Hot! Porsche: What's Next
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Big egg on wheels.
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Any specific characteristics about petrol engines? the sound? the laggy response? the nvh? the narrow torque band that necessitates multiple gears and shifting? All valid aspects that adds texture to the driving experience we have been conditioned to. No arguments there. I will miss it too. But these are really limitations that can be added back to an EV, like adding grainy effects to a high resolution image or noise to a lossless audio track. Yes, you could say that is all fake and make a stand on the purity hill. And honestly, I have one leg on that hill but it feels more and more like a fool's errand these days.
As I wrote somewhere else - I drove Ioniq 5n and Macan e 4S recently. Both impressed me to no end for it's handling and dynamics (and in the case of 5n, also how well it can imitate the driving experience of an ICE car). And they are both ~2.3T crossovers. I can imagine what a compelling package the same underlying tech would be in a 500kg lighter sports car. I do hope Porsche does something like the Hyundai's eShift on the Boxster/Cayman. And now imagine, they use the sound track from a CGT!
ps. I get the general EV limitations around charging - limited charging infra, charging time etc, but I am guessing that is not what you are really getting at here.
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You are correct Sunny. For me, it about the driving experience. Even without a manual, PDK is very engaging as well. If the EV provided a more involving experience, I could be sold I suppose. Old dog and new tricks is definitely in play, however. The depreciation issue is another subject as well to consider.
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Probably behind a paywall, so I am just going to copy the whole story here for you guys:
Why Porsche Is No Longer a ‘Premium’ Sports Car in China
The Xiaomi SU7 electric vehicle at the Beijing auto show in 2024.Credit...Gilles Sabrié for The New York Times
By Melissa Eddy
Reporting from Berlin
Published Feb. 17, 2025
Updated Feb. 19, 2025
After decades of dominating China’s market for high-performance cars with precision engineering, German automakers are losing out to Chinese rivals that have shifted the definition of a high-end car to one that is electric, smart and affordable.
Many new Chinese vehicles resemble their German rivals, like the wildly popular Xiaomi SU7, which mimics Porsche’s Taycan. The SU7 rivals the Taycan in power and braking, but it also includes integrated artificial intelligence that can, for instance, help with parking and greet drivers with their favorite song. The cherry on top: It sells for roughly half the price of a Taycan.
As a result, the German automakers that for decades commanded China’s premium car market are now seeing their sales dwindle, while Xiaomi — a leading Chinese smartphone manufacturer — last year sold more than 100,000 models of the SU7.
Among the hardest hit has been Porsche, which reported last month that its deliveries in China plunged 28 percent in 2024. Although Porsche’s sales were up in every other region around the world, the decline in China was significant enough to pull down its global deliveries for the year by 3 percent.
For years, German automakers relied on the Chinese market to make up for weaker demand elsewhere, leading them to ignore deeper structural problems at home. Chief among them was a reluctance to adopt the technology that has come to define driving in China: electric vehicles equipped with sophisticated software and, increasingly, artificial intelligence.
Xiaomi has a car dealership in an expensive shopping mall in Beijing. One of China’s leading smartphone makers, the company has made inroads in electric vehicles.Credit...Keith Bradsher/The New York Times
“The German, but also the American and the Japanese-Korean, established Western manufacturers have greatly underestimated the development dynamics of the Chinese manufacturers, namely in the important fields of electro-mobility and software-defined vehicles,” said Stefan Bratzel, director of the Center for Automotive Management in Bergisch Gladbach, Germany.
Market experts said advances in software and features such as automated driving and remote control had become standard in Chinese electric cars, pressuring European automakers used to cashing in on their brand names to step up their game.
“I think Chinese consumers right now are ready to accept that Chinese companies can produce cars that are considered as premium to them,” said Gary Ng, an economist with Natixis Corporate & Investment Banking.
This month, Porsche announced that it would part ways with its finance chief and a top sales executive, both of whom had come under pressure for Porsche’s poor performance, including in China.
Adding to the pressure, President Trump has directed his advisers to devise new tariff levels for America’s trading partners, including the European Union. This could hurt Porsche, which, unlike BMW, Mercedes-Benz or other Volkswagen brands, supplies its U.S. market only with exports from Germany.
A Xiaomi SU7 at the Beijing Auto Show last year.Credit...Gilles Sabrié for The New York Times
Last week, Porsche said it would cut up to 1,900 jobs in Germany over the coming years, amid a decline in global demand. Sales of the electric Taycan dropped by nearly half last year, to 20,836 deliveries, and sales of the new Panamera, a hybrid model, declined 13 percent last year, in part because Chinese buyers did not show as much interest as expected.
The extent of Porsche’s problem is reflected in car buyers like Seaky He, a social media content creator who lives in Changsha in China’s central Hunan Province. In 2017, she bought her first car, a bright red Mercedes-Benz CLA coupe. But last year, she decided to trade it in for a Xiaomi SU7.
Xiaomi has loaded the SU7 with features like automatic parking and remotely activated temperature control, which are exactly what Ms. He said she, and other young Chinese drivers, wanted from a car.
“In choosing my new car, I didn’t even consider buying another German vehicle,” Ms. He said.
The SU7 is not yet available for export, but a few models have reached the United States. James D. Farley Jr., the chief executive of Ford Motor, said he had one shipped from Shanghai to Chicago to drive for six months and “didn’t want to give it up.”
Xiaomi has also been testing pared-down versions its SU7 Ultra, which will be released in China in March, on Germany’s storied racetrack, the Nürburgring. In October, the car set a record for the “fastest four-door sedan,” and industry media and car fans cheered the news, excited that the SU7 had beaten Porsche’s Taycan by 20 seconds.
A Porsche Macan crossover in Guangzhou, China.Credit...Keith Bradsher/The New York Times
Racetrack officials pointed out, however, that the times were not comparable because the Chinese car was a preliminary version competing in an essentially open category, while the Taycan was a showroom-ready model and ran in a highly regulated category. Regardless, the message was unmistakable.
“As German carmakers, we have to be at least as much or more innovative as we are more expensive,” Mr. Bratzel said. “And that has gradually been lost, because Chinese carmakers are now just as innovative, and some are even more innovative.”
Keith Bradsher contributed reporting from Beijing. Li You contributed research from Shanghai.
Why Porsche Is No Longer a ‘Premium’ Sports Car in China
The Xiaomi SU7 electric vehicle at the Beijing auto show in 2024.Credit...Gilles Sabrié for The New York Times
By Melissa Eddy
Reporting from Berlin
Published Feb. 17, 2025
Updated Feb. 19, 2025
After decades of dominating China’s market for high-performance cars with precision engineering, German automakers are losing out to Chinese rivals that have shifted the definition of a high-end car to one that is electric, smart and affordable.
Many new Chinese vehicles resemble their German rivals, like the wildly popular Xiaomi SU7, which mimics Porsche’s Taycan. The SU7 rivals the Taycan in power and braking, but it also includes integrated artificial intelligence that can, for instance, help with parking and greet drivers with their favorite song. The cherry on top: It sells for roughly half the price of a Taycan.
As a result, the German automakers that for decades commanded China’s premium car market are now seeing their sales dwindle, while Xiaomi — a leading Chinese smartphone manufacturer — last year sold more than 100,000 models of the SU7.
Among the hardest hit has been Porsche, which reported last month that its deliveries in China plunged 28 percent in 2024. Although Porsche’s sales were up in every other region around the world, the decline in China was significant enough to pull down its global deliveries for the year by 3 percent.
For years, German automakers relied on the Chinese market to make up for weaker demand elsewhere, leading them to ignore deeper structural problems at home. Chief among them was a reluctance to adopt the technology that has come to define driving in China: electric vehicles equipped with sophisticated software and, increasingly, artificial intelligence.
Xiaomi has a car dealership in an expensive shopping mall in Beijing. One of China’s leading smartphone makers, the company has made inroads in electric vehicles.Credit...Keith Bradsher/The New York Times
“The German, but also the American and the Japanese-Korean, established Western manufacturers have greatly underestimated the development dynamics of the Chinese manufacturers, namely in the important fields of electro-mobility and software-defined vehicles,” said Stefan Bratzel, director of the Center for Automotive Management in Bergisch Gladbach, Germany.
Market experts said advances in software and features such as automated driving and remote control had become standard in Chinese electric cars, pressuring European automakers used to cashing in on their brand names to step up their game.
“I think Chinese consumers right now are ready to accept that Chinese companies can produce cars that are considered as premium to them,” said Gary Ng, an economist with Natixis Corporate & Investment Banking.
This month, Porsche announced that it would part ways with its finance chief and a top sales executive, both of whom had come under pressure for Porsche’s poor performance, including in China.
Adding to the pressure, President Trump has directed his advisers to devise new tariff levels for America’s trading partners, including the European Union. This could hurt Porsche, which, unlike BMW, Mercedes-Benz or other Volkswagen brands, supplies its U.S. market only with exports from Germany.
A Xiaomi SU7 at the Beijing Auto Show last year.Credit...Gilles Sabrié for The New York Times
Last week, Porsche said it would cut up to 1,900 jobs in Germany over the coming years, amid a decline in global demand. Sales of the electric Taycan dropped by nearly half last year, to 20,836 deliveries, and sales of the new Panamera, a hybrid model, declined 13 percent last year, in part because Chinese buyers did not show as much interest as expected.
The extent of Porsche’s problem is reflected in car buyers like Seaky He, a social media content creator who lives in Changsha in China’s central Hunan Province. In 2017, she bought her first car, a bright red Mercedes-Benz CLA coupe. But last year, she decided to trade it in for a Xiaomi SU7.
Xiaomi has loaded the SU7 with features like automatic parking and remotely activated temperature control, which are exactly what Ms. He said she, and other young Chinese drivers, wanted from a car.
“In choosing my new car, I didn’t even consider buying another German vehicle,” Ms. He said.
The SU7 is not yet available for export, but a few models have reached the United States. James D. Farley Jr., the chief executive of Ford Motor, said he had one shipped from Shanghai to Chicago to drive for six months and “didn’t want to give it up.”
Xiaomi has also been testing pared-down versions its SU7 Ultra, which will be released in China in March, on Germany’s storied racetrack, the Nürburgring. In October, the car set a record for the “fastest four-door sedan,” and industry media and car fans cheered the news, excited that the SU7 had beaten Porsche’s Taycan by 20 seconds.
A Porsche Macan crossover in Guangzhou, China.Credit...Keith Bradsher/The New York Times
Racetrack officials pointed out, however, that the times were not comparable because the Chinese car was a preliminary version competing in an essentially open category, while the Taycan was a showroom-ready model and ran in a highly regulated category. Regardless, the message was unmistakable.
“As German carmakers, we have to be at least as much or more innovative as we are more expensive,” Mr. Bratzel said. “And that has gradually been lost, because Chinese carmakers are now just as innovative, and some are even more innovative.”
Keith Bradsher contributed reporting from Beijing. Li You contributed research from Shanghai.
hoffmeister_fan
Kraftwagen König
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Purely anecdotal, visiting my local Porsche dealer was more like visiting a Taycan/Macan e dealer. Inventory seems bloated with them. A bit depressing and the usual cheery sales staff didn't seem as upbeat, but perhaps I am projecting my own sentiment on them.
Porsche Guy
Kraftkurve King
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German automakers formed a cartel in the 90's to fix prices and limit tech innovation to avoid R&D spending. Dieselgate was part of this. They've coasted on their brand power for the last 20 years and now it's coming back to bite them.
One aspect that the NYT article does not mention & is generally underreported is the fact that Xiaomi's lap record was achieve with the help of Prodrive engineers in the UK:
"Prodrive’s contributions to chassis torque vectoring, advanced aerodynamics, and powertrain integration have been helpful in Xiaomi Auto’s breakthrough, supporting the establishment of a new record for four-door electric vehicles."
Prodrive support for Xiaomi
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Id say more than "help". Prodrive basically engineered and build the whole car. Calling it a Xiaomi is incorrect imho.
Porsche Guy
Kraftkurve King
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Ford is the only brand that publicly mentions their work with Multimatic (Ford GT and Mustang GTD) even though Multimatic built the Valkyrie and AMG One as these brands did not have the in house expertise for the projects.
Tuffode
Diesel Dynamiker
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What are you talking about?
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It's a fact they did, but @Porsche Guy forgets to mention that even though there was this cartel, there were no other brands outside of it capable of even coming close to this "innovation limit". No kidding you stop spending crazy money on R&D when all the other brands in the world are AT LEAST a decade behind in everything.
The cartel they formed in the 90's has absolutely nothing to do with the state of affairs we're in now. Totally incomparable. German ICE offerings still are by far the most cutting edge bar none. It's the advent of BEV that's not quite catching on, mildly put.
For VAG dieselgate is biting them the ass right now sure. But Porsche, BMW and Mercedes?? Nahhh.
Come again? AMG outsourced the One? First time I see this.
Porsche Guy
Kraftkurve King
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It's listed on the Multimatic website. Scroll to the "works of art" section. https://www.multimatic.com/vehicles/road-vehicles
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Manufacturing partner. So they put together whatever MB tells them to put together, and how.
Porsche Guy
Kraftkurve King
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I suspect Multimatic tooks Mercedes AMG One concept (and F1 engine) and turned it into a reality.
Designing and building a car like the AMG One is a very different proposition than a C class. I don't think Mercedes has the resources for that kind of project. That's nothing against Mercedes as I think many brands do this.
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Outsourcing because they can't be bothered making it themselves.
I think it's ridiculous to claim anything otherwise.
Porsche Guy
Kraftkurve King
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I think it's less about "cant be bothered" and more along the lines of "don't have the expertise" for this kind of project.
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Absolutely wild to believe a tiny private company would be better suited than a 100+ year old car conglomerate, but to each his own.
Mercedes has almost 170.000 employees for crying out loud.
They outsourced because they can't be bothered with it. It's a tiny insignificant vanity project.
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- Matt
They're not geared for small scale production, it's as simple as that.
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Porsche
Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, is a German automobile manufacturer
specializing in high-performance sports cars, SUVs, and sedans,
headquartered in Stuttgart, Baden-Württemberg, Germany. Owned by
Volkswagen AG, it was founded in 1931 by Ferdinand Porsche.
In its early days, Porsche was contracted by the German government
to create a vehicle for the masses, which later became the Volkswagen
Beetle. In the late 1940s, Ferdinand's son Ferry Porsche began
building his car, which would result in the Porsche 356.
Official website: Porsche
Official website: Porsche
