Comparison tests Porsche 918 vs McLaren P1 vs LaFerrari

[Emu]

I'll save Treynor some time:

http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-p1-f1/21713-p1-vs-918-a-25.html#post594298

"Ah - the article has finally been published. So now I can tell the rest of the story

There were two big surprises for me with the Laguna test, and one big opportunity.

Surprise #1: The Trofeo R's were supposed to be much better than the MPSC's. They weren't. Both the telemetry data (corner apex speed, combined G forces, high-speed braking force) and the driver feedback (Randy said they felt about the same, and looked surprised) confirmed this point.

Surprise #2: There's a clear ABS deficit from the McLaren at speeds below 100 MPH, and especially when combining cornering and braking. It's not a brake capacity problem - both cars can get into ABS actuation at every single corner, lap after lap, without fade. It's rather a calibration / development issue. I recall mentioning this same thing ages ago on this board when comparing the 12C to the Ferrari 458. This test shows it vividly. Randy complained that he was overshooting his turn-in point in the P1, which meant he was over-slowing some corners, which compounded the traction challenge he had on corner exit.

Opportunity: if McLaren updates the ABS program/actuator/... in time, Motor Trend has offered to re-test the P1 in July when the do the Best Driver's Car comparo. Porsche after all has been updating the 918 regularly for the past year (remember Randy's comment about the 918 brakes at Big Willow?) and McLaren has a history of issuing updates for their cars. Lobby your favorite MTC rep if you want to see this happen!"

 

[Bucketslash11]

another win for the 918, that makes it 4-1 (saw the results from previous tests and the unofficial 7:04 time at the ring on Fchat)

 

[tristatez28lt1]

Let me guess, Ferrarichat?

No, from a person at MT. I'm not on Fchat haha. I'm not sure why he would tell me there were 5 McLaren reps there when treynor says there weren't.

 

[Emu]

another win for the 918, that makes it 4-1 (saw the results from previous tests and the unofficial 7:04 time at the ring on Fchat)

Makes it 1-1 in terms of laps done on a dry surface.

Anglesey Coastal
918 - 1:12.4
P1 - 1:11.11 (-1.29s time from video. We now know from Randy's comments that there is very little difference in the tyres.

"Surprise #1: The Trofeo R's were supposed to be much better than the MPSC's. They weren't. Both the telemetry data (corner apex speed, combined G forces, high-speed braking force) and the driver feedback (Randy said they felt about the same, and looked surprised) confirmed this point.")

Laguna Seca
918 - 1:29.89
P1 - 1:30.71 (+0.82s time from video)

Regardless of persistent BS, these are the only factual times we have where both cars have lapped the same track on a dry surface on semi-slicks. There is no P1 Nordschleife time, and the Autocar Dry lap was not dry for the P1 and it was on PZCS tyres. The 918 had two runs at Laguna Seca on the same tyres, the P1 had two runs at Anglesey on different tyres. Quoting anything else is just an Fchat-like distortion of the truth.

No, from a person at MT. I'm not on Fchat haha. I'm not sure why he would tell me there were 5 McLaren reps there when treynor says there weren't.

He was probably counting the tyres as reps.

 

[tristatez28lt1]

He was probably counting the tyres as reps.

So 2+4=5?

 

[lbonu1967]

I am sure. The N1s are the same type as on the GT3 RS, which are known to be a compound change.

As always. The same junk from our common friend Emu
The 918 in the test had the Cup 2 N0 and not the N1.
I checked the MT datas.
Where is the P1 alleged downforce advantage ?
Look at the braking g from T1 (155 mph), betweem T5-T6 (129 mph) T7 (136 mph)
In all this sector the 918 pull more longitudinal g than the P1
That's a bit strange taking in count that a 155 mph the P1 should have someting like @ 600 kg of downforce raising mechanical grip ( ... on the paper)
What happened Emu ?
Laguna seca is not suited to the advanced aerodynamics of the p1 also for braking ?
Cheer

Luque

 

[Emu]

So 2+4=5?

If he thinks a tyre is a rep, you can't exactly expect accurate addition skills can you?

Since when did it take 5 mechanics to change tyres anyway?

 

[Emu]

As always. The same junk from our common friend Emu
The 918 in the test had the Cup 2 N0 and not the N1.
I checked the MT datas.
Where is the P1 alleged downforce advantage ?
Look at the braking g from T1 (155 mph), betweem T5-T6 (129 mph) T7 (136 mph)
In all this sector the 918 pull more longitudinal g than the P1
That's a bit strange taking in count that a 155 mph the P1 should have someting like @ 600 kg of downforce raising mechanical grip ( ... on the paper)
What happened Emu ?
Laguna seca is not suited to the advanced aerodynamics of the p1 also for braking ?
Cheer

Luque

Weren't you the guy telling everyone PZeros were better than Pilot Super Sport over on fastestlaps? Go tell Apolo1 this tremendous 'fact' and present him with your amazing test as proof.

Here we are:

http://fastestlaps.com/laptimes/5468eb9a07cee.html#comments

Here the Pzero humiliating the Michelin Pilot Supersport in a 2014 test.
http://i.imgur.com/oEwr4S4.jpg

Well if you looked at the data properly you'd see the corners are very inconsistent. T6 4mph slower than other traces provided by Treynor, faster on T4 than 918, T3 cocked up completely, braking too early into T8 and T9.

The assumption you're making is that a robot was driving both cars, who instantly became accustomed to them and drove them optimally.

Yes the P1's downforce should have given it an advantage, and if you actually read the article instead of just looking at the pictures, you'll see why the P1 suffered under braking. Nothing to do with CoG or weight distribution, or any of the other BS you suggested. In fact it should be an easy fix and:

http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-p1-f1/21713-p1-vs-918-a-25.html#post594298

"Opportunity: if McLaren updates the ABS program/actuator/... in time, Motor Trend has offered to re-test the P1 in July when the do the Best Driver's Car comparo. Porsche after all has been updating the 918 regularly for the past year (remember Randy's comment about the 918 brakes at Big Willow?) and McLaren has a history of issuing updates for their cars. Lobby your favorite MTC rep if you want to see this happen!"

 

[Bucketslash11]

Makes it 1-1 in terms of laps done on a dry surface.

Anglesey Coastal
918 - 1:12.4
P1 - 1:11.11 (-1.29s time from video. We now know from Randy's comments that there is very little difference in the tyres.

"Surprise #1: The Trofeo R's were supposed to be much better than the MPSC's. They weren't. Both the telemetry data (corner apex speed, combined G forces, high-speed braking force) and the driver feedback (Randy said they felt about the same, and looked surprised) confirmed this point.")

Laguna Seca
918 - 1:29.89
P1 - 1:30.71 (+0.82s time from video)

Regardless of persistent BS, these are the only factual times we have where both cars have lapped the same track on a dry surface on semi-slicks. There is no P1 Nordschleife time, and the Autocar Dry lap was not dry for the P1 and it was on PZCS tyres. The 918 had two runs at Laguna Seca on the same tyres, the P1 had two runs at Anglesey on different tyres. Quoting anything else is just an Fchat-like distortion of the truth.


He was probably counting the tyres as reps.

1. angelsey was driven against a handicapped 918 not driving 100% of it's potential (discussed earlier so i won't mention the factors) it lost without factory support, enough said

2. what treynor (and randy) forgets to mention is the effect of 4WD, 4WD has more grip to use at any point so saying the tyres are equal when one is 2WD and the other is 4WD is not giving os any clues to which one is stickier (try this yourself by renting a 2WD and a 4WD of the same car, like a passat)

"Quoting anything else is just an Fchat-like distortion of the truth."

don't you just love when irony strikes, i quote from people who are objective and who observed how the numbers played out and how the manufacturers reacted

 

[Emu]

1. angelsey was driven against a handicapped 918 not driving 100% of it's potential (discussed earlier so i won't mention the factors) it lost without factory support, enough said

As already mentioned, said handicap may have been an advantage, you certainly can't claim 1.2s for it and you certainly can't claim a win for it.

http://www.germancarforum.com/threa...ari-topgear-evo-etc.52070/page-66#post-735835

Porsche are free to go back to Anglesey with Evo and try beat 1:11.11 any time they like.

2. what treynor (and randy) forgets to mention is the effect of 4WD, 4WD has more grip to use at any point so saying the tyres are equal when one is 2WD and the other is 4WD is not giving os any clues to which one is stickier (try this yourself by renting a 2WD and a 4WD of the same car, like a passat)

Don't confuse grip with traction. The 918 was better on exit because of AWD, but mid-corner it doesn't help and is often at a disadvantage because you're driving with the same wheels you're trying to turn with. Passat is FWD, so that's completely non-equivalent.

"Quoting anything else is just an Fchat-like distortion of the truth."

don't you just love when irony strikes, i quote from people who are objective and who observed how the numbers played out and how the manufacturers reacted

Not really, you included a time where the P1 ran on a damp track on tyres that are ~2s slower. And claimed a victory for a track where the P1 hasn't posted a time.

The good news is that the P1 can cut well over 1s from an ABS update thanks to MT and Randy's excellent and constructive feedback, just as the 918 cut 1.1s from an update. This is the major difference between MT and Evo, quality of feedback and quality of data. McLaren could have found out about the ABS months ago if Evo were more like MT. This gain would of course apply to other tracks too, so watch out.

 

[Mafalda]

Ehm, 2 or 4wd is not an handicap/advantage, but a technical choice....

 

[Emu]

Ehm, 2 or 4wd is not an handicap/advantage, but a technical choice....

Exactly. My only point was that it doesn't change lateral grip mid-corner but rather helps on exit by putting more power down without getting out of shape. On the downside, you have the extra weight.

 

[lbonu1967]

Weren't you the guy telling everyone PZeros were better than Pilot Super Sport over on fastestlaps? Go tell Apolo1 this tremendous 'fact' and present him with your amazing test as proof.

That's no the question I did.
Confirming once again that you actual PZero and Supersport are perfectly comparable,
You affirmed the 918 Spyder in was in N1 just because it suited to your biased explaination
That's false and stated in MT article
You acts as cheater, but you must remember that then sooner or later other players ask to see your cards

Well if you looked at the data properly you'd see the corners are very inconsistent. T6 4mph slower than other traces provided by Treynor, faster on T4 than 918, T3 cocked up completely, braking too early into T8 and T9.

The assumption you're making is that a robot was driving both cars, who instantly became accustomed to them and drove them optimally.

Yes the P1's downforce should have given it an advantage, and if you actually read the article instead of just looking at the pictures, you'll see why the P1 suffered under braking. Nothing to do with CoG or weight distribution, or any of the other BS you suggested. In fact it should be an easy fix and:

P1 vs 918

www.mclarenlife.com

"Opportunity: if McLaren updates the ABS program/actuator/... in time, Motor Trend has offered to re-test the P1 in July when the do the Best Driver's Car comparo. Porsche after all has been updating the 918 regularly for the past year (remember Randy's comment about the 918 brakes at Big Willow?) and McLaren has a history of issuing updates for their cars. Lobby your favorite MTC rep if you want to see this happen!"

Oh nice ABS issues and no robots driving bith cars
A F1 pulls 4.5 - 5 longitudinal g under braking and without ABS.
Another excuse to cover the reality about the claimed aerodynamics of the P1,
Amply demonstrated in F-chat

Cheer

Luque

 

[Emu]

That's no the question I did.
Confirming once again that you actual PZero and Supersport are perfectly comparable,
You affirmed the 918 Spyder in was in N1 just because it suited to your biased explaination
That's false and stated in MT article
You acts as cheater, but you must remember that then sooner or later other players ask to see your cards

Okay, here's another theory as to why it was faster. Ignoring the main straight where Pobst said the earlier 918 hiccuped and rounding to nearest mph:

I think we should insist on customer cars from now on - this is just getting silly.

918 2014 test / 2015 test (Delta)
T2-3 99mph vs 102mph (+3mph)
T3-4 105mph vs 108mph (+3mph)
T4-5 134mph vs 139mph (+5mph)
T5-6 122mph vs 126mph (+4mph)
T6-7 131mph vs 134mph (+3mph)
T8-9 91mph vs 99mph (+8mph)
T9-10 107mph vs 109mph (+2mph)
T10-11 111mph vs 113mph (+2mph)

Lap at 1:01:10

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Oh nice ABS issues and no robots driving bith cars
A F1 pulls 4.5 - 5 longitudinal g under braking and without ABS.
Another excuse to cover the reality about the claimed aerodynamics of the P1,
Amply demonstrated in F-chat

Cheer

Luque

No, these were Randy Pobst's comments.

"Pobst has two theories. One: "The P1 ABS was old-school obvious in its application and felt as though it lengthened brake zones considerably. I kept overrunning the turn-in points in it. This was the primary area where it can be improved, a quicker cycling, smarter, track-ready ABS control system like in real race cars."

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...8_spyder/track_performance.html#ixzz3TvcXCaTm"

 

[tristatez28lt1]

Here's the simple truth: The 2014 918 was pre production. The last test was with a full production 918.

 

[ajjers]

OMG Emu you really are outdoing yourself.

I loved your cropped picture of the 918's tyre. How did it feel Emu? How did you feel when you when you zoomed into the lovely high resolution pictures and couldn't find the alphanumeric N1 anywhere? Just a big fat N0 crushing your widely stated but completely baseless claim that Porsche had used the stickier N1 spec tyre for this test. Followed by the shame of having to crop the picture before posting it to make some completely irrelevant point

I guess the only question left to answer is how much faster than the P1 the 918 would have been had it ACTUALLY been on N1 tyres and if Porsche had put some real effort into optimising tyre pressures and temperatures. Conservatively 1.2-1.5s?

And here's the rub. The 918 used in this test was a full production vehicle, number 134/918 which is owned by PCNA.

"How did this 918 gain a second over the record? Meredith, the dark blue 918 that held it, was a preproduction vehicle and exhibited the occasional hiccup. On Pobst's record-setting lap last year, Meredith stopped accelerating over Turn 1 at 140 mph, as if Pobst had lifted off the throttle. Neither Alice nor an earlier 918 development car we tested at Big Willow last year exhibited this behavior. Both cars continued to accelerate past 150 mph, and that accounts for a significant amount of time at Laguna Seca. Further, Porsche reckons the 918 would be even faster with the same effort put into the McLaren's tires and pressures."

more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/exotic/1503_2015_mclaren_p1_vs_2015_porsche_918_spyder/track_performance.html#ixzz3Tw2uLRGR

 

[ajjers]

That would be fascinating except that everything you have just written is either untrue or misleading. You may have "a MT source" but I was there.

* Porsche sent 2 people from their factory team, Mclaren sent two people from their factory team. FACT.
* Tire Rack sent one set of tires for each car because that's what I had requested to avoid any appearance of cheating. Both car's best times were set on their first set of tires, the ones supplied by Tire Rack. FACT.
* Randy had driven the 918 at Laguna previously, but not the P1. FACT.
* Both cars achieved their best times on that first set of tires after two tire pressure adjustments. At that point Randy had more laps in the 918 than in the P1. FACT.

Finally, I brought along my spare set of P1 wheels and a second set of Trofeo Rs so that we wouldn't have to scrub the test if the Tire Rack set got a puncture (it does happen). After Randy's initial results, I asked him to give the second set a try since he was still trying to come to terms with the P1's braking and corner entry line. We swapped tires and sent him out again. No change in result.

Serious props for making this happen. Quite a few owners have said that they would let pro drivers track their hypercars but you are the first (and so far only) to have actually done so.

Some of us like to chide Emu (for obvious reasons) but that is not to say the P1 is anything other than a spectacular machine. May you continue to enjoy it in good health.

 

[lbonu1967]

Some of us like to chide Emu (for obvious reasons) but that is not to say the P1 is anything other than a spectacular machine. May you continue to enjoy it in good health.

Totally agree.
I don't care about lap time. Actually I will choose the P1 over the 918 because I like it more overall speaking

 

[Mafalda]

This is a clear victory for 918, end of the story: Mc has just only one justification: 918 was already there. but p1 still more powerful, lighter and.. more track focused than 918 (no weissach-package)

 

[Emu]

OMG Emu you really are outdoing yourself.

I loved your cropped picture of the 918's tyre. How did it feel Emu? How did you feel when you when you zoomed into the lovely high resolution pictures and couldn't find the alphanumeric N1 anywhere? Just a big fat N0 crushing your widely stated but completely baseless claim that Porsche had used the stickier N1 spec tyre for this test. Followed by the shame of having to crop the picture before posting it to make some completely irrelevant point

"How did this 918 gain a second over the record? Meredith, the dark blue 918 that held it, was a preproduction vehicle and exhibited the occasional hiccup. On Pobst's record-setting lap last year, Meredith stopped accelerating over Turn 1 at 140 mph, as if Pobst had lifted off the throttle. Neither Alice nor an earlier 918 development car we tested at Big Willow last year exhibited this behavior. Both cars continued to accelerate past 150 mph, and that accounts for a significant amount of time at Laguna Seca. Further, Porsche reckons the 918 would be even faster with the same effort put into the McLaren's tires and pressures."

That was one hiccup on the main straight. This 918 was consistently 3-4mph faster on every straight (even ignoring T8-9) and still 2-3 mph slower than the P1. The Euro 918 press car was 2mph faster than the P1 at Castelloli. These are not small discrepancies. As far as I'm aware, and according to Apolo1, the update fixed the virtual centre diff. Whereas what we're looking at here is a ~10% power hike on MT's test car and more on the Euro press car.

Customers have also noted that their HL mode lasts for much longer than on MT's test car, so this looks like a convenient hike in e-hp on press cars. All of the time was made from hp vs the previous 918, the corners were no faster.

I guess the only question left to answer is how much faster than the P1 the 918 would have been had it ACTUALLY been on N1 tyres and if Porsche had put some real effort into optimising tyre pressures and temperatures. Conservatively 1.2-1.5s?

Please read the article. You do yourself no favour by drinking the Fchat cool aid. Treynor has already stated that each team had 2 mechanics. He brought one spare set of tyres in case the other set punctured. He asked Randy if he wanted to try the second set and he said, "yes." It made no difference to the time.

Randy also said the P1 ABS let it down, evident in the traces.

Pobst has two theories. One: "The P1 ABS was old-school obvious in its application and felt as though it lengthened brake zones considerably.

The 918 is making up for everything it looses on the straights twice over and ending up with a 0.8s lead just under braking. That's what the traces say. So really the only definite improvement following an ABS update with be 1.5-2s for the P1 (and some for the 650S and 12C no doubt). The N1 tyres are an unknown quantity. Hopefully the retest will be customer car vs customer car, so that we can eliminate the very considerable and reasonable doubt I have over the recent integrity of Porsche press cars - we're literally talking about +100hp where the Euro press car is concerned. No wonder Apolo1 has made comments about 'some' 918s dynoing at 1020hp in HL mode.

He pulls in a few times for tire pressure adjustments and to give feedback to the two Porsche reps present. Bleeding-edge performance cars always require special attention and have their own quirks. Hot-lapping these two requires careful monitoring of the battery's state of charge. The electric boost in both roughly matches that of your daily driver's entire engine output; there's no point in pursuing the fastest lap time when it's gone.

And here's the rub. The 918 used in this test was a full production vehicle, number 134/918 which is owned by PCNA.

PCNA still counts as factory.

At the end of the day, the P1 still won by twice this percentage margin against the heavily ringed Euro press car at Anglesey and almost beat it using tyres that were 2s slower.... even with the flawed ABS costing it 1-2s!