Phoenix Rising? (Possibly?)

[Human]

Vw / audi

Oh yes! This topic reminds me of another thing. I just read that there is the posibility of a Bugatti sedan that could be on show at the Frankfurt Motorshow. The VW Group has more cutomer related SPORT in their lineup than BMW! ....Bugatti,Lamborghini, R8 and if you look way down the line...Passat Coupe and Scirocco....What about Merc investing in the SLR replacement and soon to be launched SLC.

THAT IS MONEY WELL SPEND BY YOUR GERMAN 'COMPETITORS' BMW!!

And I AM a BMW fanatic....with constructive critisism....on spendig badly invested F1 money!

 

[EnI]

7er GT ... aka Project "Gran Turismo" ... aka BMW CS Concept.


BMW's third attempt to offer a proper mix of luxury & sports. First one was the E31 8er, and the other one was the E52 Z8. Both attempts were not a great success.

The problem is that BMW brand isn't exclusive enough to be able to sell high-end cars in sufficient quantities to make a project profitable. They can't compete with eg. Aston Martin, Jaguar, Porsche, and Mercedes-Benz when coming to luxurious sports cars ...

Therefore 7er GT project was axed (actually sedated - since the project is still listed as "ACTIVE") - since the profitability was an issue. Yes, the company can easily pour some extra money into the project, develop the car, and sell it with loss. Making in a "pure promotional object" - a marketing expense. Like eg. Alfa did with 8C, Audi with R8, Toyota/Lexus with LF-A, Nissan with GT-R, MB with SLR & SLS & BS series etc. Image building products.

When deciding (few years back) whether to offer a supercar, or a luxury coupe - BMW marketing guys & the Board opted for luxury coupe ... positioned above 7er ... the final bridge to Rolls-Royce brand. And to make the car as much sporty as possible, they named M development chief Richter (and his M team) to run the project. With all the M & Individual resources available. But as said - crisis kicked in - and they slowed down the project since it would not be profitable. And they need money for other projects - so the image building car will have to wait for a while.

Regarding supercar ... BMW are aware that now-and-then they need to offer a racing oriented car. An image building car - in pure racing sense. A big 2-seater roadster / coupe was planned (Z8 successor) but axed - since the demand for such cars was dropping sharply. Also in this transition times (when drive tech is changing), they decided to wait till the tech is ready, and then the car will be developed - to showcase the Eco Racer ...

In the meantime there is a good possibility BMW will offer a street-legal M3 GT4 car - based on a racing GT4 car (the one for external racing teams which is now in development).
A total bad-ass M3 ... A very limited edition ... racing oriented ... without many convenience parts & features ... something similar to M3 CSL but even meaner. Featuring racing-oriented engine --- the final tribute to NA engines. The car will be one of those "Yes we can!" products.

So, yes ... there are many plans ... but there is no enough money right now ... and the Board has tao prioritize. Which means: assuring future profitability, so there will be money for promotional products as well (or you can call them vanity projects).

Btw, there was a suggestion (which was rejected) to pull BMW from F1 ... engage in some cheaper car-based series ... and put the rest of the F1-planned-money into some image-building project. But it was said F1 was still a strategic investment for BMW ... As it is sailing / yachtsports. It has much to do being kind of a tech-lab (light weight materials, prototyping, aerodynamics, drive & powertrain components, software, etc).

But ... the time when BMW will offer a supercar, a bad-ass street-legal racing car, a luxury coupe above 7er etc, racing oriented small cars (1er, Z2 etc) ... But we'll have to wait for a while ... Automotive business (at least in BMW AG case - where shareholder structure is rock steady) is a long distance run. Consistency & focus & prioritizing are very important. Sometimes it seems the focus is lost, consistency isn't there anymore, and priorities are all wrong .... but when the time passes by the picture is becoming clearer & clearer. Is BMW doing it right? Wait & you'll see ... Is it all rosy? Certainly not ... but the homework was done, much know-how was invested, and there is a certain confidence the set path is right - and it can be modified if needed ... it's a dynamic process.

 

[aleks_16]

^Thats means nothing new,special, from BMW in the next 5 or 6 years
OH yes Audi can build and sell a luxury A7 sorry i have forgot that Audi is the number 1 premium brand in the world

 

[Human]

Thank you for the detail Eni

I understand and beleive me it is just as important to me as a BMW owner and fanatic that the BMW brand survive on it's own as a German brand and manufacturer - we do not want a GM or takeover! That would be a automotive disaster e.g. DaimlerChrysler

But I know that you know why we feel the way we feel, that is why you explained it all. It's just like life itself, all about BALANCE! We as BMW fans and owners my feel neglected without having a real bad-ass supercar with a BMW badge and innovative BMW engineering.....

For the time being....Sustainable growth and profits whilst surviving the current economic downturn and emerging a independable, self sustained brand and company we can all still be proud of....not a Jaquar owned by TATA! HAHAHAHA...That is the BMW way!

 

[Mr Robert]

In the meantime there is a good possibility BMW will offer a street-legal M3 GT4 car - based on a racing GT4 car (the one for external racing teams which is now in development).
A total bad-ass M3 ... A very limited edition ... racing oriented ... without many convenience parts & features ... something similar to M3 CSL but even meaner. Featuring racing-oriented engine --- the final tribute to NA engines. The car will be one of those "Yes we can!" products.

This is just the kind of product I have been talking about here for some time now.

 

[EnI]

Imagine ... BMW not taking a risk ... with controversial Bangle designs & controversial tech (eg. iDrive).

Imagine ... E65 7er, E60 5er, E85 Z4, E63 6er etc being just another evolutionary approach ... with standard tech inside. Very smooth transition.

Where would that put BMW brand ... among the rising threats from the competitors (Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, MB) ...

There would be a great threat BMW could become a gray mouse ... not having extra publicity & exposure that happened with Bangled designs & iDrive ... when BMW was in the spotlight all the time. And still is. Much more than other brands.

And then imagine BMW being forced to make bolder moves now - with this generation - in the middle of the economic crisis. A much riskier experiment, that could end very badly.

Yes, Bangled generation does not feature some special halo product like the BMW generations did before ... M1, 8er, Z8, M3 CSL ... But as you can see the new generation is much more active in this aspect: a plan to offer 7er GT sedan-coupe, ideas of offering Eco supercar, bad-ass 1ers, small nimble roadster etc.

So, the upcoming generation is much more promisin than the current one - which cen end up having special member as well in the portfolio: street-legal M3 GT4. Just for the sake of it - even if only 5 examples are built.

But, yes ... as far the forecast indicates ... there better times coming for the BMW enthusiasts with year 2012 and beyond. But until then there will be Concept cars only ... showcasing the new path. So, 3 or 4 years of waiting (with exception of M3 GT4 - if it happened at all).

 

[SKY]

But EnI, Z2 and supersporty 1er make sense with the things you are saying, but even in a 4 years time, 7er GT will not be a profitable product for BMW (acording with wht you have said). It seems it is just a matter of prestige, and I can´t stand why, as I´ve always seen BMW as prestigious as Mercedes, maybe because since I was a child my father told me this.

But what is true is that I´ve never seen the sme numer of 7er than of S-Class, I´ve seen maybe 2 or 3 760i or 760Li in my life, and I use to go to some very rich res specially in the summer. And instead of that, I see plenty of S-Class AMG, Bentley Continental GT, even RR or S8.

I understand what you say because I can see it with my own eyes, but why I can´t stand is why. The CS is probably the nicest design I´ve seen in a veeeery long time, but proced t 200K € I´m sure I wuldn´t sell as much as an S65 AMG.

Oh and btw, it´s ironical that the new BMW flagship is planned to be a car of a segment Mercedes-Benz created, How can this be? .

 

[Betty Swollocks]

This is a different Scott, the writing styles are different.
But I understand what you mean.

It WAS the (T) Scott. Guido was away on holiday for a week.

 

[EnI]

The problem with 7er GT is too low profitability. Really marginal one compared to eg. other profit margins. With a possibility of even making a loss -since there is a huge drop in demand for luxury cars right now.

In the next years the demand will increase again, and more importantly: BMW will have more money generated by other profitable products like X6, 5er GT, X1, new X3, new 1er etc. Therefore they will be able to invest more into image building marketing projects / products ... despite product's lower profit margin.

But right now money is an issue ... demand dropped for about 20% on annual level ... revenues are lower, costs are high, profits are gone, cash revenues are melting.

Absolutely no time for vanity projects ... Mind the projects like 5er GT, X5M / X6M, Panamera, A7 SB, SLS, R8 spyder etc. were greenlighted way back before the crisis kicked in, and were very deep in development - so it was better for the companies to launch these projects than cancel them. But the projects at the very beginning of the development (eg. 7er GT etc) were put on hold. Until the crisis settles, and financial conditions are better ...

 

[klier]

So, the upcoming generation is much more promisin than the current one - which cen end up having special member as well in the portfolio: street-legal M3 GT4. Just for the sake of it - even if only 5 examples are built.

This is just wishful thinking of your part? Maybe trying to make the crying fans happy or something??
I haven't read anything about that. I did read BMW will very likely offer a true M version of the next gen 1er.

 

[Human]

The problem with 7er GT is too low profitability. Really marginal one compared to eg. other profit margins. With a possibility of even making a loss -since there is a huge drop in demand for luxury cars right now.

In the next years the demand will increase again, and more importantly: BMW will have more money generated by other profitable products like X6, 5er GT, X1, new X3, new 1er etc. Therefore they will be able to invest more into image building marketing projects / products ... despite product's lower profit margin.

But right now money is an issue ... demand dropped for about 20% on annual level ... revenues are lower, costs are high, profits are gone, cash revenues are melting.

Absolutely no time for vanity projects ... Mind the projects like 5er GT, X5M / X6M, Panamera, A7 SB, SLS, R8 spyder etc. were greenlighted way back before the crisis kicked in, and were very deep in development - so it was better for the companies to launch these projects than cancel them. But the projects at the very beginning of the development (eg. 7er GT etc) were put on hold. Until the crisis settles, and financial conditions are better ...

Oh boy! Am I glad the X6/X5M & 5er GT got the greenlight!! WHOOOHOOO

 

[Betty Swollocks]

This is just wishful thinking of your part? Maybe trying to make the crying fans happy or something??
I haven't read anything about that. I did read BMW will very likely offer a true M version of the next gen 1er.

You have to remember there is an awful lot of rhetoric and spin posted by certain members on here, such as Eni and Scott (whoever that happens to be at the time) and it does leave a sour taste in my mouth sometimes as I feel it's subliminal in a way. An advertisement on the TV, a billboard, is clearly an advertisement. But posting on an internet forum, it's easy to forget that they are BMW employees, and certainly in Scott's case, the main aim is the promotion and marketing of BMW. Take every post with a pinch of salt and you won't go far wrong.

 

[EnI]

I'm certainly not a BMW employee! Never was!

My involvement in CM is on very different level than the eg. SCOTT involvement.

The point of CM is creativeness. meaning the operating rules & frames are very loose.

Not necessary all members of CM are BMW employees. Many CM activities are outsourced. Or even outsourced from outsources. Etc.

Info is done, some background is explained, and then CM members are free to use all the creative resources available.

What makes CM so special is the blurriness of the whole project ... gray field activities ... semi-officialness. Ask some BMW marketing official about the Creative Marketing project, and all you'll get is "Zee vaat?" and a huge grin.

It's a very special beast ... fed by BMW info.

 

[klier]

So now we have two threads (F10 one too) going completely OT with BMW creative marketing talk....? Niiiiiiice

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Not necessary all members of CM are BMW employees. Many CM activities are outsourced. Or even outsourced from outsources. Etc.

We're talking semantics here. So contractors are involved in the marketing aswell. It's still the same result though.

What makes CM so special is the blurriness of the whole project ... gray field activities ... semi-officialness. Ask some BMW marketing official about the Creative Marketing project, and all you'll get is "Zee vaat?" and a huge grin.

It's a very special beast ... fed by BMW info.

Which is precisely my point. When it's semi-official you lose the defined boundaries and the consumer starts to feel like they are part of the 'game' too which, as I've already stated, makes them feel uneasy. Like they are being played with. A classic example is the talk of the CS concept being resurrected. How can anybody believe what any of the CM department are saying? We don't know. If you stick a vague rumour on a forum that it might produce a series vehicle then it creates debate. Doesn't mean it's going to happen or even whether the story is true in the first place.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

So now we have two threads (F10 one too) going completely OT with BMW creative marketing talk....? Niiiiiiice

But it's not OT Klier. This thread is about the possible resurrection of the CS Concept. In my opinion this is CM at it's finest (or worst, whichever viewpoint you take).

Remember what CM job is and who Scott, at least, is. It seems 90% of the people on this forum either have no clue or forget.

 

[Mr Robert]

Even if there will only be a very limited run for the M3 GT4, it will show the world what BMW is all about. Smart move to start making a vehicle for competition only and then pretend there is such a demand for a street product among the enthusiasts that a street version will be made. BMW will then have created an artificial demand that will get huge coverage in the motoring press, resulting in real demand for this type of products, maybe not as extreme, more in the lines of the last CSL, and all this right before the next M3 is signed off... brilliant.

 

[Giannis]

Could it be something like this?

BMW S.X. Concept

 

[south]

Therefore 7er GT project was axed (actually sedated - since the project is still listed as "ACTIVE") - since the profitability was an issue. Yes, the company can easily pour some extra money into the project, develop the car, and sell it with loss. Making in a "pure promotional object" - a marketing expense. Like eg. Alfa did with 8C, Audi with R8, Toyota/Lexus with LF-A, Nissan with GT-R, MB with SLR & SLS & BS series etc. Image building products.

I can't value the other examples, but that's not the true for the R8 and you likely know that. The R8 is a commercial success.

Regarding supercar ... BMW are aware that now-and-then they need to offer a racing oriented car. An image building car - in pure racing sense. A big 2-seater roadster / coupe was planned (Z8 successor) but axed - since the demand for such cars was dropping sharply. Also in this transition times (when drive tech is changing), they decided to wait till the tech is ready, and then the car will be developed - to showcase the Eco Racer ...

A "big 2 seater" is not what I'd consider being a supercar. The last Z8 was great and stunning, but by no means a supercar.

In the meantime there is a good possibility BMW will offer a street-legal M3 GT4 car - based on a racing GT4 car (the one for external racing teams which is now in development).
A total bad-ass M3 ... A very limited edition ... racing oriented ... without many convenience parts & features ... something similar to M3 CSL but even meaner. Featuring racing-oriented engine --- the final tribute to NA engines. The car will be one of those "Yes we can!" products.

That's great. Though, I doubt that a series of 5 cars costing somewhat like 150-200k € each will have a big impact on the public perception. There's a reason why people are still talking about the E46 M3 CSL and not so about the E46 M3 GTR.

Yes, Bangled generation does not feature some special halo product like the BMW generations did before ... M1, 8er, Z8, M3 CSL ... But as you can see the new generation is much more active in this aspect: a plan to offer 7er GT sedan-coupe, ideas of offering Eco supercar, bad-ass 1ers, small nimble roadster etc.

So, the upcoming generation is much more promisin than the current one - which cen end up having special member as well in the portfolio: street-legal M3 GT4. Just for the sake of it - even if only 5 examples are built.

As long as this new generation is just existing on some drawing boards, I can't see how it could be promising.



Best regards,
south

 

[aleks_16]

Hmmm is the phoenix rising or not Tell us something new scott or maybe eni has new info