CT Lexus Premium Compact Concept

[Centurion]

American car manufacturers have had zero success in Europe except for Ford, they are an exception in that they have two distinguished line-up of cars specifically catering to each side of the Atlantic Ocean. Lexus, Acura and Infinity are all brands specifically tailored to the US market which is why Toyota's effort has yielded financial success in North American. The only people I see driving Lexus in Europe are old people. Lexus will need to change their entire philosophy to succeed anywhere else than Japan and North American.

 

[EnI]

^ Lexus are not successful in Japan at all. Well below the plans.

The only non-US market where Lexus is doing extremely good is South Korea - due to ES model mainly. Not sure what's happening in Australia, and some other (smaller) Far East markets though.

Regarding Ford ... yes, they are blessed with Euro-specific products (Fiesta, Escort / Focus, Mondeo) which are very popular in Europe. Same goes with GM's Euro-division: Opel / Vauxhall ... offering Euro-specific product. Again very popular ...


IMO it's really hard for those Jap artificial premium brands - since they are US-oriented they offer US-specific product which do not well in Europe.
Developing another Euro-specific line of products will be too expensive. Same case if developing more global-oriented compromised products - since that would destroy their position they enjoy in US market with US-oriented products like ES & RX.

 

[Centurion]

^ Lexus are not successful in Japan at all. Well below the plans.

Really?

 

[Giannis]

Yes. And if a brand is not successful where it was born, then it can not be successful globally...

 

[EnI]

Really?

Yes. There have been articles & data on that around the net.


The vast majority of Lexus buyers are Toyota customers, only afriction Lexus buyers migrate from BMW / MB ... some migrate from other brands.

And mind Lexus invested huge money in dealerships & advertising / promotion in Japan - having very developed dealership network (160 sites ... vs BMW's 30 sites).

Lexus entered Japanese market in 2005/2006. They had a plan to initially sell between 50-60k units per year - becoming #1 in short term, and then increasing the sales to 100k annually. Yet in 2008 they sold 26k vehicles (eg: MB: 37k, BMW: 49k) - despite huge marketing investments ... heavy advertising & promotion & huge dealership network.

Most sold Lexus models in Japan are hybrids (30% of all sales). But it's true SUVs (RXh) sales started in 2009 ... So their line-up is still not complete there. And they are about to launch HSh in the end of the year ... and that promises much ... since many Prius customers is expected to upgrade to its more upscale Lexus sister-car. So, in the end more than 50% Lexus cars sold in Japan next year will be hybrids - which are becoming extremely popular in Japan. Prius sales rocketed in the last year (+400%). So, Lexus will again be just a premium-hybrid brand ... an upgrade from Toyota. Until the Germans come with their Hybrid cars ...


****

Most Japanese (just like Russians & Chinese) think a true luxury can only come from Europe ...

And as you can see for most Lexus buyers in Japan moving to Lexus is just an upgrade from Toyota ... Lexus is not considered a true Luxury brand in Europe.

It's like upgrading from Skoda to VW ...
Or from VW to Audi a decade & more ago.



PS: they are struggling in the growing Chinese market as well: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bw/2009-08/10/content_8547352.htm

 

[Sayyaaf]

Some interesting stuff ..

But hey , few years back there was almost every lexus model rebadged as Toyota in JDM ... hence the bad reputation and difficulties boosting brand image ... so I guess it is not gonna happen within a decade ..

 

[cawimmer430]

Great post, Eni.

You can't compete with a story like "In the early 20th century an automotive enthusiast & a great engineer XY started with automotive business in his own garage ..."

What Lexus can offer? "In late 80s Toyota marketing strategists from 15th floor of Toyota Corp. HQ created a completely new automotive brand using Toyota underpinnings & tech, putting lots of great equipment in the cars, and sell them for a low price".

And this is exactly what I have often implied with Lexus lacking history and heritage. The beginnings of Daimler and Benz, BMW, Jaguar, Maserati, Citroen etc. are all well known and there is genuine passion in that history. Their creators had a vision. Andre Citroen wanted this and that. Karl Benz wanted to do this. Karl Rapp wanted to do this.

Lexus? Toyota saw an opportunity to insert a terribly boring artificial brand here that would appeal to the masses.

Lexus is nothing more than a marketing opportunity for Toyota. An artificial luxury brand that undercuts its competitors through cheaper pricing and more standard features and arguably better reliability. But that's it. I personally see no appeal in any Lexus. Appeal to me is created through achievements in the past: innovation, motorsport etc.

.

 

[cawimmer430]

The only people I see driving Lexus in Europe are old people.

Or people who are value-oriented and want to be different. They might even see "appeal" in a Lexus (I don't).

A lot of old people reach a point where they say: "Ok, I am 60 years old and I can go down the path of an S-Class or an A-Class." Indeed, many older people will decide to spend lavishly on an indulgence like an S-Class or 7-Series or take the "value" route and go for a 1-Series or A-Class.

This isn't possible with Lexus since they only offer the LS460 here and the gas-guzzling LS600h: no 1-Series fighter (yet).

Lexus will need to change their entire philosophy to succeed anywhere else than Japan and North American.

Agreed. But they have never done this in Europe. They're still following the same plan they did in 1989. Ok, so the IS220d was a change but it was such a half-hearted effort it is not worth mentioning.

This new 1-Series fighter from them, I don't expect much from it. Like I said it will most likely compare to the 130i or 135i and they won't have anything to go head-to-head with the 116i or 118i (and probably no diesels). I think the executives at Lexus think that offering a "small car" is enough to attract customers and then give them the added benefit of a big and powerful engine. Eh, do these guys even know the European market? We have engine capacity taxes here! kW is also taxed (in Germany). We want small engines that are zippy and fuel efficient and most manufacturers, even Toyota, offer this.

Then again the Japanese have traditionally been very slow to recognize market trends in Europe. They completely slept through the diesel boom of the mid-1990s here for example.

 

[EnI]

True.

As said many times: at least in most markets worldwide premium is also associated with (brand) history & heritage very much ... with the soul behind the product. The human involvement ... the vision, the passion, the desire, the emotions ... through the time. Something that's very hard to recreate artificially.

Eg. most of the Dubai or Abu Dhabi luxury etc ... Only few spots there have some heritage - as a base for a true prestige ... mostly in Persian area (Iraq / Iran). But the new luxury is purely artificial - although the products are beyond great.

Such luxury appeals to fashion-centered nouveau riche - like the Becks, Ronaldo etc. Wanting something of great quality, but often soulless & usually flashy & ostentatious ... without any heritage. Such people who don't care about past (history & heritage & tradition) but caring only about present & future. If they accidentally love some historic things it's often because it's fashionable - not due to the content.

Yes, before somebody else brings that on : eg. RR also cater to these modern tastes ... but at least based very much on the heritage ... since RR always has been an opulent car / brand.


@ Chris ...

True. Lexus still uses that US formula in Europe: luxury = big & powerful. Which is not the case in Europe.
It looks like they've found a niche for some markets (like ES for the South Korea, or hybrid models for Japan - offering something rivals don't).
But this Euro plans with compact car ... I'm very much skeptical ... It's not a niche, the segment is crowded. Lexus can't offer nothing new here ... Not even a compact hybrid won't do much ... Since hybrid hysteria has not hit Europe as much as did US & Japan. And in a few years that won't be Lexus advantage anymore - since also other carmakers will start to offer hybrids in the segment.

A price-attractive compact car, with luxury features, and super-efficient & clean sporty small (1.8 or 2.0L) diesel engine ... perhaps even diesel hybrid - that would put Lexus on the map in European markets instantly. But Toyota / Lexus lag behind in diesel tech much ... So, no candy for Lexus.

 

[Human]

Who cares about Lexus? This is a German Car Zone!

 

[bmwownage]

Lexus is pretty much a rebranded Toyota to a large extent.. yes they have separate designs now and "promise" that there will be no Toyota equivalent (that's what the dealer said to me), still it is "just" a Toyota packaged with higher class trims. Sure I think they have succeeded to a certain extent in recent years that Lexus is not just more expensive than Toyota, but also much better... remember we had those old ES300 being 100% same as a Toyota Windom, and IS200 being an expensive but sluggish version of the Toyota Altezza RS, RX was a Toyota Harrier etc. But still it is hard to convey people to pay the same price for a Jap car as a German car for example... OK it's European designed and engineered, but it's still Toyota. So this small Lexus is probably a spiced up Corolla? WHo's gonna pay the price of a A3 to get one.

 

[Merc1]

Well the only Lexuses that I consider true are the GS, IS and LS which have no Toyota kin running around with the same underware.

The ES (Camry), LX (Land Crusier), HS (Avenis), GX (4Runner) and RX (Hilander) are just rebaged or reconfigured Toyotas.

Oh forgot about the SC430, it is its own car a true Lexus, but man is it ederly.

I actually saw the new hybrid, the HS250 on the road today, boy does it look like a jacked up Corolla with chrome trim. What a joke it is.


M

 

[Kowalski]

Wimmer's post is actually spot on.

-Lexus is making a mistake to think that Europe is just like North America. They need to offer more diesel powered cars; The IS220d is not enough. Now they want to enter one of the most competitive segments in Europe, it will take more than just re-style an Auris and put a higher price tag to be a proper rival against the likes of A3, 1-Series and even the Golf, which is the benchmark of this particular class.

 

[ateekt]

Well the only Lexuses that I consider true are the GS, IS and LS which have no Toyota kin running around with the same underware.

The ES (Camry), LX (Land Crusier), HS (Avenis), GX (4Runner) and RX (Hilander) are just rebaged or reconfigured Toyotas.

Oh forgot about the SC430, it is its own car a true Lexus, but man is it ederly.

I actually saw the new hybrid, the HS250 on the road today, boy does it look like a jacked up Corolla with chrome trim. What a joke it is.


M

Actually, only the current Is, Gs & Ls are pure (all) Lexus cars! They were all Toyotas till last generation!

Sc is not all Lexus, it is adopted Toyota Soarer! Gx is Toyota Prado & the Rx is Toyota Harrier!

 

[Merc1]

Actually, only the current Is, Gs & Ls are pure (all) Lexus cars! They were all Toyotas till last generation!

Sc-430 is not Lexus's own kid, it is the adopted Toyota Soarer! Gx is luxury Prado & Rx is Harrier!

Yeah that is what I'm talking about current generation cars only.

Oh, didn't know the current generation SC had that distinction, thought it was only the first generation SC.

We just have different names for the Toyota SUVs here.


M

 

[ateekt]

Yeah that is what I'm talking about current generation cars only.

Oh, didn't know the current generation SC had that distinction, thought it was only the first generation SC.

We just have different names for the Toyota SUVs here.


M

4-Runner, Surf, Prado & Gx share the same chassis! Though built vary on Prado & Gx, they are higher!

 

[cawimmer430]

I have not been following the reviews but how smooth and refined is that 4-cylinder engine of the Lexus HS250h?

This is interesting because I remember when avid supporters of Lexus used to slam luxury brands that offered 4-cylinders (basically Audi, BMW, MB, VW and yes, even classic Porsches!). Now that the HS250h is out (and a 4-cylinder Lexus ES specifically [and quietly] sold in China and South Korea, these same people suddenly approve of such engines in their precious Lexus.

I really think Lexus has the worst fanboys of any brand currently on the market. Now that Lexus offers "several" 4-cylinders these engines are "acceptable" all of a sudden.

 

[Deutsch]

Sketch looks cool, but I'm no Lexus fan.

Funny thing when you talk to the Lexus fan boy and their ilk the only thing they really ever say to defend Lexus is that a) it won't break down and b) the customer service rocks! Last time I checked neither of those things is what makes a truly great car. Car company? Sure, but that's only saying so much.

 

[Mii]

Baby Lexus U.S. -bound?

Leftlane

Lexus will soon expand its European lineup with an all-new, entry-level premium hatchback, but a new report suggests the baby Lexus could find its way to the North American market. Lexus’ premium hatch will debut in concept form at next month’s Frankfurt Motor Show.

According to Automotive News, the smaller Lexus – believed to be called the CT – could roll into U.S. Lexus dealers by 2012. The new Lexus model would go up against vehicles like the Audi A3 and BMW 1-Series, as well as upcoming premium models such as Cadillac's sub-CTS model.

Details remain scarce on the new Lexus model, but the U.S. version of the premium compact could come as a hybrid only. European buyers will have the option of at least two diesel powertrains, but Lexus has no plans to introduce diesels to the U.S. market.
Pricing also remains a mystery, but something near the $30,000 mark seems appropriate for the segment.

 

[cawimmer430]

Details remain scarce on the new Lexus model, but the U.S. version of the premium compact could come as a hybrid only.


Great. Extra weight and for what? So this mini Lexus can have the blue hybrid logo and automatically pass for "green"?

I'll wait until the final product is out but I thought these guys were serious about attacking the BMW 1-Series: seems like more marketing hype to me. The true focus will be on the hybrid setup and thus more people will think they're driving something so environmentally friendly. Lexus marketing...eh, hype, at its best.

Forgive my attitude but I was just browsing Club Lexus and I've come to the conclusion that 97% of the folks there are retards. What they're saying about the competitors is unbelievable.