My Thoughts on Mercedes Benz

[SDNR]

Being a youngster myself, I hope the elderly can manage to open the door and operate the COMAND. What a crock! There are a lot more "elderly" who can run rings around some of auto writers who use them as a crutch to make a useless point.

Hummmm...that felt good. Guess I'll go get another shot of Geritol...LOL

I absolutely agree with you NJ, so many younger or middle-aged people assume that people over 50 are all diaper-wearing...mouth-breathing morons who are all afflicted with the inability to understand how to press a few buttons in sequence and read a display screen. There are many older people around who are far more "with it" than a great percentage of under-30's I have met in recent years.

 

[Imhotep Evil]

"The one thing that's scored consistently for BMW, and is very much a key reason as to why the brand is as sucessful as it's been is that BMW has always defied convention and gone against the grain. That mentality of taking risks but always staying true to brand philosiphy will win out, every single time."


YES! That is it! BMW doesnt try to be everything to everyone as does Mercedes. I think you nailed it!

Yep, that preaty much is it.
MB might have had once a great image/prestige advantage over the rest but BMW didn't touch that, it made it's image with cars such as the 2002, 3.0 CSL, 3 series, an image as the driver's car.
MB in its pedestal didn't even realize the importance of the 2002 or the 3 series until it was too late. The niche was exploited by BMW and an image was created (by its icons).

 

[donau]

I absolutely agree with you NJ, so many younger or middle-aged people assume that people over 50 are all diaper-wearing...mouth-breathing morons who are all afflicted with the inability to understand how to press a few buttons in sequence and read a display screen. There are many older people around who are far more "with it" than a great percentage of under-30's I have met in recent years.

Good to hear some moderation here. Two more things about age:
1. In most cases, no matter what the age is, you still feel young although maybe not physically.
2. On the media ridiculing the age and his looks, Keith Richards once commented: "I don't really understand why they say that, in just a few they'll be this age too if they are lucky."

The thing about youth is that while you know that you will get old, you don't care because it is not reality yet.

But it is good to remember that, to twist Forrest Gump a bit, life is like a toilet paper roll. At the beginning it feels like there's so much left you don't have to worry about it. But as one gets closer to the end it starts going faster and faster and towards the end it will be finished before you know it. The point here being again: everyone gets old before they know it (if they are lucky).

Also thanks to NevadaJack for speaking up for number one.
Time is on the side of MB, they will always prevail in the end. Daimler, Daimler Benz and DaimlerChrysler have made mistakes throughout their history, but that would probably be another thread, and still always remained strong. They will make it thru this bad spell too.

 

[Mr. Mercedes]

I agree with Matt. Many a Benz buyer are likely to find themselves heading over to Lexus. Apart from the once excellent MB design, Lexus really does embody many of the qualities Benz stood for: Reliability, quality, excellent comfort and now even technological innovation.

Where I disagree with you is when you say MB design lacks trademark features. They were all once instantly recognizable as MB’s, from the grill all the way to the tail lights. I feel it’s only with the new generation of vehicles that they have somewhat lost touch with this, but it could very well return once they get their act together.

Merc1 – I do actually think some of the new BMW’s are beautiful such as the 5-seires and the 3-series in particular. But then beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Also, I think most of us a greatly underestimating the impact this new LS is going to have. Sure the S is selling well, but it’s brand new. The LS is yet to be launched, and may very well steal the S’s thunder. The vehicle is yet to be driven. Who knows how close they have gotten to or exceeded the benchmark. The IS got awfully close to the 3-ers driving experience.

Nevada your right. The general public are not likely to know any better and still believe MB is at the pinnacle of the automotive world. But that’s not what’s important here. Us ‘car nutz’ are very aware that thing over in Stuttgart aren’t so perfect anymore.

What I worry about is that BMW and Audi are capturing all of the younger demographic. Sure there are lots of potential buyers for MB out there still, but these younger people growing up with these brands are more likely to stay loyal to them. It will make it that much harder for MB to woe these buyers later on.

I disagree with you when you say that people look to Lexus when they can’t afford a MB. There would be thousands of people out there very much capable of buying their Mercedes of choice, but still choose to shop at Lexus for a multitude of reasons other than price. Much to my dismay and frustration (in the past, not so much these days), many members of my family members fit into this category.

I hope your right about Dieter though!

The Artist you said it…I am very much a confused MB fan still, and I’m also a BMW and Audi fan.

I agree with Warot in taht the list of reasons for not defecting to Lexus should any of the Germans fail to satisfy is getting shorter year by year. MB HAS to lift its game, and BMW and AUDI better watch their backs.

Roberto, excellent analysis about automotive status symbols. MB thrived once by not just being democratic in its appeal, but by also being the best!

Thanks Yaz. About the bluetooth, c’mon not all of us are political leaders, dictators etc . Sure they could include Bluetooth for us and exclude it for those slightly more paranoid.

 

[NevadaJack]

One of the most enjoyable threads I have read and taken part in recently. Good initial post

 

[NevadaJack]

Good to hear some moderation here. Two more things about age:
1. In most cases, no matter what the age is, you still feel young although maybe not physically.
2. On the media ridiculing the age and his looks, Keith Richards once commented: "I don't really understand why they say that, in just a few they'll be this age too if they are lucky."

The thing about youth is that while you know that you will get old, you don't care because it is not reality yet.

But it is good to remember that, to twist Forrest Gump a bit, life is like a toilet paper roll. At the beginning it feels like there's so much left you don't have to worry about it. But as one gets closer to the end it starts going faster and faster and towards the end it will be finished before you know it. The point here being again: everyone gets old before they know it (if they are lucky).

You nailed it! Perfect and so real to life

 

[Merc1]

^yea I suppose we will. But even if Mercedes does follow the S/CLS styling I dont think their image will improve. The S class is a good looking vehicle, but I dont look at that car and say "that truly is a Mercedes Benz". Mercedes doesnt have any design features that you can relate to its history as BMW and Audi do. BMW has its kidney grills and C piller window line that is traditional BMW styling. With the new Bangle designs you can take in the changes but also reflect on the past because some design principles never change. Mercedes doesnt have that. They dont have design features where a person can look at it and feel there looking at Mercedes' finest along with 130 years of history.

I totally disagree. Mercedes has their radiator grille design that has been on every car they've made since the very beginning. You can tell a Mercedes is a Mercedes no matter what year it is. Even now they all have the same DNA. The grille design, the wide C-Pillar, the rear tailights, there are many things that tie old/current Mercedes together.

M

 

[LaArtist]

hahaa lol the freedom of speach in this thread.. and the lack of interest of other members with opposite thoughts about this matter has made some ppl blind beyond belive..
no design features that relate to history..haha.. i dont want to be rude..but please..haha..

PS
lets just wrap it up and say that MB has lost alot of ground.. they will never catch up..and they should soon be the 3rd best german marque..and from there they will fall whatever they do..downt the gutter..and it will end with bancruppcy of one of the largest and most influentall car brands in the history..
Happy?

 

[Merc1]

That's what makes VW & MB so boring, they've gone soft trying to be all thigns to all people. BMW takes the high road and shoves all of it's ideas in your face and says "here take it, this is the best there is, you don't have a choice". It's worked against the brand, but even more so, it's worked for the better.

Huh? BMW is doing the same thing. For every model MB has BMW is working on a competitor. When BMW build their competitor for the R-Class you'll see what I mean. The only difference is that BMW has managed so far to make all of their expansion products interesting to drive - in short they've kept the character in their new products when Mercedes hasn't done that in cars like the A/B. BMW's Motorsport is also more focused in not trying to make a M version of everything they sell, in that way they aren't trying to be everything to everyone, but with their regular models they are hardly any different from MB. Look at their lineup and you'll see what I mean.

M

 

[Deutsch]

Huh? BMW is doing the same thing. For every model MB has BMW is working on a competitor. When BMW build their competitor for the R-Class you'll see what I mean. The only difference is that BMW has managed so far to make all of their expansion products interesting to drive - in short they've kept the character in their new products when Mercedes hasn't done that in cars like the A/B. BMW's Motorsport is also more focused in not trying to make a M version of everything they sell, in that way they aren't trying to be everything to everyone, but with their regular models they are hardly any different from MB. Look at their lineup and you'll see what I mean.

M

You basically elaborated on the original point I was making. As where MB does a market followup(R-class), a BMW product is exactly that, a BMW product. Meaninig they don't skimp on design or engineering just to have something to sell on the market and hopefully make a profit. Take a look at AMG, complete marketing gimmick, though a very good one that's won a lot of performance conuisseurs. There's an AMG for every model line MB does, because AMG's goal is to make the fastest Mercedes, period. Not to make a truly special product that has it's own unique character other than a high out put engine. They don't participate in refinement of the chassis from it's original state, it's basically a performance package, not so muich a performance car, as you would experience w/ an M. M cars are developed as seperate entities from their base counterparts from the get go. It's a completely different character you experience when you drive one, not a refined one. There's a reason why BMW doesn't do an M version of the X5, no, not because it's an S.A.v., it's not a typical M. That's just one example. My point in simple, MB does answerws to the market in the hope that buyers(which most likely they will) will recognize the product for the brand name, and not the product itself. BMW makes a product that caters to the individual and not the collective, if BMW is going to do a car, it has to be a no compromises machine that stays w/ in the brand philosiphy.

 

[Merc1]

You basically elaborated on the original point I was making. As where MB does a market followup(R-class), a BMW product is exactly that, a BMW product. Meaninig they don't skimp on design or engineering just to have something to sell on the market and hopefully make a profit. Take a look at AMG, complete marketing gimmick, though a very good one that's won a lot of performance conuisseurs. There's an AMG for every model line MB does, because AMG's goal is to make the fastest Mercedes, period. Not to make a truly special product that has it's own unique character other than a high out put engine. They don't participate in refinement of the chassis from it's original state, it's basically a performance package, not so muich a performance car, as you would experience w/ an M. M cars are developed as seperate entities from their base counterparts from the get go. It's a completely different character you experience when you drive one, not a refined one. There's a reason why BMW doesn't do an M version of the X5, no, not because it's an S.A.v., it's not a typical M. That's just one example. My point in simple, MB does answerws to the market in the hope that buyers(which most likely they will) will recognize the product for the brand name, and not the product itself. BMW makes a product that caters to the individual and not the collective, if BMW is going to do a car, it has to be a no compromises machine that stays w/ in the brand philosiphy.

I agree about the M/AMG question, but Mercedes hasn't skimped on engineering with their recent products. Totally disagree that a Motorsport BMW is a totally different from a regular BMW. The Motorsport division takes the already inherent BMW traits and turns them up just like AMG does with regular Mercedes and now Mercedes has done the right thing with the new V8 by making it an exclusive piece, not a souped up versions of a regular Mercedes V8. All a Motorsport BMW has over an AMG Mercedes is better handling even BMW lost their way temporarly by only offereing a SMG tranny in the new M5/M6 which met with angry protest to the point of now they're going to introduce a manual for those cars. If they were so true they would never assumed everyone wanted an automated manual.

True, BMW sticks to the theme of making everthing a driver's car, but in a SUV and their upcoming Van these things are no more useful than they are in any other brand's products in the same segment. To get a SUV or Van to be sporty means compromising their utility and/or ride and Mercedes simply isn't going to do that with those products in the name of sport. A SUV or crossover like the R-Class can only be so sporty before they defeat the purpose of having such a vehicle in the first place, in short they aren't about being sporty.

Saying BMW doesn't do a M version of the X5 because it isn't typical M is the same as saying its an SAV. You're just tryng to change the words around to make them fit the theory here. They aren't doing an M version because it is just than an SUV and it wouldn't live up to the brand precept of being sporty like a M5 or M6. If they did it would have a ride like a dumpt truck to get such a vehicle to handle like a Motorsport BMW should. Mercedes can get away with a ML63 because a Mercedes in its basic form puts luxury first.

Why is it that people expect Mercedes to build BMW in sporty character?

M

 

[Deutsch]

No need to get disgruntal, it's simple debate.

BMW M could totally do an X5 M if they wanted to, however you like to put it, like I said, at the end of the day "it's not a typical M". Go ask Ulrich Brunkhe himself, and see what he tells you. Gotta read inbetween the lines buddy.

 

[Merc1]

Not disgruntled, but I think Mercedes is being more than criticized here, it is going into bash mode like they can't do anything right.

Saying the X5 is not typical M is true, thats because it is a SUV. Same difference.

If we're going to "read in between the lines" with BMW then we have to do it with Mercedes I think also. Motorsport goes for a track ready car, AMG doesn't. Big difference.

M

 

[ALI]

Mr. Mercedes , with all due respect , I still think u need to change that name to Mr BMW , because your reasons are very out of place . IMO you named yourself Mr. Mercedes from the first place because you want to bash the brand nondirectly , in a way that none would take you as a brand hater just like so many other members , the difference is that the other members arent hiding their titles . If you were an M B fan you would like them for what they are and finally to make myself clear , BMW or audi wouldnt satisfy you in neither design or tech either ,because they dont have the lustre or old M B old design touches that you claim you love about M B .

And as far as I can say is that M B went wrong once and that is it . IMO they all look very Mercedes and they havent lost their lustre , they are retaining it , especially the new models . My new ML350 hasent had a single prob. , my CLS55 did not have a single prob , I rented a W221 s350 in Lebanon and it was perfect in both electronics and design , everybody said it was the most beautifull car they had seen and the quality is just amazing and so goes to the other two cars I have . Probably the only slight problems I had was with the 03E55 and my cousin's 05 E55 doesnt have any kinda problems in neither electronics nor performance and I have no purpose to lie .

Again with all due respect Mr. Mercedes , I dont think u hope the best for MB , and if you do hope for good things , it's not because you are an M B fan , but it's because you are a German car fan .

M B has cut its profit down im not sure how much but Im sure it's more than half of what it used to make , and your comments are about a year and a half old , so from now on speak of M B as of today .

If there is any body that knows or has studied MB to the right level in GCF here it's me , so from now on you will have to go through me and I ask for all MB fans to look closely at my posts because it is the straight truth and I have many reasons to love M B , and none of those reasons exist in any other brand . I dont bash other brands because I am not immateur but I wouldnt say that they contain my complete package .

 

[ALI]

M B follows the market at it's empty slots , nothing more or less . It's business yes ofcourse but at the same time it's an oportunity , I consider improving the automobile as job for MB . Besides , if there was any brand that has the right to create a new concept in the title called AUTOMOBILE , it should be the one who invented the concept in the first place .

 

[donau]

hahaa lol the freedom of speach in this thread.. and the lack of interest of other members with opposite thoughts about this matter has made some ppl blind beyond belive..
no design features that relate to history..haha.. i dont want to be rude..but please..haha..

PS
lets just wrap it up and say that MB has lost alot of ground.. they will never catch up..and they should soon be the 3rd best german marque..and from there they will fall whatever they do..downt the gutter..and it will end with bancruppcy of one of the largest and most influentall car brands in the history..
Happy?

This is a fun discussion. Hope everybody is enjoying it as much as I am. It is hard to comment without repeating what someone else has already stated but let's just say it one more time: Daimler and Benz bagat all the automobiles. Their DNA is in every car, especially in Audi and also BMW (I won't elaborate so that this post won't become too long). So there is no argument about Mercedes not having some recognizable trademark. The whole automobile is their trademark. For todays car buyers who are looking for something that would immediately identify the car as a Mercedes you don't have to look any further than the three-pointed star and the beautiful creation that it decorates. You'll know it is Mercedes. I know most of us want to live in today's world and not think about the old things, but there's a couple of things that stick out like sore thumbs when one does so.
1. A multitude of beautiful cars that can't be matched by anyone.
2. Daimler in it's couple of incarnations has proven that they are not the best business folks. The Studebaker-Packard debacle, they bought Auto Union and did not know what to do with it and more recently the investments in Mitsubishi etc. We'll reserve judgement on Chrysler. And not to mention that in their history they've let the best just walk away: Wilhelm Maybach, Ferdinand Porsche... Thank goodness they did not buy BMW in the late fifties...
Anyhow, my point here is that DCX may not be top notch as business folks but they have always made cars that end up withstanding the test of time and are always amongst the best. And today, just like VW, DCX has made some mistakes regarding their product line, but they have done much more that is good. I won't list the models for a second time and other writers have already done that too a couple of times over.
And yes, MB focuses on comfort amongst other things, not getting their cars to be the fastest in the slalom for example. For that they have their close relations, the Porsches who are handling that side of the family business...
They are most definitely not trying to build BMWs or Audis. They all have their place amongst the driving population based on the particular interests of those drivers.
Writing obituaries for MB is positively premature. They'll pull out of this one just like they have always done.

PS. Regarding whether they make their cars for the individual or the masses who can only recognize a brand name, as a Mercedes owner I can assure everyone that they built my car precisely to my specs I had at the time of the purchase of this car.

 

[Matt]

I totally disagree. Mercedes has their radiator grille design that has been on every car they've made since the very beginning. You can tell a Mercedes is a Mercedes no matter what year it is. Even now they all have the same DNA. The grille design, the wide C-Pillar, the rear tailights, there are many things that tie old/current Mercedes together.

M

I dont think the grill and the fatty C-pillar is enough, do you? Maybe its good that Mercedes have gone a bit radical with the latest generation but they might alienate their older, more traditional generation. Mercedes is neither BMW nor Audi and their customer base is different as well so the more they try to compete with them the further they may be going from their roots or traditional customer base. BMW could afford to go radical because they appeal to a younger generation. Mercedes average customer age is probably around 50-55 years old. I highly doubt they're looking for a radical design when they go into the Benz dealership...


Artist: Maybe instead of commenting on what other people think you should add something to the conversation???

 

[Matt]

In a nation that values individualism, Mercedes-Benz doesn't prescribe to [or project such] specific social values or attitudes..it allows much greater scope for context and interpretation - the brand image doesn't exclude people or make you feel unworthy....it is very democratic - and without affectation.

I dont feel that way about Mercedes for some reason. It seems to me that the brand does seem somewhat exclusive more than inclusive. I don't have anything to back that statement up, but thats just my interpretation of the brand. Mercedes has always seemed to be somewhat pretentious. Unlike BMW, Mercedes is trying to make a statement to other people. I think they make great cars for the most part, but I would never own the car because it seems to say "im better than you". I have no reasoning for this, its just been my interpretation.

 

[bum-man]

I dont think the grill and the fatty C-pillar is enough, do you?

Funny, you said the same when labeling BMWs design traditions, so do you think that is enough?
BMW has its kidney grills and C piller window line that is traditional BMW styling

I can add one more design cue that Merc1 left out, the ribbed tail lights.

 

[SDNR]

I totally disagree. Mercedes has their radiator grille design that has been on every car they've made since the very beginning. You can tell a Mercedes is a Mercedes no matter what year it is. Even now they all have the same DNA. The grille design, the wide C-Pillar, the rear tailights, there are many things that tie old/current Mercedes together.

M

Huh???....precisely which radiator grille are you referring to Merc1?, the current grille bears little resemblance to the ones from the 1950's and 60's, for example.