Vs M5 (F10) vs. the Competition

[LaArtist]

Really? what materials does it use? Can you list them by % and grade? and what about Panamera chassis? can you list that too?
.

I can

Light Blue/Green: Magnesium
Dark Blue: Aluminum
Green: Deep Drawn Steels
Yellow: Super high strength micro alloyed steels
Orange: Poly-phase Steels
Purple: Boron-Alloyed Steels

 

[K-A]

Really? 5/7 and RR ghost is the entire range of BMW corp? I guess I set the bat too high for you too.

And what when next Panamera comes along that will share the chassis with A7/A8 and Bentley? According to your logic it will be cheaper cause the chassis is not bespoke any more but I bet my left ball it won't be.



Really? what materials does it use? Can you list them by % and grade? and what about Panamera chassis? can you list that too?



Or it is because it has one of highest torsional rigid chassis among sedans - 35000 NM/deg, a whopping 55% more than E60 and even more than exotic sports cars like Zonda F (27000 Nm/deg) and Carrera GT (26000 Nm/deg)! And that is your vanilla 5er, not M5 which has more chassis stiffening.

Hasn't it been stated here, by ENI and/or Scott27 that the F01/F10 chassis didn't use lightweight/high strength materials due to BMW not being able to justify the purchase/use of them back when the recession was underway? Unless that was made out of thin air (maybe it was, maybe not). Either way, as strong as it is, it's still an economical chassis, or else BMW wouldn't use it on all their large cars (the fact that they use it on all their large makes it economical). Maybe it's better than the Panamera's, maybe not, but it's not as bespoke, and it's the BMW shared chassis amongst their large cars (i.e, economical, non exclusive, etc.). Does that matter? In reality, no, however, at the price point of the Panamera, fuzzy-feeling things like that go a long way (or else, how else do you justify that price).

The M5 is a better performance bargain, just like the M3 is a better performance than that, just like the CTS-V is a better performance bargain that that, just like the Mustang 5.0 is a better performance bargain than that, etc., but it isn't worth the price of a Panamera. Exclusive engine and chassis are just a couple of reasons for that. It's obviously Emotion>Logic in this case. How else can Porsche justify selling Panamara Turbo's for double what an M5 sells for, considering they perform basically the same.

 

[klier]

^^ Exclusive engine? Go ask Martin what engine is more exclusive, more high tech and overall more impressive. His answer will undoubtedly be the M5 4.4 V8. And you will see that back in the next Engine of the Year competition too.
As for the exclusive chassis.....yeah, a RR Ghost chassis is not exclusive enough.

Orange: Poly-phase Steels
Purple: Boron-Alloyed Steels

Of course! I could have told you too
BTW, orange and purple come from the moon (part of the Porsche 'exclusivity' over mundane 5er and E class models )

 

[Deckhook]

Some of those will have no choice with regard to the pinnacle of Porsches: They cannot afford them. Some who can may not buy the Panamera anyway, for reasons that have nothing to do with performance (looks, past preference for BMWs, etc). Again, these are emotional values.

Can't afford the model they truly desire to some would mean they would rather be top dog with a less prestigious brand than play second fiddle in a middle of the range better one. I can see arguments for both sides but for me personally the only Panamera suitable to be compared with the M5 is the Turbo/Turbo S, those two are better cars but the gains from a purely performance prespective don't quite add up to the expense. If you need your big performance saloon to have AWD then your choices are limited and the Panamera Turbo might make more sense but even then it will soon fall under the microscope of both the RS6 and RS7 and I'm sure they too will be considerably cheaper and offer far more bang for your buck.

This level of Porsche are the privilege of the rich as they are the only people that don't need to justify the cost difference, they simply buy what they want because they can. The rest of us have to look at it from an angle of value for money and the Panamera just doesn't cut it in my book.

 

[K-A]

This is the correct part, the rest is desperate fanboy rambling Not that I care, I just like pointing it out for the unaware reader.
The Panamera chassis is bespoke for that car because Porsche simply has no other car for it. Be sure other variants will follow on that platform or on the next gen platform to increase profits. The next gen Panny will share platform and electrical systems with Bentley and Audi, btw.
And there's already engines in the Panamera not made by Porsche. Not exactly a magic factor to have an Audi A4 diesel engine in the Panamera, right? And I'm sure the Touareg platform below the Cayenne is part of you magic factor too?

Some of the things you think of are even more crazy than what I say, hehehe.

Fanboy rambling eh? Pot calling kettle black.

I thought I was an M-B fanboy, so basically anything that I like over a BMW makes me a fanboy toward that car, I see.

About the chassis, that's still an excuse. Very possibly Porsche can use that platform along the range, but they don't now, and it factually is a bespoke chassis, no fanboy rambling there. The Tourag and Cayenne aren't Panamera's (I wouldn't consider either of those, and a Cayenne is my line for Porsche).

You just gotta swallow the fact that the Panamera is a more prestigious and high level [Bcar[/B] than any 5-Series, just like I do it VS an E-Class. Does that mean that you or me would buy one or even take one for free over a 5/E, or that it looks better, or fits our tastes more? No way. But lots of Panamera buyers are looking for a level of status, and exclusivity, bespoke qualities, non-shared elements, and interior dazzles that would have them never considering an equally or lower priced E/5.

 

[Sunny]

I can

Light Blue/Green: Magnesium
Dark Blue: Aluminum
Green: Deep Drawn Steels
Yellow: Super high strength micro alloyed steels
Orange: Poly-phase Steels
Purple: Boron-Alloyed Steels

Do you have any thing similar for any other cars?

 

[LaArtist]

Of course! I could have told you too
BTW, orange and purple come from the moon (part of the Porsche 'exclusivity' over mundane 5er and E class models )

I know alot of it is just marketing definitions to make ordinary steel sound better..
but there is some expensive exclusive materials in there.. that you wont find on a 5er or E class..no one can deny that.

Like KA said.. they can not charge double the price for something almost as fast..only because there is a Porsche badge.. people put up with alot of shit..but they don't like to get robbed blind!!!
There is something to that car.. something more than a M5/E63 ( now if its worth it..or up to your taste..that's a whole new discussion)

 

[LaArtist]

Do you have any thing similar for any other cars?

I do not..i was actually toilet reading a panamera book the past days, and it reminded me of this..so i just googled...
but im sure BMW has something similar somewhere.. im sure you can find it for us

 

[K-A]

Does anyone have the torsional rigidity figures for a Panny? I'd be curious to know.

Of course, the E-Class won "Best Bodyshell", over any car in 2009, including the R8, XJ, and quite possibly the Panamera, not to mention it set a record for most High Strength Steels used through the structure (78%) at that time. So of course both M-B and BMW have more than enough capabilities to out-engineer Porsche, and have the economies/mass elements to build MUCH cheaper cars with equal to or better attributes, but again, I haven't said that the Panny's chassis/frame is superior to either (although, if I was a Panny shopper, I wouldn't consider it if I found it to be otherwise), but it's more bespoke, i.e more warm & fuzzy $$$$ factor.

 

[LaArtist]

Does anyone have the torsional rigidity figures for a Panny? I'd be curious to know.

Cant find anything, but for an example a luxury yacht like the phantom has 40500nm/deg and the VW phateon 37000nm/deg..
I do not think this means to much irl .. but then again im not an engineer, i fly aircraft

 

[Guibo]

If you need your big performance saloon to have AWD then your choices are limited and the Panamera Turbo might make more sense but even then it will soon fall under the microscope of both the RS6 and RS7 and I'm sure they too will be considerably cheaper and offer far more bang for your buck.

Those Audis may very well offer more bang for your buck, but that is not enough to say the Panamera is overpriced. Unless it can be proven that Porsche's sales projections are unmet due to the existence of such cars. That will be difficult, if not impossible, to prove. I am aware of people's individual capacity to judge for themselves whether a car is worth it to them. But I'm talking in the broader sense.

 

[K-A]

Unfortunately I can't find a materials mix picture like the one on the Panny for the E-Class.

Looks like it also beat the 5-Series GT, therefore assumedly has a more advanced structure than the 5-Series (again, not surprising, considering what I've read here about BMW's cutting out advanced/lightweight materials on their newest cars, be that true or not).

 

[klier]

^^ Maybe they cut it out of the 5er refresh because of whatever reason, but BMW is cutting weight everywhere and it's the number one priority for the brand, pretty much. The new 3er is lighter, the 1er is pretty much the same weight despite being bigger in all dimensions, the X3 is lighter then before and the F01 weighs the same as E66 (but has much stronger engines and much more luxury/comfort)

I know alot of it is just marketing definitions to make ordinary steel sound better..
but there is some expensive exclusive materials in there.. that you wont find on a 5er or E class..no one can deny that.

No, it was more because those materials are in fact so exclusive or rare I have never heard of them before. It was more like a joke, I'm sure it's expensive and not found in any ordinary car.

PS, Ultimate Car Guy knows a lot about materials used in cars. Maybe he can reply!!

 

[K-A]

I've lost track about what we're talking about. .

 

[K-A]

Here we go, found one for the F10: Dissect it VS the Panamera and see whatcha think.

Light Blue/Green: Magnesium
Dark Blue: Aluminum
Green: Deep Drawn Steels
Yellow: Super high strength micro alloyed steels
Orange: Poly-phase Steels
Purple: Boron-Alloyed Steels

 

[LaArtist]

I've lost track about what we're talking about. .

Hahha you should go to sleep

 

[K-A]

It's only 4:23PM where I'm at. I should be just waking up!

 

[Sunny]

^Considering they decided to award E class the award over R8 which defnitly has a more advanced aluminum space frame, I wouldn't draw any conclusion. Same with Jaguar XJ, it has a more advanced all aluminum body shell. So the award is probable for being cheap or economical or something.

 

[K-A]

Lol, how do you know that the R8 or XJ have a stronger, and more advanced shell? Maybe they do, maybe they don't, and I HIGHLY doubt the XJ's is more advanced than the E's. Have you ever seen a W212's body shell in action (not to mention the record setting use of HSS/UHSS)? It's second to none:
W212

F10

The roof strength is especially also notable on the W212, withstanding over 20,000 lbs of force, while the F10 only withstands 14,000.

 

[Sunny]

Lol, how do you know that the R8 or XJ have a stronger, and more advanced shell? Maybe they do, maybe they don't, and I HIGHLY doubt the XJ's is more advanced than the E's. Have you ever seen a W212's body shell in action (not to mention the record setting use of HSS/UHSS)? It's second to none:
W212

F10

The roof strength is especially also notable on the W212, withstanding over 20,000 lbs of force, while the F10 only withstands 14,000.

You post that one pic everywhere. Why don't you go look at NCAP test results where both 5 series and A6 comprehensively beat E class in pretty much every test they do.

5er - http://www.euroncap.com/results/bmw/5_series/2010/401.aspx
A6 - http://www.euroncap.com/results/audi/a6/2011/435.aspx
E - http://www.euroncap.com/results/mercedes_benz/e_class/2010/397.aspx

But of course all this is not valid, just that one pic and the fact that Mercedes comes standard with golden underwear for all occupants that magically keeps them all safe.