Gone off track Politically-laced off-topic discussion from BEV thread

[SKY]

IMO if you're buying Israeli products you are supporting them, that in my book makes you complicit and a bad person

I can't blame China for the postion they are in, they were given the opportunity by greedy western companies (who fired tens of millions of people) who off-shored production to China to increase there profits. They would have been foolish not to have leapt at the opportunity.

I doubt Cuba would be a dictatorship today if the US had lifted its embargo decades ago. Note Castro other-threw the US backed Batista dictatorship. Venezuela is also a problem the US had a hand in making.

I will add I'm definitely not a leftie.

Well, thank you for inserting the last phrase, cause reading your remarks, they sound clearly like the rhetoric a socialist would use to defend some of the worst examples of his ideology.

Western companies might be greedy (companies operate in order to maximize profitability, btw), but we might also say Chinese companies have no ethic when they openly steal the IP of the western companies that opt to produce their goods there. Also, hard to justify being a dictatorship based on this. My country also suffered a dictatorship decades back and also had international companies producing stuff cheaply here. But they were hardly to blame for our own miseries.

So Cuba and Venezuela are dictatorships due to the US? Hmm, wouldn't you say there is a bias there? Do you know any country where communism operates or has operated in which they openly given up power? Do you know a country where communism has operated that has been a democracy? I certainly don't. There is also a common denominator among those countries: they always end up poorer than they started. Oh, and another one: they always find an outside evil to blame for their own sh!t. It's a pitty some of you buy their lies.

I was mentioning the dictatorship in my country (a fascist one, btw). I let you guess which country contributed more to democracy being restored here, the US or China.

Why is it terrorism, why isn't it fighting colonial oppression? Do you consider the Stern Gang, Irgun and Haganah as terrorists? They commented incredible atrocities up to 1947, in 1948 they formed the nucleus the IDF. when you boil it all down its a property right issue, the Palestinians were driven off there land, kicked out of there homes and villages and didn't receive any compensation. They were then thrown into refugee camps and left to rot.

Another incredibly biased opinion. Yes, Israelis have mistreated the Palestinians for decades. They have expanded their borders beyond what was agreed with the UN back in the day. Have you also considered what happened immediately after the state of Israel was created? Is not that the surrounding countries are any better, or that people live better in those other countries, which have always pledged to destroy Israel. Or do you believe Iran is interested in a Palestine that embraces the two-state solution? Cause those talks were almost there in the late 90s.
And guess which countries back Iran, Venezuela, Cuba... Our buddies the Chinese and Russians. Might they have some of the blame for the situation in these countries, or is it just the US?

In a conflict as old and as complicated as this one, I tend to look with distrust anyone whose opinion always includes the atrocities of one side without mentioning the ones from the others.

 

[Matski]

Oh, and another one: they always find an outside evil to blame for their own sh!t.

That's hardly a feature of ex-communist states when many western democracies are scapegoating migrants for their own failings.

 

[SKY]

That's hardly a feature of ex-communist states when many western democracies are scapegoating migrants for their own failings.

Well, you could argue that’s a feature some people have on an individual basis (at least I consider it very human), and every government nowadays. You only have to look at what happens when a judge calls a minister for anything: at least here in Spain, the first instinct is to call the judge corrupt.

But there is an important difference, on my initial example, I highlight the fact that a dictatorship, which is a political system that only works when imposed over the population, tends to blame its intrinsic problems (closed borders, repression, non-existent check & balances) on an exterior enemy. Here in Spain the fault was always on hidden communists and jews, in South America the blaim is always on the US.

The other examples are just bad politicians blaming others for their own mistakes, not for the errors of their own political system.

 

[KiwiRob]

Batista was a US supported dictator, I thought everyone knew that. The US has been messing around with countries in South America for over a century.

That's hardly a feature of ex-communist states when many western democracies are scapegoating migrants for their own failings.

A lot of countries in Europe right now are scapegoating immigrants, in particular Muslim immigrants.

 

[KiwiRob]

Well, thank you for inserting the last phrase, cause reading your remarks, they sound clearly like the rhetoric a socialist would use to defend some of the worst examples of his ideology.

Western companies might be greedy (companies operate in order to maximize profitability, btw), but we might also say Chinese companies have no ethic when they openly steal the IP of the western companies that opt to produce their goods there. Also, hard to justify being a dictatorship based on this. My country also suffered a dictatorship decades back and also had international companies producing stuff cheaply here. But they were hardly to blame for our own miseries.

So Cuba and Venezuela are dictatorships due to the US? Hmm, wouldn't you say there is a bias there? Do you know any country where communism operates or has operated in which they openly given up power? Do you know a country where communism has operated that has been a democracy? I certainly don't. There is also a common denominator among those countries: they always end up poorer than they started. Oh, and another one: they always find an outside evil to blame for their own sh!t. It's a pitty some of you buy their lies.

I was mentioning the dictatorship in my country (a fascist one, btw). I let you guess which country contributed more to democracy being restored here, the US or China.



Another incredibly biased opinion. Yes, Israelis have mistreated the Palestinians for decades. They have expanded their borders beyond what was agreed with the UN back in the day. Have you also considered what happened immediately after the state of Israel was created? Is not that the surrounding countries are any better, or that people live better in those other countries, which have always pledged to destroy Israel. Or do you believe Iran is interested in a Palestine that embraces the two-state solution? Cause those talks were almost there in the late 90s.
And guess which countries back Iran, Venezuela, Cuba... Our buddies the Chinese and Russians. Might they have some of the blame for the situation in these countries, or is it just the US?

In a conflict as old and as complicated as this one, I tend to look with distrust anyone whose opinion always includes the atrocities of one side without mentioning the ones from the others.

It’s not that old a conflict, 1947 isn’t that long ago. The simple fact is the UN had no right to creat Israel, the had no right to give another peoples land to someone else. If there had to be a country created for the Jews the fairest option would have been taking a chunk of Germany. Most of the Jews in Israel are Europeans not of Middle Eastern origin.

 

[SKY]

It’s not that old a conflict, 1947 isn’t that long ago. The simple fact is the UN had no right to creat Israel, the had no right to give another peoples land to someone else. If there had to be a country created for the Jews the fairest option would have been taking a chunk of Germany. Most of the Jews in Israel are Europeans not of Middle Eastern origin.

And why would the Jews want to be in Germany? Jews migrations to their sacred land began a century before Israel was created, and they were motivated basically cause everyone else wanted them out of their countries. Historically, people had not been a fan of rich individuals, or concepts like borrowing money at a cost.

Palestine was always part of different empires: Byzantine, several caliphates and lately a part of the Ottoman empire. And with the Ottomans they were not even a province, but part of Syria. This part of the world was rather low in population in fact. By the end of the XIX century the Zionist movement started and as part of that movement it was stated that the Jews ought to return to its original kingdom (which was ended if I'm not mistaken by Titus during his last campaign before his brother Vespasian plotted against him).

But most importantly, in those lands there were already Jews. But from the start of the XX century the Jews started a migration process with the Jews actually BUYING those lands. And not only that, not everyone migrating to that part of the world back in the day were Jews.

Once the Ottoman empire collapsed after the end of the war, Palestine still did not exist, as the territory was part of the UK mandate, which also included Jordan, which was created as an estate once the UK gave them the independence and given to the Arabs. This was c. 4/6 of the UK mandate. With the remaining part the UK divided it based on its population at the time if I'm not mistaken.

This is what was recognized by the UN. So it's not that people suddenly appeared there. It was a slow process and was done on a relatively logical manner. It did not destroyed an existing state cause, going by that criteria, both Israel and Palestine should be given back to Jordan (and Jordan to Turkey?).

To sum up, compare the length of what I just posted with your simplified (and again, biased) explanation. Point is, some people simply go and say Jews are evil and occupied lands (this is what can be said about their latest expansion and colonies, when they have mistreated terribly the Arab community there), they highlight what the Jews have done wrong (which I believe it is quite clear to all informed about the conflict). But the reality is simply way more complex. Let alone the solution which, as I have said before, is probably never going to be accepted by the Arab countries in the region.

 

[klier]

No, it only appears to you. Your hate-laced rhetoric has no place on this forum.

It appears TO ME that you support the unlawful killing of innocent civilians.

Stop sniffing glue

 

[Gianclaudio]

hey were given the opportunity by greedy western companies (who fired tens of millions of people) who off-shored production to China to increase there profits.

I fully agree with that statement. Western/capitalism greed ended up making a monster that now is eating all of us, alive.
On the other hand:

I doubt Cuba would be a dictatorship today if the US had lifted its embargo decades ago. Note Castro other-threw the US backed Batista dictatorship. Venezuela is also a problem the US had a hand in making.

But the "embargo" didn't stop Cuba (nor Venezuela) to trade with half of the world.

The effing Cuban government (and people like you) keep blaming the embargo, yet they have money to build more and more hotels for tourists, while their people live like rats.
Aren't those hotels joint ventures with European investors? As is the tobacco industry, or Havana Club rhum (Pernod Ricard)?

How are Venezuela and Cuba doing after Chavez/Maduro and the Castros?

why isn't it fighting colonial oppression?

How is the colonial oppression fight doing in New Zealand, Rob?
Or is that kind of colonialism good? (As you once mentioned that the Indians should be thankful for the past British colonization)

The US has been messing around with countries in South America for over a century.

Oops, I see you forgot again to mention the British.
They have been messing around this lands since the independence wars up to this day.

But I get it, you mean the US backed dictatorships in the 70s.
How were they different to the soviet backed Cuba, or China/Russia/Iran supported current "left" (euphemism for fascist) governments of nowadays Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, etc?

Double standards at its finest.

 

[KiwiRob]

And why would the Jews want to be in Germany? Jews migrations to their sacred land began a century before Israel was created, and they were motivated basically cause everyone else wanted them out of their countries. Historically, people had not been a fan of rich individuals, or concepts like borrowing money at a cost.

Palestine was always part of different empires: Byzantine, several caliphates and lately a part of the Ottoman empire. And with the Ottomans they were not even a province, but part of Syria. This part of the world was rather low in population in fact. By the end of the XIX century the Zionist movement started and as part of that movement it was stated that the Jews ought to return to its original kingdom (which was ended if I'm not mistaken by Titus during his last campaign before his brother Vespasian plotted against him).

But most importantly, in those lands there were already Jews. But from the start of the XX century the Jews started a migration process with the Jews actually BUYING those lands. And not only that, not everyone migrating to that part of the world back in the day were Jews.

Once the Ottoman empire collapsed after the end of the war, Palestine still did not exist, as the territory was part of the UK mandate, which also included Jordan, which was created as an estate once the UK gave them the independence and given to the Arabs. This was c. 4/6 of the UK mandate. With the remaining part the UK divided it based on its population at the time if I'm not mistaken.

This is what was recognized by the UN. So it's not that people suddenly appeared there. It was a slow process and was done on a relatively logical manner. It did not destroyed an existing state cause, going by that criteria, both Israel and Palestine should be given back to Jordan (and Jordan to Turkey?).

To sum up, compare the length of what I just posted with your simplified (and again, biased) explanation. Point is, some people simply go and say Jews are evil and occupied lands (this is what can be said about their latest expansion and colonies, when they have mistreated terribly the Arab community there), they highlight what the Jews have done wrong (which I believe it is quite clear to all informed about the conflict). But the reality is simply way more complex. Let alone the solution which, as I have said before, is probably never going to be accepted by the Arab countries in the region.

The first Aliyah was in 1881, that's not even close to a century before 1947. In 1881 there were 24000 jews living in Palestine quite happily with 276000 Palestinians, that's not low in population, you're buying into 'the land without a people for a people without a land' lie. By 1947 the population was 630000 jews and 1,3m Palestinians, in 1948 the population was 716000 jews, 156000 Palestinians. If you don't see what is wrong with this you're blind. The build up of the jewsih population in Palestine was niot a slow process, it was pretty rapid.

Jewish & Non-Jewish Population of Israel/Palestine (1517-Present)

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Why should the jews have Palestine, it wasn't there's, Palestinians had been living there for thousands of years. Palestinians were there when Jesus is alleged to have lived, the inconvenient truth is they were originally Jews, they converted and became the first Christians, 600 years later many converted to Islam, Palestinians are the indigenous people of the region, along with the 24000 jews that were living there before the mass migration of jews from Europe occurred.

It's irrelevant that Palestine was always part of something else, the Palestinians have always lived there. The Turks wanted to keep Syria, Palestine and the Sinai after WW1. Before the Balfour Declaration was signed, the British had already promised Palestine to Arabs as an independent state and also promised the French government that it would be an internationally administered zone. The British made three promises, they reneged on two.

The British wanted to exit the Mandate, jewish terrorism was rampant, they panicked after WW2 and threw the mess at the UN to sort out. The Arab nations surrounding Palestinie were ignored, they didn't want a jewish state in their midst. If they had been listened to a lot of the mess we are in today would never have happened. Creating Israel was a knee jerk reaction to the events which occurred during WW2, it is the single largest mistake the UN has ever made.

My explanation is not biased, it's what actually happened, I just simplified it. Your explanation looks like it came out of the Zionism for Dummies instruction manual.

Today Israel is committing a genocide, the intention is to ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians, the Palestinians aren't leaving because they know if they go they will never be allowed back. There is no reason for the continued destruction of Gaza, the IDF has destroyed everything, making Gaza uninhabitable, the problem is it hasn't worked, the Palestinians aren't leaving and the world is seeing Israel for it it, a brutal colonial oppressor. If the US stopped vetoing every UN resolution on Israel they would be sanctioned and embargoed, they would be treated like South Africa was.

 

[Design FIRST]

If there had to be a country created for the Jews the fairest option would have been taking a chunk of Germany.

I've been following this thread, yet have refrained from joining an attempted discourse that is so extremely emotionally charged. Anonymity on a forum that features an international audience leaves us unaware of who on these forums actually have truly palpable "skin in this game" or are just waxing opinionated, both sensible as well as nonsensical, sociopolitical lyrical. And in addition, after all, this is a CAR forum.

But this statement catches my eye. Had this option actually come to fruition, post WWII Germany and Europe in general would have profited immensely and may have arguably evolved into a far better place than it is now. The NSDAPs (and not only the NSDAPs) persecution and the genocide committed against Jews can be likened to having self-performed a full frontal lobotomy on onesself. The U.S., with the largest population of Ashkenazim, has profited significantly from an influx of European Ashkenazic Jews in terms of many fields of scientific research and development and many aspects of culture, business enterprise and education.

"Could have and would have" thought on my part, obviously. I just felt compelled to express this-and now, I'm out.

 

[KiwiRob]

I've been following this thread, yet have refrained from joining an attempted discourse that is so extremely emotionally charged. Anonymity on a forum that features an international audience leaves us unaware of who on these forums actually have truly palpable "skin in this game" or are just waxing opinionated, both sensible as well as nonsensical, sociopolitical lyrical. And in addition, after all, this is a CAR forum.

But this statement catches my eye. Had this option actually come to fruition, post WWII Germany and Europe in general would have profited immensely and may have arguably evolved into a far better place than it is now. The NSDAPs (and not only the NSDAPs) persecution and the genocide committed against Jews can be likened to having self-performed a full frontal lobotomy on onesself. The U.S., with the largest population of Ashkenazim, has profited significantly from an influx of European Ashkenazic Jews in terms of many fields of scientific research and development and many aspects of culture, business enterprise and education.

"Could have and would have" thought on my part, obviously. I just felt compelled to express this-and now, I'm out.

Its quite logical, Germans committed the atrocity and they should have had to pay for it. A jewish homeland carved out of Germany would have made sense, the Germans were not in a position where they could object to it.

 

[Matski]

Its quite logical, Germans committed the atrocity and they should have had to pay for it. A jewish homeland carved out of Germany would have made sense, the Germans were not in a position where they could object to it.

Is a Jewish homeland in Europe what the Jews actually wanted? I thought part of the big deal about the Palestinian territory was the proximity to the Holy Lands.

 

[Design FIRST]

A jewish homeland carved out of Germany would have made sense..

Legions of German Jews indeed considered Germany their homeland prior to the rise of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Germanys Jewish population was for the very largest part non-orthodox liberal reformist. Their culture was deeply integrated, deeply intertwined with that of Germany as a country. Their contributions were immense. Prior to the rise of the Nazis, Germany was a far safer haven for Jews and Jewish culture than a number of countries located in central and eastern Europe. Yiddish is a language that is some 80%+ comprised of standard German and dialects. Until quite recently, German Jews as well as those who immigrated to Germany (rather than Israel or the U.S.) following the collapse of the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact felt comfortable, secure and flourished in Germany. That began to change rapidly as of 2013/2014 and their distress only appears to grow and grow. And far too few in Germanys decision making processes as well as gentile native Germans appear to acknowlege this. It is a tragedy in itself. And an extremely disturbing, highly reprehensible refection on modern German society as a whole.

Excuse me. I'm starting to dig more deeply into this than I had ever intended. I suppose that I too am emotionally invested.

 

[KiwiRob]

Is a Jewish homeland in Europe what the Jews actually wanted? I thought part of the big deal about the Palestinian territory was the proximity to the Holy Lands.

Beggars can’t be choosers, better to have given them a chunk of Germany than the mess we have in Palestine today. The next issue is why should any people be given a country based of a made up book?

 

[KiwiRob]

Legions of German Jews indeed considered Germany their homeland prior to the rise of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Germanys Jewish population was for the very largest part non-orthodox liberal reformist. Their culture was deeply integrated, deeply intertwined with that of Germany as a country. Their contributions were immense. Prior to the rise of the Nazis, Germany was a far safer haven for Jews and Jewish culture than a number of countries located in central and eastern Europe. Yiddish is a language that is some 80%+ comprised of standard German and dialects. Until quite recently, German Jews as well as those who immigrated to Germany (rather than Israel or the U.S.) following the collapse of the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact felt comfortable, secure and flourished in Germany. That began to change rapidly as of 2013/2014 and their distress only appears to grow and grow. And far too few in Germanys decision making processes as well as gentile native Germans appear to acknowlege this. It is a tragedy in itself. And an extremely disturbing, highly reprehensible refection on modern German society as a whole.

Excuse me. I'm starting to dig more deeply into this than I had ever intended. I suppose that I too am emotionally invested.

Tbf I never really cared much about the situation until early this year, since then I’ve taken an interest in the regions history and read as much as I can about the history of the conflict.

I find it fascinating that anyone can look at what has happened to the Palestinians and think it’s ok.

 

[Design FIRST]

I find it fascinating that anyone can look at what has happened to the Palestinians and think it’s ok.

No, it is not "okay". Nor is the rapid upward spiral of anti Jewish sentiment (note anti-JEWISH) that has become increasingly virulent, increasingly ferocious in Europe, North America and elsewhere.

Geez, now I am violating my own resolution to steer way clear of politics on these discussion boards. I REALLY need to get a grip on myself and STFU.

 

[martinbo]

The problem is that, for as far back as we can look with any reliable historical record is that there is NOTHING right about any of this.
Humanity's predisposition to atrocity remains our greatest of many, many failings. We're a f#cking horrible species, who as supposedly of higher cognitive function, will kill innocent people even (and especially) children.

This God-awful humanitarian crisis is a prime example of two wrongs (in perpetuity) not making a right.

A not particularly intellectual reverse sequence of events (with huge big holes)

• Israel is currently committing genocide of innocent Palestinians in Gaza in retaliation to terrorist organisation Hamas' actions. Israel's response is underscored by its belief in its right to defend itself
• Hamas incursions into Israel and kidnaps and murders innocent civilians, including women and children - they poked the bear (be careful what you ask for...)
  
  
• [Decades of Arab-Israeli / Israeli-Palestinian conflict]
  
  
• Displaced Palestinians have their land stolen from them
• Jews are given land appropriated by an international "union"
• The Jewish nation rightly should have their own land and sovereignty
• The holocaust is one of the greatest atrocities in human history - a racist, fascist ethnical cleansing of unimaginable horror and cruelty
• The Jewish nation with no homeland is stateless and has assimilated highly successfully into other countries e.g. those in Europe incl. Germany
  
  
• [Centuries of conflict / displacement / diaspora - all in the name of religion]

 

[SKY]

The first Aliyah was in 1881, that's not even close to a century before 1947. In 1881 there were 24000 jews living in Palestine quite happily with 276000 Palestinians, that's not low in population, you're buying into 'the land without a people for a people without a land' lie. By 1947 the population was 630000 jews and 1,3m Palestinians, in 1948 the population was 716000 jews, 156000 Palestinians. If you don't see what is wrong with this you're blind. The build up of the jewsih population in Palestine was niot a slow process, it was pretty rapid.

Jewish & Non-Jewish Population of Israel/Palestine (1517-Present)

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Why should the jews have Palestine, it wasn't there's, Palestinians had been living there for thousands of years. Palestinians were there when Jesus is alleged to have lived, the inconvenient truth is they were originally Jews, they converted and became the first Christians, 600 years later many converted to Islam, Palestinians are the indigenous people of the region, along with the 24000 jews that were living there before the mass migration of jews from Europe occurred.

It's irrelevant that Palestine was always part of something else, the Palestinians have always lived there. The Turks wanted to keep Syria, Palestine and the Sinai after WW1. Before the Balfour Declaration was signed, the British had already promised Palestine to Arabs as an independent state and also promised the French government that it would be an internationally administered zone. The British made three promises, they reneged on two.

The British wanted to exit the Mandate, jewish terrorism was rampant, they panicked after WW2 and threw the mess at the UN to sort out. The Arab nations surrounding Palestinie were ignored, they didn't want a jewish state in their midst. If they had been listened to a lot of the mess we are in today would never have happened. Creating Israel was a knee jerk reaction to the events which occurred during WW2, it is the single largest mistake the UN has ever made.

My explanation is not biased, it's what actually happened, I just simplified it. Your explanation looks like it came out of the Zionism for Dummies instruction manual.

Today Israel is committing a genocide, the intention is to ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians, the Palestinians aren't leaving because they know if they go they will never be allowed back. There is no reason for the continued destruction of Gaza, the IDF has destroyed everything, making Gaza uninhabitable, the problem is it hasn't worked, the Palestinians aren't leaving and the world is seeing Israel for it it, a brutal colonial oppressor. If the US stopped vetoing every UN resolution on Israel they would be sanctioned and embargoed, they would be treated like South Africa was.

I believe we are not even going to agree on the maths here.

Let's take your numbers as valid. You are stating that the movement of c.600k people in c.70 years is fast? Just in the first half of 2024, >25k immigrants from Africa have arrived to Spain. And again, what would you do with immigrants traveling to a region if they buy lands? Would you restrict it? And if they don't acquire lands and just move to that region? Do you ban them? If yes, would you do the same with all the immigrants from Africa moving nowadays to Europe?

You mention the Palestinians living there for thousands of years. I guess you also know what was the name that part of the world had back in the Roman Empire days. It was not Palestine, but Judaea. Imagine why was that. So let's not pretend the Jews chose that part of the world to be for a reason. Jews have been expelled from almost every country (including mine) and mistreated for centuries. Which obviously gives them no right to do the same with others now. But since you clearly refuse to mention this on any of your interventions, it might be good that someone does.

Regarding the Arab region opinion. What were they going to say? In case you have not noticed, Arabs don't want Jews on that part of the world. What is the solution proposed by Iran to the Palestinian conflict? Let's say the international community prevails and a two-state solution is finally reached. We don't have a single evidence the Arab world is going to accept it. Cause talks have already been there, and they did not move forward for a reason (let me guess, all your recent research in the last year points to the blame being on the US and the west in general).

I would have never given a state to a group of individuals based on their religion. I am not a religious person, nor am I Jew, so maybe I lack the sensitivity here. But once it has been done, and taking into account in the other side of the conflict we have not only innocent civilians dying by the hand of Israel, but also terrorists which once were elected by the Palestinians and also some of the worst enemies of freedom in the world (like Iran or Russia), writing about the conflict only mentioning the evil Jews just screams antisemitism IMO.

The problem is that, for as far back as we can look with any reliable historical record is that there is NOTHING right about any of this.
Humanity's predisposition to atrocity remains our greatest of many, many failings. We're a f#cking horrible species, who as supposedly of higher cognitive function, will kill innocent people even (and especially) children.

This God-awful humanitarian crisis is a prime example of two wrongs (in perpetuity) not making a right.

A not particularly intellectual reverse sequence of events (with huge big holes)

• Israel is currently committing genocide of innocent Palestinians in Gaza in retaliation to terrorist organisation Hamas' actions. Israel's response is underscored by its belief in its right to defend itself
• Hamas incursions into Israel and kidnaps and murders innocent civilians, including women and children - they poked the bear (be careful what you ask for...)
  
  
• [Decades of Arab-Israeli / Israeli-Palestinian conflict]
  
  
• Displaced Palestinians have their land stolen from them
• Jews are given land appropriated by an international "union"
• The Jewish nation rightly should have their own land and sovereignty
• The holocaust is one of the greatest atrocities in human history - a racist, fascist ethnical cleansing of unimaginable horror and cruelty
• The Jewish nation with no homeland is stateless and has assimilated highly successfully into other countries e.g. those in Europe incl. Germany
  
  
• [Centuries of conflict / displacement / diaspora - all in the name of religion]

A fantastic and brief summary of the conflict. I would change nothing from this post by Martin. Basically cause I see no hate on it, which is what seems to be present in most of the discourse around this conflict.

 

[Design FIRST]

I cannot help but once again interject.

The increasingly putrid stench of anti-Jewish (again, note anti-JEWISH) sentiment in Europe and North America leave these continents squandering what could be (or what COULD HAVE BEEN) epic opportunities. Among the globes highest in terms of education, culture pertaining to not only fine arts, cutting edge technological competence and entrepreneurial acumen, Ashkenazic, as well as Sephardim and Mizrahim Jews could have immensely benefitted these continents. And it was not very long ago when very large numbers of Ashkenazic Jews entertained the thought of leaving Israel in favour of less teacherous pastures. Fatigued by an environment of constant threat in a highly volatile, hostile neighborhood and the often estranging corruption witnessed in state governance, Europe (despite the weather) and North America became viable options. Alas, this has all progressively evaporated, especially from the years 2013/2014 onwards. Hatred willingly imported accompanied the not so latent apprehension of Jews displayed by academics, educators and their followers situated on the left-to-far left of the sociopolitical spectrum. Add this to the toxic neo-Nazi vitriol that has been more recently rearing its ugly head.

This is as tragic as it is utterly disgusting and immensely stupid. My country, Germany, has progressively become a prime example of Absurdistan. And I suspect that this can be witnessed elsewhere in Europe as well.

 

[Design FIRST]

Humanity's predisposition to atrocity remains our greatest of many, many failings. We're a f#cking horrible species.

This.

I say, seek "Godliness" in the wonders of nature. Not in doctrines or scriptures constructed by man. Not in missionizing. Decency and benevolence lie deep in our human nature, but have progressively eroded into something close to nothing, it often seems.