Comparison tests Porsche 918 vs McLaren P1 vs LaFerrari

[Emu]

Maybe they mean brand new unused cars are sold out, but there is always a way to get one of these cars am sure of that. Someone with deep pockets and a real hunger to buy one of these cars will definitely buy one no matter what. Everything has a price. LEfts hope the guy doesn't have to lose one of his kahones for the car!!

While a costly method of payment for the giver, kahones are worth very little to the receiver and have almost zero resale value.

Possible uses may include a novelty gear-knob for the die-hard stick-shift enthusiasts, or a more ergonomic iDrive controller.

 

[gtaqv]

As explained the 918 ran first in a huge bash of a dozen cars at Portimao and the 458S ran last, so not really a like for like comparo. Warmer track, different time of day, loads of rubber laid down. Just as the GT3 ran last in this tyre test. The 918 was 3s faster than the 458S on Autocar dry handling, you're deliberately swindling figures.

Meanwhile the 458S was 4s quicker than the GT3 at Portimao but only 1.2s faster at Castle Combe.

Castle Combe (1:11.9 vs 1:13.1)
Portimao (1:58.2 vs 2:02.02)

So yeah, tenths at Anglesey. You don't have a leg to stand on.

Actually tyres make a huge difference on FWD cars that have to steer and put 275hp through the front wheels and can't regain speed as fast on the straights.

Actually the gt3 lap time at Portimao was 2:03.02 so the difference was nearly 5s!

 

[Emu]

Actually the gt3 lap time at Portimao was 2:03.02 so the difference was nearly 5s!

2.02.02 - see 4:25.

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[gtaqv]

2.02.02 - see 4:25.

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I was basing on the chris harris car of the year video where both cars are tested:

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There the gt3 times appears more than once as 2:03(for instance at 38.26)...

It was possibly a typo... seems like it did 2:02.

 

[Bucketslash11]

Just like no one has any proof these were genuine Trofeo R out of the Pirelli lorry.


Simply pointing out that the MPSC2 is 2.4s faster than MPSC+ on a similar length track and MPSC+ > PZCS.


Different year test, different car. That is also one long track, which leads to inconsistency. Much like a tyre test on the 'ring.


Firstly, it's a 2 minute lap not a 1 minute lap and the GT3 ran last on a warmer track with more rubber on it. The test needs to be ran the other way round to draw a final conclusion. Ran the opposite way round I think the difference will be <1s.

It could also be argued that a 458S being a whole 4s quicker than a GT3 on Portimao is somewhat surprising too, most people would have projected about 2s if asked to guess prior to the event. Maybe the MPSC2 time for the GT3 is just a very bad lap.

the main problem is that you're introducing variables in a test where all the variables had been removed, you would have to preform the same test on the 458S and i suspect it also would be 2 seconds quicker with the trofeo Rs (thereby removing the variables from the test)

if you can repeat a result then the point is proven that the trofeo Rs are stickier than the MPSC2

"insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results" -albert einstein

 

[Emu]

I was basing on the chris harris car of the year video where both cars are tested:

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There the gt3 times appears more than once as 2:03(for instance at 38.26)...

It was possibly a typo... seems like it did 2:02.

Yeah it's kind of odd that the tyre test involved the same .02 in the time. So were the times in the tyre test even done on the same day?

 

[Emu]

the main problem is that you're introducing variables in a test where all the variables had been removed, you would have to preform the same test on the 458S and i suspect it also would be 2 seconds quicker with the trofeo Rs (thereby removing the variables from the test)

if you can repeat a result then the point is proven that the trofeo Rs are stickier than the MPSC2

"insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results" -albert einstein

If you run the same test in reverse order you aren't running the same test, it's a different test. I'm still trying to fathom whether the tyre test times were even done on the same day. For some reason in the 2014 COTY the time doesn't pop up after the GT3 run at 20 minute mark but comes up as 2:03.02 at the end and then the time in the tyre test is 2:02.02. Is it the same time?

The 458S vs GT3 time delta makes the GT3 time seem unusually slow, suggesting that there are more factors at play here. Nobody would expect a 458S to have 4s on a GT3.

Maybe the GT3 MPSC2 time is just a really bad time. We don't even get to see this GT3 MPSC2 hot lap and that sets off immediate alarm bells and the BS flag moves up to half-mast. We don't see the Megane 275 R MPSC2 hot lap either. None of the GT3 or 275 R laps in the 2014 COTY video appear to be hot laps. Sorry, this is not evidence without seeing those laps.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

I think you really are reading too much into things.

In the Chris Harris 2014 COTY video, all the cars set their laptimes on the standard stock tires that come with the vehicle. For that comparative test, presumably done on the same day, the 458 Speciale laptime was 1:58.20, while the GT3's laptime was 2:03.02

In the Chris Harris tire test video, I presume this was a separate test with him driving the GT3 at a different time. Therefore, it's a different lap than what was reported in the 2014 COTY video, hence the slightly different time of 2:02.02 for the Michelin PSC2 tires, and 2:00.00 for the Pirelli Trofeo R tires.

Bottom line: The GT3 laptime is consistently around 2:02 to 2:03 on this track on the standard Michelin tires, and it seems the Trofeo R tires really are better and make a subjective and objective difference.

 

[Emu]

I think you really are reading too much into things.

In the Chris Harris 2014 COTY video, all the cars set their laptimes on the standard stock tires that come with the vehicle. For that comparative test, presumably done on the same day, the 458 Speciale laptime was 1:58.20, while the GT3's laptime was 2:03.02

In the Chris Harris tire test video, I presume this was a separate test with him driving the GT3 at a different time. Therefore, it's a different lap than what was reported in the 2014 COTY video, hence the slightly different time of 2:02.02 for the Michelin PSC2 tires, and 2:00.00 for the Pirelli Trofeo R tires.

Bottom line: The GT3 laptime is consistently around 2:02 to 2:03 on this track on the standard Michelin tires, and it seems the Trofeo R tires really are better and make a subjective and objective difference.

Right...... so the Megane 275 R ran exactly the same time on MPSC2s in the tyre test as in the 2014 COTY and the decimal place digits in the GT3 time just happened to be exactly the same as its 2014 COTY time also. That's quite some coincidence by any standards. And both MPSC2 hot laps are missing from the 2014 COTY video and aren't shown in the tyre test video either.

That just lacks journalistic integrity. Bottom line: If you want to talk tyre times, you test on the same day and show both laps. What he did was test on different days, run a shit time in the GT3 relative to the 458S (with about double the expected time delta) and not show either of the MPSC2 hot laps. The BS flag is now flying at full mast.

It's also a shame the P1 couldn't be there because it would definitely annihilate the 918 time on that track with either tyre.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

There is now another real life claim that the Trofeo R tire is the faster tire on a circuit on a 991 GT3 with an experienced owner who tracks his car. See thread below:

http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/856356-psc2-vs-trofeo-r-speed-difference.html

The collective evidence so far is suggesting the Trofeo R tire is better. What's the big deal if that is the case? Good for Pirelli!!

 

[Emu]

^So less than 1s on a 1:19 lap. Time difference on a 2:30 lap unclear, driver still getting to grips with track and car.

Suggests difference on a 1:12 lap would be <0.8s at best although driver seems inconsistent and tested on a different day.

Understeer significantly decreased with the Trofeo Rs (kinda expected). However, unexpectedly, I had a lot more oversteer with them, no idea why (? more front grip). The difference is so significant, I had to change the rear sway barsetting from the stiffest to the middle position.

So the 0.9s difference included a car modification.

 

[Monster]

^So less than 1s on a 1:19 lap. Time difference on a 2:30 lap unclear, driver still getting to grips with track and car.

Suggests difference on a 1:12 lap would be <0.8s at best although driver seems inconsistent and tested on a different day.
So the 0.9s difference included a car modification.

Emu, maybe you can arrange something with Paul Bailey? It is much more effective than typing on this forum.

 

[Emu]

0.9s isn't a big difference on a 1.19 lap given a different day tyre test with a sway bar mod. I think it supports my claims wrt 'tenths' on Anglesey. And it definitely repudiates those who claim a 2s difference on a 1 minute lap... mentioning no names. *cough* ajjers *cough* citylad *cough*.

 

[Bucketslash11]

0.9s isn't a big difference on a 1.19 lap given a different day tyre test with a sway bar mod. I think it supports my claims wrt 'tenths' on Anglesey. And it definitely repudiates those who claim a 2s difference on a 1 minute lap... mentioning no names. *cough* ajjers *cough* citylad *cough*.

apparantly you don't seem to have read the whole thing

he came back and did a 3 seconds better laptime where he estimated the tyres to have taken 2 of those seconds

 

[Emu]

apparantly you don't seem to have read the whole thing

he came back and did a 3 seconds better laptime where he estimated the tyres to have taken 2 of those seconds

Your reading comprehension needs work, so let me help you with that.

http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/856356-psc2-vs-trofeo-r-speed-difference.html

"Understeer significantly decreased with the Trofeo Rs (kinda expected). However, unexpectedly, I had a lot more oversteer with them, no idea why (? more front grip). The difference is so significant, I had to change the rear sway barsetting from the stiffest to the middle position.

1-Local track (MSR). I have thousands of laps here and my times are very consistent so differences are real. On the 1.7 mile loop, I gained about 0.9 seconds (similar ambient temps) with the Trofeos, for a 1:18:89 lap time.

2-COTA. Today was my second day ever at COTA so I am not as consistent (still within 0.5 secs lap to lap) but I also drove a bit better today (you tube, talking to drivers the past few weeks). I figure better driving gave me 1 second +/-. Total time gained today, compared to my previous best? THREE full seconds, at 2:26:20. So if I take away one for better driving, I gained at least 2 seconds by swapping tires alone, about double the gain at the 1.7 mile so it makes sense. I still have at leastone more second on the table at COTA. The car and tiresare fast."

Points to note.

1. The 3s delta was on a near 2:30 lap, not a 1 minute lap.

2. He is not consistent on this track like he is with the shorter track, so that kind of throws any time deltas in the air completely.

3. He 'figures' the tyres gave him 2s but that estimate obviously has no real basis in science because he also drove better and doesn't really know how much of the time delta was him and how much was tyre, because their is no reliable way of gauging that accurately.

4. Different day test.

5. He gained 0.9s on a 1:19 track he is consistent on but with adjusted sway bay setting.

There is again nothing conclusive here and certainly nothing to suggest a 2s difference on a 1 minute lap and a lot to suggest less than 1s, i.e. tenths.

 

[lbonu1967]

hey lbonu, while I agree with your post, I will prefer if you can refrain from making vulgar comments towards another member in the future. Thanks.

I apologize I did not want to be vulgar. The fact is that a member of this site has coherence equal to zero .....

 

[Bucketslash11]

Your reading comprehension needs work, so let me help you with that.

http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/856356-psc2-vs-trofeo-r-speed-difference.html

"Understeer significantly decreased with the Trofeo Rs (kinda expected). However, unexpectedly, I had a lot more oversteer with them, no idea why (? more front grip). The difference is so significant, I had to change the rear sway barsetting from the stiffest to the middle position.

1-Local track (MSR). I have thousands of laps here and my times are very consistent so differences are real. On the 1.7 mile loop, I gained about 0.9 seconds (similar ambient temps) with the Trofeos, for a 1:18:89 lap time.

2-COTA. Today was my second day ever at COTA so I am not as consistent (still within 0.5 secs lap to lap) but I also drove a bit better today (you tube, talking to drivers the past few weeks). I figure better driving gave me 1 second +/-. Total time gained today, compared to my previous best? THREE full seconds, at 2:26:20. So if I take away one for better driving, I gained at least 2 seconds by swapping tires alone, about double the gain at the 1.7 mile so it makes sense. I still have at leastone more second on the table at COTA. The car and tiresare fast."

Points to note.

1. The 3s delta was on a near 2:30 lap, not a 1 minute lap.

2. He is not consistent on this track like he is with the shorter track, so that kind of throws any time deltas in the air completely.

3. He 'figures' the tyres gave him 2s but that estimate obviously has no real basis in science because he also drove better and doesn't really know how much of the time delta was him and how much was tyre, because their is no reliable way of gauging that accurately.

4. Different day test.

5. He gained 0.9s on a 1:19 track he is consistent on but with adjusted sway bay setting.

There is again nothing conclusive here and certainly nothing to suggest a 2s difference on a 1 minute lap and a lot to suggest less than 1s, i.e. tenths.

lets put some math into this shall we (trying to keep the letters in this equation to a minimum)

-his consistency is a variable (x)
-his trofeo laptimes are variables ( y )
-the difference between the trofeos and the MPSC2 is a variable (z)

the equation:
MPSC2x - trofeo Ry = differencez (simple as it can get)

despite his MPSC2 variable laptimes the trofeo Rs alway end up lapping faster

he did repeat this test and ended up with the 3 seconds gap, notifying his own consistensy (variable)

even when the variable was taken into account the trofeo R was deemed surperior to the MPSC2

 

[Emu]

lets put some math into this shall we (trying to keep the letters in this equation to a minimum)

-his consistency is a variable (x)
-his trofeo laptimes are variables ( y )
-the difference between the trofeos and the MPSC2 is a variable (z)

the equation:
MPSC2x - trofeo Ry = differencez (simple as it can get)

despite his MPSC2 variable laptimes the trofeo Rs alway end up lapping faster

he did repeat this test and ended up with the 3 seconds gap, notifying his own consistensy (variable)

even when the variable was taken into account the trofeo R was deemed surperior to the MPSC2

Now I'm forced to help you with your maths too. I should be charging tutelage.

(x,trof + y,trof + v,swaybar) - (x,mpsc2 + y,mpsc2) = z + v,swaybar = 3s

Now unless you know what x,trof, x,mpsc2 and v,swaybar are, which you don't, you can't work out what z is. And I'm keeping it simple by eliminating w (weather, track temp, rubber laid etc.).

On the shorter track he is consistent so x = 0 and:

(y,trof + v,swaybar) - y,mpsc2 = z + v,swaybar = 0.9s

Given that v,swaybar is positive, z < 0.9s for laptime ~ 1:19.

 

[Bucketslash11]

http://fastestlaps.com/laptimes/5468eb9a07cee.html#124583

BR2 and saxy of fastestlaps have ended the debate

anyway i do notice an error in your calculations

you said the the trofeos and the MPSC2 were equally grippy, however then the equation would be like this for the result:
x=x2

however since it isn't like that, you're wrong (i'm counting 0,5 second +- of consistency)

lets call the result V (for velocity), v1 is MPSC2 and V2 is trofeo

so far the equation looks like this then
V2 > V1
the swaybar can also be added to both times
V2x > V1x
and i'm estimating the result to be the same based on the video chris harris presented

@Monster can do the calculations as an engineer

 

[Emu]

Some people said the Trofeo R was 2s faster on a 1 minute lap, e.g. ajjers, and the truth is noweher near.

http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/856356-psc2-vs-trofeo-r-speed-difference.html

Understeer significantly decreased with the Trofeo Rs (kinda expected). However, unexpectedly, I had a lot more oversteer with them, no idea why (? more front grip). The difference is so significant, I had to change the rear sway bar setting from the stiffest to the middle position.

1-Local track (MSR). I have thousands of laps here and my times are very consistent so differences are real. On the 1.7 mile loop, I gained about 0.9 seconds (similar ambient temps) with the Trofeos, for a 1:18:89 lap time.

MPSC2 -> Trofeo R = <0.9s on 1:19 track (without changing sway bar setting).

PZCS ->Trofeo R = 1.4s on 1:12 track (no other changes)

So PZCS ->Trofeo R difference is roughly twice the MPSC2 -> Trofeo R difference.

As regards the feel on turn in, I know I've posted this before but actually read what it says about feel:

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Michelin-Pilot-Sport-Cup-2-Launched.htm

When compared directly to the Cup+, initial impressions of the Cup 2 were actually negative - it’s a slightly slower steering tyre in low speed corners. While it's only a fraction, it was noticeable while testing back to back, however the payoff was clear the first time a high speed corner was taken - stability. So much more stability, to the point it felt like the 911 had uprated dampers.

Feel on turn in isn't necessarily indicative.

It's anything but a scientific test. His times are all over the place on Portimao and if Ferrari really can 'tweak' a 458S to within 1s/minute of a 918 I'd be really impressed!