M5 M Division : The Road Ahead : New World Order The New BMW M5.

[bmwownage]

Yes I agree. The problem (or the point) is make cars that sell. You really can't expect BMW to make a smaller M5 or a M5 with lesser interior features. Afterall it is the range topper and you can't pull the air-con out of the thing. And the fact is, it is those rich population who buys these things, and I'd imagine most of them aren't track racers. But, although these cars don't have the raw-ness of something light and touchy, but i don't see any problems for these cars going round tracks, they are still, very very impressive. I just hope they will make some "real" enthusiasts sports cars, like the E46 CSL, for the real deal, even at a slight loss.

 

[Mr Robert]

Well, that is just another case of the "image not product" syndrome. There have been hints towards a drivers M5 of the upcomming generation. That is good news. And these products are needed, otherwise, there will not be an image for the others to buy.

 

[AdvEvo]

Why do i not buy lotus etc.

Because i like the bmw setup 50/50 balance. Lotus is nice on track but that s just to hardcore i am not looking for that.

I have an E46 CSL that car has written my name on it. It s perfect for me. hardcore if you wish and driveable daily. A perfect example.

But bmw can not make much money out of such cars but it can be done otherwise.

If the base car is too heavy and too big to begin with and in that case we are now.

M3 E90/E92 too big car
M5 it s a boat
M6 Its a boat which looks like a speedboat.
X5M X6M that is a cruise ship.

All these cars are to big to begin with. There is to much metal on it so it will never be an agile car.

I am not asking for 900 kg car.

1250 a 1300kg as base ///M car would be nice.

If the base ///M car weights about 1300kg i can have all the luxery goodies. A 130i weighs about 1350kg so it can be done.

Then make option list for base ///M these options are not necessary for the big boats. So they have to concentrate on a lighter smaller base ///M with a proper high rev atmo engine. The big boats can have turbo s it will never be a car used for track enthusiast like the E36 M3 and CSL are used. So we can forget those and sell those to the fast autobahn brigade.

So the standard lightweight ///M is the entry model ///M with all the luxery like elec windows / airco etc. But keep it basic no elec seats for instance. I always find it annoying elec seats. things weight 45kg a piece since i have the e90 M3 i have almost not changed my seats. If i do mechanical is perfect for the job. Get more sound insulation out of car. People who like the cruise over the roads with no sounds inside cabin can buy the bigger M3 or M5 or buy at AG.

options

Recaro race seats / CSL seats
Better brakes like gts but smaller to fit 18 inch wheels
Airco deletion
radio deletion
lightweight wheels
alcantara steering wheel
roll cage GTS
Some more carbon bits doorpanels console etc.
Better and faster to react rear LSD
Carbon airbox.
manual gearbox
option for sportier springs shocks setup no EDC.

People can choose or make some kind of clubsport package we be happy.

So a lighter entry model ///M affordable for more people which can be upgraded with clubsport package for track enthusiasts.

 

[Gene]

everybody talks always about faster faster more hp etc etc.

Go drive a car what doesn t have the weight and size of a truck. Also sportscars needs low co2. Then the wrong way is bigger and heavier a kid of 5 years old could think of that. What does bmw do. Bring ///M trucks of 2300 kg and a new M5 which are bigger again in size then the last model. Then put a turbo engine from the AG shelf into it to cut Co2. And pay ///M money for it that s just Unbelievable.

///M Motorsports please make cars smaller in size and lighter in weight and you don t need 580hp to get fast forward. You also don t need turbo s also. Build us proper race engine s again in lightweight smaller chassis. lower weight helps co2 to. Lighter wheels smaller brakes smaller diff smaller tires.

What do you think using 245 tires front and 265 tires rear does give you roll resistance.

225/40/18 all round on a 320-340hp hp is enough.

Let s face it the GTS is a good try but 1480kg is still a piggy. It has even wider tires.

The more hp you have you also need to make the cars driveline more heavy to counter the big torque etc.

Look at wtcc cars 280hp weight is 1040kg why because everything can be made lightweight because it doesn t need that heavy big rear differential and propshaft also 17 inch wheels also smaller brakes etc etc.

Has Bmw ///M learned nothing from their race heritage to bring into roadcars.

The last years ///M is walking the wrong path.

I think its fair to say that M/AMG/RS, in fact all the tuning houses could create a car as you described, as gleaned from their 'racing heritage', but is that what the majority customer really wants?

The truth is that most customers (not all), want a fast, comfortable car with all the creature comforts and a fancy badge on it. 98% of customers wouldn't even know how to drive the car to the limit.

Imagine the marketing for a car you describe at M money:
"Here is the M[Place your number here], it handles like a go kart on the track, and can corner at unbelievable speeds. It did a round of the Nurburgring in under 7:35! - Fastest car in its class!
Cost: $150,000.
Note: Doesn't come with any Navigation, Radio, Airconditioning, Sunroof and other basic creature comforts.
Warning: BMW is not responsible for injury to your back when driving on normal roads."
Doesn't work that well does it?

The truth is that M/AMG/RS etc are cash cows for their respective brands, and their respective cars receive HUGE markup's because they are the tip of the model range. They could create the most amazing car that suits you perfectly, but it won't suit 98% of other customers - and unfortunately, majority rules here, because thats where the money is.

 

[Gene]

Why do i not buy lotus etc.

Because i like the bmw setup 50/50 balance. Lotus is nice on track but that s just to hardcore i am not looking for that.

I have an E46 CSL that car has written my name on it. It s perfect for me. hardcore if you wish and driveable daily. A perfect example.

But bmw can not make much money out of such cars but it can be done otherwise.

If the base car is too heavy and too big to begin with and in that case we are now.

M3 E90/E92 too big car
M5 it s a boat
M6 Its a boat which looks like a speedboat.
X5M X6M that is a cruise ship.

All these cars are to big to begin with. There is to much metal on it so it will never be an agile car.

I am not asking for 900 kg car.

1250 a 1300kg as base ///M car would be nice.

If the base ///M car weights about 1300kg i can have all the luxery goodies. A 130i weighs about 1350kg so it can be done.

Then make option list for base ///M these options are not necessary for the big boats. So they have to concentrate on a lighter smaller base ///M with a proper high rev atmo engine. The big boats can have turbo s it will never be a car used for track enthusiast like the E36 M3 and CSL are used. So we can forget those and sell those to the fast autobahn brigade.

So the standard lightweight ///M is the entry model ///M with all the luxery like elec windows / airco etc. But keep it basic no elec seats for instance. I always find it annoying elec seats. things weight 45kg a piece since i have the e90 M3 i have almost not changed my seats. If i do mechanical is perfect for the job. Get more sound insulation out of car. People who like the cruise over the roads with no sounds inside cabin can buy the bigger M3 or M5 or buy at AG.

options

Recaro race seats / CSL seats
Better brakes like gts but smaller to fit 18 inch wheels
Airco deletion
radio deletion
lightweight wheels
alcantara steering wheel
roll cage GTS
Some more carbon bits doorpanels console etc.
Better and faster to react rear LSD
Carbon airbox.
manual gearbox
option for sportier springs shocks setup no EDC.

People can choose or make some kind of clubsport package we be happy.

So a lighter entry model ///M affordable for more people which can be upgraded with clubsport package for track enthusiasts.

The BMW Driver Training instructor here in New Zealand, Mike Eady, was given a factory 130i to setup and race at the Nurburgring. It was a basic car, but he did the modifications all himself (well organised them anyway).

I'd suggest you'd have a lot more luck creating your own project car, than waiting for the perfect car from BMW M. You'd probably have more fun, and it'll cost about the same. Plus, you have no excuse for it not being perfect for you.

 

[Mr Robert]

Imagine the marketing for a car you describe at M money:
"Here is the M[Place your number here], it handles like a go kart on the track, and can corner at unbelievable speeds. It did a round of the Nurburgring in under 7:35! - Fastest car in its class!
Cost: $150,000.
Note: Doesn't come with any Navigation, Radio, Airconditioning, Sunroof and other basic creature comforts.
Warning: BMW is not responsible for injury to your back when driving on normal roads."
Doesn't work that well does it?

I think it would have worked out very well - for those of us interested in the product, not the image.

The lap around the Ring is not that important, let it take 8 mins as long as those 8 mins are enjoyable.

 

[BimmerToday]

I think its fair to say that M/AMG/RS, in fact all the tuning houses could create a car as you described, as gleaned from their 'racing heritage', but is that what the majority customer really wants?

The truth is that most customers (not all), want a fast, comfortable car with all the creature comforts and a fancy badge on it. 98% of customers wouldn't even know how to drive the car to the limit.

Imagine the marketing for a car you describe at M money:
"Here is the M[Place your number here], it handles like a go kart on the track, and can corner at unbelievable speeds. It did a round of the Nurburgring in under 7:35! - Fastest car in its class!
Cost: $150,000.
Note: Doesn't come with any Navigation, Radio, Airconditioning, Sunroof and other basic creature comforts.
Warning: BMW is not responsible for injury to your back when driving on normal roads."
Doesn't work that well does it?

The truth is that M/AMG/RS etc are cash cows for their respective brands, and their respective cars receive HUGE markup's because they are the tip of the model range. They could create the most amazing car that suits you perfectly, but it won't suit 98% of other customers - and unfortunately, majority rules here, because thats where the money is.

You are wasting your time... AdvEvo will never understand or at least never accept this. He will always ask for radical sports-cars with n/a engines and a low curb weight. I accept his wishes and I can understand them, but it is just not right to demand such cars from a company that has to care for it's income and not for the wet dreams of some guys who are maybe 1% of it's customers. And as we all know, 90% of these cars would only be bought by collectors and only very very few would ever see a racetrack.
In fact BMW M never was about track cars if we avoid exceptions like the M3 CSL or the M3 E30 Evo. Every M5 and most of the M3s have been fast around the track, but the idea of having a comfortable car for everyday driving combined with a good track-performance has always been there, the focus on tracktimes was not existent at the M3 E36, M3 E46, M5 E34, M5 E39 or M5 E60. Every new car from BMW M is faster than these older ones and still everybody is complaining that the older ones where sportier and the faster times are only a result of more horsepower - which is just wrong. They also have higher cornering speeds - despite beeing heavier and offering way more comfort features.

 

[AdvEvo]

I understand completely i have an heavy boat E90 M3. It s good and comfy.

I have a 130i race car build to suit my needs.

here is a pic of it.



But i am also a lot on racetracks. What do you see there 90% bmw on there E36 M3 / E46 and now lots of 130i.

Why 130i AG car because ///M has nothing.

So after the E46 M3 we don t see new M cars for track enthusiast and guys building new race cars out of street cars. The E90 and E92 are to expensive to begin with and to heavy to begin with. So why is ///M not filling in the gap. Why do you need to go to AG and make a race car out of a 130i. Then the other thing the M3 is the entry level M car. How manny people can spend that if they want to upgrade from lets say 130i to an M car.

For me ///M stands for motorsports. I thought it would. I am not asking for a lotus i am not asking for a stipped out ///M car. But the ///M we have now are more to the AG side then to the ///M otorsports side.

It would be nice if ///M comes up with a smaller more affordable ///M which you can replace the 130i with and see going on manny tracks and road around the world.

 

[BimmerToday]

But i am also a lot on racetracks. What do you see there 90% bmw on there E36 M3 / E46 and now lots of 130i.

Why 130i AG car because ///M has nothing.

So after the E46 M3 we don t see new M cars for track enthusiast and guys building new race cars out of street cars. The E90 and E92 are to expensive to begin with and to heavy to begin with. So why is ///M not filling in the gap. Why do you need to go to AG and make a race car out of a 130i. Then the other thing the M3 is the entry level M car. How manny people can spend that if they want to upgrade from lets say 130i to an M car.

For me ///M stands for motorsports. I thought it would. I am not asking for a lotus i am not asking for a stipped out ///M car. But the ///M we have now are more to the AG side then to the ///M otorsports side.

It would be nice if ///M comes up with a smaller more affordable ///M which you can replace the 130i with and see going on manny tracks and road around the world.

I guess that we will see the M3 E9x on the racetracks as well - when it is as cheap as E36 and E46 are today. The E9x is not a bad basis for a track car I think and there are some raceteams already using it like Black Falcon.


I guess we will see more M3 E9x on the tracks when they are cheaper. Naturally you will also see 130i's and more of them than M3 E9x - just as you see more VW Golfs than Porsche 911 on the road, simply because they are way cheaper, not because they are better. I like your 130i a lot by the way

 

[AdvEvo]

bmwtoday.

Just for the record. We have finished building an M3 E90 aswel for endurance.

My 130i weight is 1100kg. The M3 we building on same style as the 130i the weight 1330kg that s 230kg more.

My guess is if my 130i had 330hp it would be faster than the M3 on most tracks.

130i feels more agile in cornering. The M3 you feel the weight again. Why did we build an M3 then because the owner wanted more horse power. If ///M had given us a ///M 1 serie s with 320hp he had choosen that as a base car for his race car. Simple as that.

 

[BimmerToday]

bmwtoday.

Just for the record. We have finished building an M3 E90 aswel for endurance.

My 130i weight is 1100kg. The M3 we building on same style as the 130i the weight 1330kg that s 230kg more.

My guess is if my 130i had 330hp it would be faster than the M3 on most tracks.

130i feels more agile in cornering. The M3 you feel the weight again. Why did we build an M3 then because the owner wanted more horse power. If ///M had given us a ///M 1 serie s with 320hp he had choosen that as a base car for his race car. Simple as that.

And how should BMW do this? Develop an n/a engine just for the "M1" with very low sales numbers to expect - since it can't offer the comfort most M customers want over long distances and since it wouldn't be faster than a 135i on a straight line but much more expensive? BMW is already offering a 135i Coupé with around 320 hp in reality, but you don't like that one since it is turbocharged. Of course I accept your oppinion on this, but you also have to accept that your wishes are very special. In fact BMW is already offering the things you are demanding in your post, but you still find something to complain about. If they would have an n/a engine in the "M1" your next complain would be that the curb weight is still to high and that it would be even fast if it where another 100kg lighter... So it seems your wishes are very hard to satisfy, if it is possible at all. Many people like the 135i for what it is - a damn fast small car. For those who want a damn fast car with an n/a engine BMW is offering the 130i - which is not fast enough for you. What do you think how many people are demanding for the exact same car as you are? If you where the CEO of BMW, would you build a car to satisfy some 10-20 customers who want something you are already offering very successfully (a 1-series with about 320hp), but executed in a different way? I don't think so.

 

[Gene]

The lap around the Ring is not that important, let it take 8 mins as long as those 8 mins are enjoyable.

Fair enough argument, it could be slow as heck, but if its enjoyable it shouldn't matter. But all M cars (save the X5-M/X6-M relatively speaking), have been lauded by the press for their fun. And that's taking into account the increased weight over the years.

Regarding your statement:

I think it would have worked out very well - for those of us interested in the product, not the image.

I think its a moot point really. Whether I am right, or you are right, Scott has said that M will be producing two variants of M cars from this point. Similar to AMG's black series. One go-fast comfort-mobile, and one hardcore version. The M3 GTS (and maybe the Z4 GTS) are examples of this. AdvEvo has mentioned that even the M3GTS is on the heavy side, but truth be told, he, nor any of us have driven it. And as you said, it should really come down to the fun-ness factor shouldn't it?

 

[Gene]

bmwtoday.

Just for the record. We have finished building an M3 E90 aswel for endurance.

My 130i weight is 1100kg. The M3 we building on same style as the 130i the weight 1330kg that s 230kg more.

My guess is if my 130i had 330hp it would be faster than the M3 on most tracks.

130i feels more agile in cornering. The M3 you feel the weight again. Why did we build an M3 then because the owner wanted more horse power. If ///M had given us a ///M 1 serie s with 320hp he had choosen that as a base car for his race car. Simple as that.

I think its fair to say that you're a very unique type of customer. But unfortunately, the way things are going you're not M's target audience. Does this make M wrong in their choice of future direction? Definitely not. We can see from the numbers that M has been selling more and more cars year upon year, and thats proof that the path they have chosen is working. How I see it, is that M/AMG/RS etc are bringing a performance car to the masses: for those that don't have your driving prowess, but can still drive the car fast to a point.

I think we can argue this to the cows come home, but the reality is, M will cater from the majority customer. Plus they have to work from a BMW AG base car, which has been designed for the customer 'without compromise' (i.e. more weight). Sure you can add carbon fibre panels here and there, and use titanium instead of steel - but a fat bastard will always be a fat bastard, regardless of how much you try and hide the fat. The culprit for this isn't BMW, its the customer. They want more everything (safety, comfort, luxury, technology) for cheaper, and you simply cannot deny the laws of physics.

 

[Mr Robert]

I think its a moot point really. Whether I am right, or you are right, Scott has said that M will be producing two variants of M cars from this point. Similar to AMG's black series. One go-fast comfort-mobile, and one hardcore version.

Like I said, that is the only way to go from here. The brand needs the products to build the image for the image-buyers to buy.

 

[klier]

Fair enough argument, it could be slow as heck, but if its enjoyable it shouldn't matter.

Only to some extend. Because to others, being the fastest and having the most capable car is what it's all about.

 

[Mr Robert]

Only to some extend. Because to others, being the fastest and having the most capable car is what it's all about.

Those people should try helicopters. Fast from A to B. Or the train, very good at holding the line - not that involving, though...

 

[AdvEvo]

M can satisfy me. They have build fantastic cars like E36 M3 the E46 M3 and CSL and the Engine of the E90 M3 is brillant. Only the chassis has grown to much and there is where 1 series steps in. ///M 1 series is missing. ///M does not need to build a new engine 130i engine is perfect base engine to make an outstanding NA engine from. I know people who got 350 hp out of 130i engine with M3 3.0 throttle bodies. 130i is very reliable engine. We used it in 3 years cup racing not even one engine broke. Then the 120d cup cars turbo s broke down lots of them even cars went on fire. With turbo s there is comming so much heat from it gives more problems than a NA engine. Out of the box the 130i is a very good base car for racing. It misses the NA ///M engine that s a pity.

Of course a 135i engine is faster of line even 135i engine is faster than my csl in daily drive but what gives more fun???? When i pay premium at ///M i want something special. When you buy a mechanical swiss watch you pay premium because it s something special it s a piece art like the ///M engines (3.0 3.2 and 4.0 and 5.0) The cheap jap cars did it the easy way and that was turbo. ///M was more special not faster.

And an other thing is the 135i has heating problem when used on hot day on track. Limpmode. The oil temp goes out of the roof. I have bought one and sold it fast. So no go there. What opinions do we have only the 130i as trackday warrior for now nothing from ///M in the 1 series.

You can say why should bmw build something special for me. They don t have. I just point out. Bmw are seen a lot on race tracks even the E36 M3 you see a lot. Also this is a good marketing tool. Win on sunday sell on monday. So i think it is also important they make a car which you see randomly on tracks when they are transferred by customers. But then they need to offer a car which is suiteable for that. For now the only car and best car for the job is the non ///M car 130i NA.

 

[Cashmere]

Your 130i looks stunning! Are those Reiger side skirts? And what about your roof, is that a black Vinyl. Do post more pix!

 

[AdvEvo]

sideskirts are bmw performance. The roof is carbon.

 

[NarutoRamen]

Hey man. That's an awesome ride. Mind giving some technical details?