M3/M4 [Official] BMW M3 Sedan and M4 Coupe

[bimmerjph]

But then again, most cars look good next to a 3er GT...

Yeah, I mean while it doesn't quite make the Pontiac Aztec look good. It improves it enough to the point that I wouldn't want to commit suicide if I owned one.

 

[Deckhook]

No but they are evaluating an M3 Gran Turismo.
The standard car is selling better than initially expected. We will know by late next year for an early 2016 introduction.

Even suggesting such a thing tells me one thing........... the letter M is no longer sacred.

 

[Monster]

Even suggesting such a thing tells me one thing........... the letter M is no longer sacred.

Doesn't seem to bother you much, since you have the M5 on order.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Even suggesting such a thing tells me one thing........... the letter M is no longer sacred.

It stopped being sacred when they brought out the X5 and X6 M.

There is absolutely no reason to make a 3 Series GT. None whatsoever.

 

[Deckhook]

Doesn't seem to bother you much, since you have the M5 on order.

The M5 has almost as long a history as the M3 so I definitely don't class it on par an M3GT.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Will there have a touring version this time around?

Doubtful. They should though based on this edit!

I imagine next up will be the M4 Convertible, then the M4 Gran Coupe.

 

[mini_cooper4]

Doubtful.

Fcuk me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fcuk me Combiiiiiii!!!!!!!

 

[SCOTT27]

Fcuk me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fcuk me Combiiiiiii!!!!!!!

I would love a new M Touring...

 

[mini_cooper4]

I would love a new M Touring...

It's a must IMO! This generation of M3 has a huge potential to look amazing in T form!
M3GT will make me buy a 3rd Benz...

 

[Rainer271]

Here an extract of an interview of BMW M division engineering chief Albert Biermann:

BMW M division engineering chief Albert Biermann has expressed his desire for an M7, although the model isn't currently in the pipeline.

In an interview given to Autocar, BMW's M division boss Albert Biermann talked about a hypothetical M7 and said he would "love to compete in this area of the market." He added such a model would be considerably different than Alpina's B7 but the company has other investment plans.

Instead of a range-topping M7, BMW will spend money in developing all-wheel drive versions of the next-gen M5 and M6, as well as an M version of the 3-Series GT due in 2016. Lastly, X3 and X4 will not receive fully-fledged M versions but they will get M Performance variants.


Source: autocar.co.uk

 

[klier]

^ The plot is lost. Aaaah. No X4 M but 3 GT M? Really, BMW?

 

[330CIZHP]

I understand your point, but the same speculation surrounded the F10 M5 as well where people thought the 7300 rpm F10 M5 V8 will grow on people over time and people would rate it as epic as the E60 S85 V10 was. It never happened. Still, majority of the reviews miss the old V10 and its high-strung nature. The synthesized sound playing through the stereo speaker is something I might want to reserve my comments on.

Redline is just a number. It does not make an engine feel like a race engine automatically. For instance, the Nissan VQ engine has a 7500 rpm redline, but having driven the VQ and S65 engines, I can tell there is no comparison. While the VQ sounds coarse and like a truck engine at 7500 rpm, the S65 high pitched shriek reaching for a crescendo at 7500 rpm is just in a different league.

I have no doubts the S65 V8 will become even more appreciated and legendary once the F30 M3/M4 comes out since it will really make people realize how it does not feel like the S54 or S65.

The S65 was a masterpiece - I can attest to that firsthand - but then so was the S54 and so many other M engines before it. This detraction of a new M3 powerplant is nothing new; many ought to recall how the E92 was panned upon the revelation of the V8. Too heavy, too unresponsive were the musings of the internet punters. It wasn't. It was a brilliant M3 that garnered 5 star reviews from every scribe that mattered.

Why, then, do the detractors once more carry such a weight of opinion? Since when is a BMW straight six engine unworthy? Are their memories so short or mechanical appreciation so limited? This is not just any inline six either. This one has all the makings of being a very, very special engine. I feel that this new twin-turbocharger arrangement will set a new standard in turbo engine responsiveness, the high volumetric flow construction coupled with commensurately capable water-to-air intercooling has all the makings for setting new standards in this discipline.

The S65 was forgiven its relative lack of low-down shove - particularly when measured against against the high-displacement competition from AMG - and lauded for its razor sharp response in the upper reaches of the rev range. So too will this new S55 be forgiven that it loses 800 rpm to its forebear because it will be that much stronger in the rest of the RPM range.

I reckon, by all accounts, that this will once more be an incredible BMW M engine.

 

[martinbo]

I understand your point, but the same speculation surrounded the F10 M5 as well where people thought the 7300 rpm F10 M5 V8 will grow on people over time and people would rate it as epic as the E60 S85 V10 was. It never happened. Still, majority of the reviews miss the old V10 and its high-strung nature. The synthesized sound through the stereo speaker is something I might want to reserve my comments on.

Redline is just a number. It does not make an engine feel like a race engine automatically. For instance, the Nissan VQ engine has a 7500 rpm redline, but having driven the VQ and S65 engines, I can tell there is no comparison. While the VQ sounds coarse and like a truck engine at 7500 rpm, the S65 high pitched shriek reaching for a crescendo at 7500 rpm is just in a different league.

I have no doubts the S65 V8 will become even more appreciated once the F30 M3/M4 comes out since it will really make people realize how it does not feel like the S54 or S65.

To be honest, I don't understand your point.

There's a lot of Internet noise about how BMW products are shadows of their former selves. You're saying that the new S55 won't feel like the S65 and S54 but where did I ever say it would? It's impossible - the S55 is turbocharged and for the first time an M3 will be fitted with forced induction.

What I'm pointing out is that upon reveal, people speculated that the V8 M3 would be shit for reasons stated in my earlier post. It wasn't. Now, people are saying that the lower redline S55 is going to be crap and there's no reason why one should buy a new M3. Naturally aspirated engines will always feel better in a particular regime of engine operation (throttle response, high-rpm adjustability) compared to turbo'd ones but the gap in this area has narrowed considerably even. Turbocharging has huge advantages too; this new M3 has 150 Nm more than the outgoing model and even 50 odd more than the S85. This is going to make for sublime mid-range punch and adjustability.

I remember years ago, one of the most talented drivers I've ever witnessed on the Internet, AdvEvo, and his sublime control of his E46 CSL. This guy totally lamented the advent of the 1M Coupe, voicing stern concerns that it would lack, ultimately in his words, drivability. It didn't. It went on to be one of the most sought after BMW M Cars ever even though it was a bit of a half-breed. It even had - shock horror - a boggo twin-turbo six pot from a hairdresser's car. And then AdvEvo got his. And AdvEvo drove his in the same balls-to-the-wall, arse-out fashion as he always had and even took a few vids. His verdict? Simply gushing with praise. Many other publications soon came to the fore and proclaimed the same - there was nothing wrong with the way the 1M drove and certainly, throttle response was never cast in a critical light. Chris Harris waxed lyrically in his EVO PCotY musings, Sutters had nothing but praise... the list of plaudits goes on...

And all of that was made possible with just a lowly, twin turbo N54 - BMW's first attempted turbopetrol engine in 30 years. Imagine how much better this new, completely M-engineered S55 is going to be with its fancy, high-flow turbos and charge air cooling. An inline six (the perfect engine) to boot! The F80 and F82 aren't part of the E92's lineage - that line ended with the demise of natural aspiration. These cars are the perpetuation of what BMW laid down with the 1M Coupe.

The world has moved on, mainstream performance car turbocharging is becoming increasingly prevalent. Only a handful of lower-volume manufacturers eschew forced induction now.

You're saying that the S63Tu equipped F10 M5 isn't receiving the accolades its forebear did. I just picked up my latest copy of EVO and in the Knowledge section they have this to say in the Saloons / Estates / 4x4s section:

Our choice:
BMW M5. The turbocharging of BMW M-cars met with scepticism, but the current M5's 4.4 litre twin-turbo V8 feels a perfect fit. It's a brutally fast car and there are clever (and useable) adjustable driving modes. It looks cool too. The best big saloon is now even better.

+ Twin-turbocharging suits all-new M5 well
- Can feel heavy at times

Clearly, the turbocharging of the M5 has not diminished its appeal, nor blunted its performance - it's the extra weight that has garnered by far the most criticism - so I see no reason why the new M3 won't take even greater strides forward. Sure, those razor-sharp throttle response days of the S54 and S65 are over; the S55 will give a little in this regard. But, one thing's for sure, the aforementioned are going to feel positively anaemic in comparison.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Yep, what he said! ^

 

[SCOTT27]

^ The plot is lost. Aaaah. No X4 M but 3 GT M? Really, BMW?

Nothing is final, I have seen the study built for evaluation , I have to say it does look good , very broad around the wheel arches , so far it keeps the GT face but the aerodynamic packet is the same , but altered for the GT's higher body.
If you like the MSport packet of the GT? Then I feel you would like this.

X4M is currently up in the air at the moment, if the X4 is a successful launch and has a significant impact on the market , then we will see an X4M. Why? In several priority markets the X6M is the best selling M model. If you bring further accessibility to these markets on a more compact model then the X4M can create a similar level of sales.
A full engineering breakdown of the car has been submitted and yes it is based on the new M3/M4 hence why it has been dubbed as an M3 on stilts.

The next generation BMW X1 is also seriously considering an X1M - the market is moving to compact high performance SUVs and BMW see the new X1 bring something interesting to customers who want a high performance compact SAV.

Between the two , 3er GT and X4?
I would say X4M is more likely. That is what markets would want.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

To be honest, I don't understand your point.

There's a lot of Internet noise about how BMW products are shadows of their former selves. You're saying that the new S55 won't feel like the S65 and S54 but where did I ever say it would? It's impossible - the S55 is turbocharged and for the first time an M3 will be fitted with forced induction.

What I'm pointing out is that upon reveal, people speculated that the V8 M3 would be shit for reasons stated in my earlier post. It wasn't. Now, people are saying that the lower redline S55 is going to be crap and there's no reason why one should buy a new M3. Naturally aspirated engines will always feel better in a particular regime of engine operation (throttle response, high-rpm adjustability) compared to turbo'd ones but the gap in this area has narrowed considerably even. Turbocharging has huge advantages too; this new M3 has 150 Nm more than the outgoing model and even 50 odd more than the S85. This is going to make for sublime mid-range punch and adjustability.

I remember years ago, one of the most talented drivers I've ever witnessed on the Internet, AdvEvo, and his sublime control of his E46 CSL. This guy totally lamented the advent of the 1M Coupe, voicing stern concerns that it would lack, ultimately in his words, drivability. It didn't. It went on to be one of the most sought after BMW M Cars ever even though it was a bit of a half-breed. It even had - shock horror - a boggo twin-turbo six pot from a hairdresser's car. And then AdvEvo got his. And AdvEvo drove his in the same balls-to-the-wall, arse-out fashion as he always had and even took a few vids. His verdict? Simply gushing with praise. Many other publications soon came to the fore and proclaimed the same - there was nothing wrong with the way the 1M drove and certainly, throttle response was never cast in a critical light. Chris Harris waxed lyrically in his EVO PCotY musings, Sutters had nothing but praise... the list of plaudits goes on...

And all of that was made possible with just a lowly, twin turbo N54 - BMW's first attempted turbopetrol engine in 30 years. Imagine how much better this new, completely M-engineered S55 is going to be with its fancy, high-flow turbos and charge air cooling. An inline six (the perfect engine) to boot! The F80 and F82 aren't part of the E92's lineage - that line ended with the demise of natural aspiration. These cars are the perpetuation of what BMW laid down with the 1M Coupe.

The world has moved on, mainstream performance car turbocharging is becoming increasingly prevalent. Only a handful of lower-volume manufacturers eschew forced induction now.

You're saying that the S63Tu equipped F10 M5 isn't receiving the accolades its forebear did. I just picked up my latest copy of EVO and in the Knowledge section they have this to say in the Saloons / Estates / 4x4s section:

Our choice:
BMW M5. The turbocharging of BMW M-cars met with scepticism, but the current M5's 4.4 litre twin-turbo V8 feels a perfect fit. It's a brutally fast car and there are clever (and useable) adjustable driving modes. It looks cool too. The best big saloon is now even better.

+ Twin-turbocharging suits all-new M5 well
- Can feel heavy at times

Clearly, the turbocharging of the M5 has not diminished its appeal, nor blunted its performance - it's the extra weight that has garnered by far the most criticism - so I see no reason why the new M3 won't take even greater strides forward. Sure, those razor-sharp throttle response days of the S54 and S65 are over; the S55 will give a little in this regard. But, one thing's for sure, the aforementioned are going to feel positively anaemic in comparison.

It's hard to dismiss what you're saying. It's a good argument. I'll concede that.

What I will say is my feeling is still this: The M3/M4 may very well be a great car DESPITE its engine. I'm a layman. I don't have anywhere close to the technical knowledge you have. Nor do I have the opportunity every day to exploit these cars to their maximum. What I care about is how it feels when I'm popping to the shops, or nipping to the airport to pick up a friend visiting me for the weekend. Before I even turned the key in my E92 M3, just knowing I had a unique NA V8 under the bonnet made me feel good. It felt differentiated from any other BMW. This new I6 is essentially the same engine as in many other BMW's. Sure, it might have all sorts of technical wizardry to make it superior to the bog standard BMWs, but is that going to be immediately obvious to me when I'm driving at 5/8ths?

 

[330CIZHP]

I think I made the point I wanted to earlier. There is no point in me beating on a dead horse. Although, I would clarify a few things I stated before.

I was not using obviously EVO's example when I stated lots of journalists yearn for the older V10. It was based on other reviews such as, Motor Trend, AutoWeek, Edmunds etc. who have a completely different perception than EVO on the same subject (Carlos Lago: "While I long for that high-revving V10 that sings beautiful notes up in the high revs, there is no denying from an efficiency and daily driving comfort stand point, it cannot simply match this twin turbo V8")

Also, your point for the S65 feeling anemic at the low end is not black and white with the new twin turbo engines since there have been complaints of turbo lag and the F10 engine being gutless below 3000 rpm. Here is one example:

"This is apparent out in the real world, where the M5 is fairly gutless below 3,000 rpm. Once past three grand, however, with twin turbos a-spinnin', the V8 revs like a turbine to its 7,200-rpm redline and begins to make power as if it's been lit with a fuse. On the dyno, power peaked at 514 hp at 6,250 rpm."

http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/m5/2013/road-test.html

This is corroborated by that "biggest disappointment" m5board.com thread I read a while back of owners discussing how the turbo lag makes the M5 feel lethargic at low revs.


Still there is something we can agree on here. While the new M3 would definitely be superior in many ways to the E9X m3 and a step forward, it will be missing the throttle response, the ability to rev so quickly up to the stratosphere and also most importantly, that great sound.

Clearly, the turbocharging of the M5 has not diminished its appeal, nor blunted its performance - it's the extra weight that has garnered by far the most criticism - so I see no reason why the new M3 won't take even greater strides forward. Sure, those razor-sharp throttle response days of the S54 and S65 are over; the S55 will give a little in this regard. But, one thing's for sure, the aforementioned are going to feel positively anaemic in comparison.

 

[Beemer B773ER]

This new I6 is essentially the same engine as in many other BMW's.

I think that's taking the 'I'm a layman" stance a bit too far.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

I think that's taking the 'I'm a layman" stance a bit too far.

Of course it's "essentially" the same engine as you'll find in many other BMW's. It's modified, but the block is the same one you'll find in the 1 Series, 2 Series, 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, 6 Series, 7 Series etc.

Tell me which other BMW shared the block of the S65?

 

[Sunny]

Of course it's "essentially" the same engine as you'll find in many other BMW's. It's modified, but the block is the same one you'll find in the 1 Series, 2 Series, 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, 6 Series, 7 Series etc.

Tell me which other BMW shared the block of the S65?

From what I have read, the S55B30 has it's own unique block made of a different alloy and doesn't share it with N55 despite the shared displacement. There is an article somewhere in the spy thread that says that and also believe Martin's blogpost.