairly normal for LP-Lambos. I put it at about 730-750hp based on weight (AMuS - 1831kg), AWD losses and slightly slower (than DCT) transmission.

I agree with you for more power than claimed. But 730 hp or something should be enough.
For the GTO 1/2 sec in the 100-200 km/h faster than the GTB could be due just to the weight saved and a faster gearbox setting, and not dependent by exclusively more power.

 

[Mr.Ree]

Vairano :
Aventador : 1:13,860
MP4-12C : 1:14,815
599 GTO : 1,16,087
911 GT3 RS 4.Slow : 1:16,389

 

[F40 LeMans]

Mr. Cannizzo talking about the aerodynamic innovation of the GTO. He is satisfied about their job. To double the downforce without drag penalize.

Video Cannizzo

This could be a point to justify something regarding the engine power of this GTO with the old 655 hp unit tested.

 

[Mafalda]

add @ post #2 laptime and full review!

Vairano Handling:
1.13:860 - 124.78 Kph - Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4 NEW LAP RECORD
1.14:815 - 123.18 kph - McLaren MP4-12C
1.16:087 - 121.12 Kph - Ferrari 599 GTO
1.16:389 - 120.65 Kph - Porsche 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0 500ps

 

[Guibo]

I agree with you for more power than claimed. But 730 hp or something should be enough.
For the GTO 1/2 sec in the 100-200 km/h faster than the GTB could be due just to the weight saved and a faster gearbox setting, and not dependent by exclusively more power.

I don't think you can conclude anything from this. With 50 more PS, faster shifts, and less weight, I would think the acceleration should be much faster than just .2s in the 400-1000m if indeed drag is not a factor. Perhaps this GTO is close to spec, and maybe the old GTB was actually with 670 PS (which would put it 8% over spec). It's possible and you don't know to the contrary. All that I need to know is that you yourself said the old tested GTB was with ECU modifications not produced in customer cars at the time. I am fine with +8% over. I am fine with +10% over, if customer cars are likewise +10% over spec. If there is no difference between customer and factory car, then Ferrari should feel confident to "allow" a customer car to be compared with others with no reservations.

It's also a little strange to see lap time improve by only .6s second compared to the old 599. Was that GTB on P Zero "the Hero" tire? Would have expected more considering Ferrari's results on Fiorano. GTO has better power/wt, better downforce, probably better tires in Pilot Super Sport. Yet the differences looks like it could be the same car in just different conditions.

 

[Mr.Ree]

GTO is heavier than it claims. Nearer 1680-1700kg IIRC. A lot of the previous times were recorded in summer as opposed to autumn so that could account for some difference.

A lot of 599 GTBs chucked out nearer 650hp and 500lbft on dynos, so there's probably just 80-100kg of weight in it. I have to say that at first I was overwhelmed by the 599 GTO but it kind of looks like it's just a 599 'S Pack' now, not really deserving of the hallowed GTO badge.

 

[Mafalda]

I don't think you can conclude anything from this. With 50 more PS, faster shifts, and less weight, I would think the acceleration should be much faster than just .2s in the 400-1000m if indeed drag is not a factor. Perhaps this GTO is close to spec, and maybe the old GTB was actually with 670 PS (which would put it 8% over spec). It's possible and you don't know to the contrary. All that I need to know is that you yourself said the old tested GTB was with ECU modifications not produced in customer cars at the time. I am fine with +8% over. I am fine with +10% over, if customer cars are likewise +10% over spec. If there is no difference between customer and factory car, then Ferrari should feel confident to "allow" a customer car to be compared with others with no reservations.

It's also a little strange to see lap time improve by only .6s second compared to the old 599. Was that GTB on P Zero "the Hero" tire? Would have expected more considering Ferrari's results on Fiorano. GTO has better power/wt, better downforce, probably better tires in Pilot Super Sport. Yet the differences looks like it could be the same car in just different conditions.

old 599 GTB had surely an ECU... but the point here is everytime the same:
Ferrari: dirty ECU
others mnfs: good form and weather

about hotlap: QR explains clearly how the GTO is not easy. very hard to interpretate and few laps = bad results

Vairano (as like as all the tracks) is full of strange results:
- LP560 coupé with pzero corsa just 0.6s (the same, I hope, 0.6s...) faster than LP560 spyder with PZero rosso
- M3 4 doors 0.8s faster than M3 coupé (and much more faster on straight)
- Jaguar XKR Convertible 510hp 0.2s faster than Jaguar XKR-S 550ps and 0.5s faster than Jaguar XKR coupé 510hp
...manipulations, or "good form and weather"?

 

[F40 LeMans]

I don't think you can conclude anything from this. With 50 more PS, faster shifts, and less weight, I would think the acceleration should be much faster than just .2s in the 400-1000m if indeed drag is not a factor. Perhaps this GTO is close to spec, and maybe the old GTB was actually with 670 PS (which would put it 8% over spec). It's possible and you don't know to the contrary. All that I need to know is that you yourself said the old tested GTB was with ECU modifications not produced in customer cars at the time. I am fine with +8% over. I am fine with +10% over, if customer cars are likewise +10% over spec. If there is no difference between customer and factory car, then Ferrari should feel confident to "allow" a customer car to be compared with others with no reservations.

With

I agree with you for more power than claimed. But 730 hp or something should be enough.

I was talking about the Lambo, here in the 1st phrase. You are answered me referring to the GTO. Where are you GoInG? I'm the 1st to agree that "perhaps this GTO is close/or in to spec".

infact I said in the 2nd phrase

For the GTO 1/2 sec in the 100-200 km/h faster than the GTB could be due just to the weight saved and a faster gearbox setting, and "not dependent by exclusively more power"

The old GTB was a 655 PS car as I said long time ago. This info was gently passed me by a person that work close/inside the factory. He doesn't said me about a further power up-grade. He said me that the 599 GTB tested was a pre production car with development ECU rated at 655 PS. They can work a little bit regarding the torque, the limiter, and anything else. He doesnt' said me they may have more power, if it could be possible, he would be said. He said just the engine was powerful, talking about 655 PS unit.

For me, this test is a proof that the old GTB was not faster than this "GTO close/in to spec". I can conclude with this, imho. And you agree with it. Numbers also are in agreement. You can't be sure the old GTB was "really" a 670 PS car as you continue to claim. I would also like to know how you can justify 670 ps claimed by you compared to 655 claimed by a person informed of the facts. I hope not with imagination if he said me as written above. Working to the torque or the limiter does not means necessary increased power. It means a little stronger middle range engine or much revs for the last top gear, also. I prefer believe to the person I know, that he was tied directly at the point being him an employee of the factory. You also agree that the difference is minimum, just .2s in the 400-1000m where the GTO is the fastest.

 

[GZ4M]

Do you know the tyres of Lambo and Mclaren?

 

[Mafalda]

Do you know the tyres of Lambo and Mclaren?

no mention about Lambo, Ferrari and MP4.
GT3 RS of course with Pilot SC

 

[Mr.Ree]

I know that the Lambo has the same tyre options as the MP4 (PZero or PZero Corsa), so I'm guessing they both used Corsas. GTO uses MPSS same as 458.

I think this test demonstrates that the MPSS K1 shows no discernible disadvantage in bends, neither in terms of corner speed nor g, and shows no significant reduction in braking performance. Whilst it may be nice to believe this is down to some kind of Ferrari chassis magic, I think the whole idea that an MPSC/Corsa will yield a second advantage over an MPSS K1 is faux logic. There continues to be no empirical evidence for it and plenty to suggest the contrary. It strikes me that, if it were the case, Ferrari would offer a Corsa/MPSC option.

 

[Guibo]

With I was talking about the Lambo, here in the 1st phrase. You are answered me referring to the GTO. Where are you GoInG? I'm the 1st to agree that "perhaps this GTO is close/or in to spec".

I am not even talking about that part. I was referring to the performance numbers. Question is more like Where are you GoInG? I did not bring up "media manipulations." You did. And if you recall, that goes beyond the performances of test cars in question.

The old GTB was a 655 PS car as I said long time ago. This info was gently passed me by a person that work close/inside the factory. For me, this test is a proof that the old GTB was not faster than this "GTO close/in to spec". I can conclude with this, imho. And you agree with it. Numbers also are in agreement. You can't be sure the old GTB was "really" a 670 PS car as you continue to claim.

Did you honestly expect someone working close to or in the factory to openly admit, "Yes, the engines are 8% or more over?" Get real now.
I never said I was sure. I said it's a possibility. Just as you must surely agree it's a possibility that that the old GTB might have had more power than 655 PS. Think about it:

• You agree this GTO is close to 670 PS.
• GTO is ~100kg lighter, with faster transmission, and +15 PS
• Yet can only gain .2s in 400-1000m.

Is it not possible that the marginally faster speed of the GTO is due to the weight difference and faster transmission (ie, engine outputs were the same)?

I know you will probably answer it is absolutely 100% impossible on the basis of what your Ferrari informant said. If that is so, then there nothing left to discuss. For you, those working close/inside factory will always be right, no matter what the data might suggest.

What matters is what the customer cars do, and Ferrari's reaction to a customer car being used is enlightening to say the least. From this test, you cannot conclude much beyond what we have agreed to.

 

[Guibo]

old 599 GTB had surely an ECU... but the point here is everytime the same:
Ferrari: dirty ECU
others mnfs: good form and weather

about hotlap: QR explains clearly how the GTO is not easy. very hard to interpretate and few laps = bad results

Vairano (as like as all the tracks) is full of strange results:
- LP560 coupé with pzero corsa just 0.6s (the same, I hope, 0.6s...) faster than LP560 spyder with PZero rosso
- M3 4 doors 0.8s faster than M3 coupé (and much more faster on straight)
- Jaguar XKR Convertible 510hp 0.2s faster than Jaguar XKR-S 550ps and 0.5s faster than Jaguar XKR coupé 510hp
...manipulations, or "good form and weather"?

Weather is a possibility but seemed not to be an issue for the 12C and Aventador on the same day. McLaren is up on the 458 and Aventador is up on the LP570-4. Those cars you list don't have as drastic a change as Ferrari claims for the GTO: +50 hp, -100kg, 2x's more downforce, revised 2nd-generation MR suspension, different wheel sizes, transmission, F1-trac and stability electronics honed as like the 599XX, etc.
As I said, I'm already allowing at least 0.6s difference for the weather. Perhaps that is the crucial matter in the GTO's lap time at Fiorano (2.5s), though you would think they would try enough times to get a representative lap.
I am not the one claiming a non-standard ECU. That was brought to my attention by someone else.

 

[Mr.Ree]

Both the GT3 and the GTO times look slow but this is an Autumn test. Maybe the lower temps impeded grip (and traction for the RWD cars).