Official Thread [Official] MINI Electric Concept


Except I am not making them up. These patterns I listed are not some figment of my imagination. I didn't come up with it. They are well studied, researched phenomena that is well documented by economists. There are many published work on the same, the most famous one being "The Innovator's Dilemma" by Clayton M. Christensen. You should read it. This is not a new or rare thing either - most established companies fail to react in time technological disruption. It is the rule rather than the exception. It doesn't take any imagination or logical leaps to see the same happening atBMW/other legacy manufacturers

I'm not suggesting the concepts behind distruptive technology vs legacy technology aren't valid, but I am suggesting that BMW is not 100% at the mercy of such change. I will keep this in the context BMW because I agree that some of the less premium manufacturers don't generate enough profit on current business to remain viable, let alone handle the significant shifts in the decades to come.

BMW set up Project-i in 2007 because as had become apparent, battery technology had reached a point where it was becoming viable to produce an electric car that wasn't total shit. It was at this point BMW very clearly accepted that the future was sustainable mobility... not selling ICE power cars. The rate of development since, I maintain, has been dictated by what they can bring to market at a market price and profitability that matches what they do at the moment.

There are also external influences that can reasonably rigidly dictate how steep the S curve can be with new tech, and that's infrastructure in the case of EV's. If infrastructure can only improve at a given rate, that has to be a factor in how quickly you bring a product to market. Superficially that's charging networks, but the underlying thing their is national energy infrastructure. I'll quote Cashmere here because it's a sensible enough statement, but for ICE sales to "drop off a cliff by 2021" (i.e. in the next 18 months), energy distribution and production needs to climb one. As EnI points out the real disruptor here is government legislation, they can make the laws, but for manufacturers to meet them, they're dependent on the same governments to provide energy infrastucture to meet the massive increased demand they are legislating for.

"now" in relation to when? If you think I am claiming you can start a venture and turn profit on day 1 or even year 1 you are grossly misstating. Like any venture, it takes investment, time and effort before your can reap the benefits. Having done that, yes they could be selling EV profitably "now".

No intention to misstate anything, I'm keeping this in the context of existing OEM's that essentially have a significant head start on new Ventures. I'm saying "Now" in relation to the launch of the electric Mini since that appeared to be your catalyst for questioning the validity of such a product.

Who says nobody is doing it?Tesla is selling their cars at a profit. The gross margin on the Model 3 is ~20+% on average price of $55000. Believe it is even higher for Model S/X. It is a different matter the company chose to invest that (and more) back into growing it's business vs paying dividend.
Link in case it works - Here’s HowTesla Can Keep Model 3 Profit Margins Up

If it's 20% on 55k (11k) then it's no wonder Musk admits it would've killed Tesla to sell them at his goal of 35k, which is one of those benchmark statements Musk should be judged by, IMHO - becuase admitting you're wrong AFTER manipulating the market doesn't make it ok. The fact is Tesla has yet to demonstrate a sustainable business case for what it does is indisputable to me, it may well come, but it hasn't happened yet. Raising money from legitimising those polluting combustion engine sales for FCA, and further share issues are representative of opportunism, not sustainability.

In US, you can buy a $40,000 ($36,250 after tax rebate) model 3 with 240 mile EPA range today. I can't buy aBMW EV with 200 mile range for any amount. So not sure what your point is. No one is criticizingBMW for not selling a $35000 EV, they are not even selling one with decent range for even $70000.

My point is that 3 years after going on sale the car is only just materialising in the UK... and I'd question why... is it because of "an exec's aversion to risking failure and losing his contract renewal, a manager's fear of losing his annual bonus, an engineer's deep conviction what he knows is the best, a worker's fear of being outside the comfort zone" or is it because "sufficient market demand and sufficient resource supply to do it profitably and sustainably" took years to become (even remotely) real (and at this point there's STILL question marks over battery supply viability for Tesla - and they've supposedly got this shit nailed and are only serving a tiny, tiny percent of the Automotive market)



I think fundamentally neither of us disagree on where the future lies, it seems we just disagree on the gradient of that S-curve, I'm literally in pain typing out this post, and one-fingered left hand typing means it's taken well over an hour to do so... so I suggest we revisit this thread in.. say... 2025 and see how things transpired, and not fall out in the meantime, I'm not up to multi-quote jousts at this point in time! (y)
 
so I suggest we revisit this thread in.. say... 2025 and see how things transpired, and not fall out in the meantime, I'm not up to multi-quote jousts at this point in time!
Don't agree with pretty much most of your post but this. So, yes, get well, and we can continue in 2025. :cheers:
 
There are also external influences that can reasonably rigidly dictate how steep the S curve can be with new tech, and that's infrastructure in the case of EV's. If infrastructure can only improve at a given rate, that has to be a factor in how quickly you bring a product to market. Superficially that's charging networks, but the underlying thing their is national energy infrastructure. energy distribution and production needs to climb one. As EnI points out the real disruptor here is government legislation, they can make the laws, but for manufacturers to meet them, they're dependent on the same governments to provide energy infrastucture to meet the massive increased demand they are legislating for.

Haha, gotta love how your endless list always finds some new reason for why EVs wont work. Now it’s the grid that’s not ready :LOL: I understand your hatred for Tesla and how you can’t stomach change but please don’t spread misinformation.

Let’s take a look at Norway since it has the highest number of EV cars in the world. According to the Norwegian government, even if every car on their road was turned into an electric car they would not have to make any hardware upgrades to their existing grid (since most evs can be scheduled to charge at night). In fact, they would save 11 Billion NOK. See source below:

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Inspite of EVs growing on the road and coal plants shutting down, the electric grid in your own motherland is scaling upwards annually with more power output while simultaneously becoming cleaner with decreasing reliance on fossil juice.

E5340548-BC41-477B-8335-ECA11FDAE351.webp



Also happening in your back yard which you may have missed - several European countries are joining forces and have already started building the worlds largest power plant in the North Sea using clean wind energy. This power station will deliver 180 GW of energy (comparatively, the current largest power plant is China’s three gorges dam which generates 22.5 GW of energy through Hyrdo). Even though the North Sea power plant is still under construction, its already generating 13 GW of operational energy today and will be complete by 2030. Plans below:

35872038-2AB0-45A9-BFC6-13648ACAE91D.webp


28A18984-50C2-461F-B462-66F38D2FDD68.webp


And this what the final plant will look like when it’s ready in 2030

0DA67FB6-A2CF-4DE4-89F1-4A2F9BA3A6FB.webp


So please tell me more - I would love to hear from you and Eni about how we’re waiting for govt legislation and the grid to catch up ?
 
Haha, gotta love how your endless list always finds some new reason for why EVs wont work.

Err... straw-man. Where did I say EV's won't work? As I've repeatedly attempted to make clear, my issue with electrification isn't with principle of it, its green credentials, or even the long term viability. It's the predictions people are making in the short and even medium term about the rate of uptake.

Also, FWIW Norway already generates 4-5 times the energy per capita than we do and has a new car market 1/16th the size, what they can achieve and what the UK can achieve is not really analogous. I'm happy that we're taking big strides towards renewables as a nation, coal is mostly taken care of, natural gas will be next, but we're still a net importer of energy. Green energy is good but what we're doing at the moment is replacing existing non-renewable sources with better ones, not significantly increasing our overall generation, where it seems we already have a shortfall.
 
The last JP Morgan forecast I saw stated that in 2036 we will have the tipping point: more BEV new car sales than ICEs (also PHEVs). Around 60 million of a total market of about 120M cars.
 
The last JP Morgan forecast I saw stated that in 2036 we will have the tipping point: more BEV new car sales than ICEs (also PHEVs). Around 60 million of a total market of about 120M cars.

Question I have is how do you define "tipping point"? Is it really 50%?

Can the legacy manufacturer's sustain a 50% contraction in their market share? I doubt it. Can they sustain even a 20% contraction? I don't know. As a data point, in 2008, US market contracted by just 18% (due to the housing crisis) and most auto manufacturer's were deep in the red including one going bankrupt.

So unless they have a sizable EV market share to offset the contracting legacy market, I doubt, they can last a 20% market contraction.

Separately, diffusion of innovation theory is a well studied/researched thing and 16% is considered as "crossing the chasm" point when a product goes from early adopters to being main stream. For EVs, California, is forecasted to hit that number by 2022 and US by 2028? China is probably sooner than 2028. Can the legacy guys lose 15% of US and China market and survive?
 
So unless they have a sizable EV market share to offset the contracting legacy market, I doubt, they can last a 20% market contraction.

Unless the entire market contracts that implies someone is going to pick up 20% of the market share, you're implying that the legacy manufacturers won't... so who will?

Even on 2018's numbers that would mean either Tesla, or a new company, manufacturing and selling 17.2 million cars in one year... or about the same as VW, Toyota and Mercedes do combined... I personally see that as unlikely.

The implication being, the market cannot reach that tipping point without some of the Legacy manufacturers on board.

.. if anyone is going to achieve that, **** California, it's going to be China.
 
Chinese market last year was 23 million, 20% is 4.6 million. US market was 17 million, 20% is 3.4. I don't know all the players in China, but I doubt they will have any problem satisfying the Chinese market. And I doubt Tesla (if still around) by 2028 will have any trouble satisfying a sizable portion of the US EV market either.

All legacy guys are not going to sit in the sidelines either. Smart ones offer a competitive EV. The ones who don't will lose 20% of the two biggest markets. If you feel existing major car manufacturer's can thrive losing 20% of US and China market, good for you. I don't happen to think so.

Hence, my original point - IMO, 50% is not a realistic definition of a "tipping" point. That is far too late.



.. if anyone is going to achieve that, **** California, it's going to be China.
Your bitterness towards California is regrettable, but understandable. I would probably feel the same way, if I was living on a wet frozen shit hole.
 
Your bitterness towards California is regrettable, but understandable. I would probably feel the same way, if I was living on a wet frozen shit hole.

Where's the bitterness towards California? Simply pointing out that when it comes to satisfying 20% of even the current global demand (never mind supporting that blue line @tristatez28lt1 posted), what California can achieve is nothing compared to what China can achieve.

If you feel existing major car manufacturer's can thrive losing 20% of US and China market, good for you. I don't happen to think so.

I also think 'thriving' would be somewhat contrary to a 20% drop in demand, I don't think I said otherwise in my post, but even still, I don't think EV will reach the market penetration indicated above without them.
 


THIS!

And this graph coincides with the dates when stricter emission regulations kicks in around the globe. And (legacy) carmakers are planning according to this forecast. Be sure, they will there & ready. I guess a bit quicker & better than planned today. Goals are becoming more ambitious. Targets are set (by countries / states), and carmakers have some time to get ready. And they will. Alone, or together (mergers, acquisitions, collaborations etc).

But do not expect BEVs to be cheap. Especially those with higher range & superfast charging abilities. Also mind subsidies, credits will be gone, and electricity prices will go up. And there will be less BEV models available (at lest in the short- to mid-run) compared to ICEV model availability today. Some brands within big automotive groups could be sold to Chinese (eg like Volvo was), suspended or even killed off - especially in the case of mergers of some big companies.
 
credits will be gone, and electricity prices will go up

This is one thing I'm curious to see how our government handles. We make around £28 Billion a year through direct tax on fuel, and probably ~25-30% of that again via VAT. Loosing that wipes out the equivalent of our goverments entire budget for Transport (Roads, railways etc.) it's a big chunk of revenue that I don't suppose the government is going to let go easily, unless it's mitigated by reductions in spending elsewhere?

One way of offsetting this loss would be to increase VAT on electricity, though I don't think this is fair... or, increase Road fund license for EV's (currently £0), to an amount equivalent to the tax that would have been paid on the fuel... this is fairer, but still not ideal IMHO, so I wonder if this will be the time for the government to finally implement a cost per mile taxation system for cars.
 

This is from Bloomberg. Similar crossover dates. But shows % of annual sales. If this holds, some where, between 2025 and 2030, ICE annual sales drops to 80% of current market. Any major car manufacturer that doesn't have a solid EV market share to offset it, will be in dire straits.
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^ Correct. Here in Holland, Amsterdam will ban all ICE engines in the city from 2030 onwards.

It's really game over for the ICE. I love em to death, but we're near the end of significance.
 
It's at Goodwood in a public closed room. Visually there are Zero surprises. £500 deposit for a build slot. Two people signed up while I was there (the room had some nice cold air blowers so I stuck around for a while), and according to the nice lady that dropped my phone they were into double digits, this was day one. I suspect very low double digits, however.

Only few days away now ... Premiere on July 9th.
 
It's at Goodwood in a public closed room. Visually there are Zero surprises. £500 deposit for a build slot. Two people signed up while I was there (the room had some nice cold air blowers so I stuck around for a while), and according to the nice lady that dropped my phone they were into double digits, this was day one. I suspect very low double digi...

They are showing it also in Berlin in a trendy area.
Sadly goes the days when MINI would have its Berlin previews in Nightclubs. That was the customer in those early days for MINI. Sadly the brand has gone too Millennial. Maybe that explains the Countryman's appearance.(Yes I went there.):D
 
They are showing it also in Berlin in a trendy area.
Sadly goes the days when MINI would have its Berlin previews in Nightclubs. That was the customer in those early days for MINI. Sadly the brand has gone too Millennial. Maybe that explains the Countryman's appearance.(Yes I went there.):D

The Mini 'stand' at the FOS was quite impressive to be honest... I've no idea if it was targeting millenials or not...

... Needed more Dakar MINI in my opinion.
 
The Mini 'stand' at the FOS was quite impressive to be honest... I've no idea if it was targeting millenials or not...

... Needed more Dakar MINI in my opinion.

Was the new GP @ GoodWood? I have seen the finished car.
It's different but promises to be completely insane.
 
Was the new GP @ GoodWood? I have seen the finished car.
It's different but promises to be completely insane.

Yes, still in camo, but as shown recently in the press.

IMG_20190706_090259-1024x768.webp


Think it went up the hill in an untied manufacturer batch also.
 

MINI

Mini (stylized as MINI) is a British automotive brand founded in 1969, owned by German BMW since 2000, and used by them for a range of small cars assembled in the United Kingdom, Austria, and the Netherlands. The word Mini has been used in car model names since 1959, and in 1969 it became a brand in its own right when the name "Mini" replaced the separate "Austin Mini" and "Morris Mini" car model names.
Official website: MINI

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