Mr. Mercedes
Premium
I don't buy it. They can go to that level by themselves. The Aston variants will simply give some economies of scale.
Jaguar Land Rover tries to get BMW/VW engines
- Thread starter Kilcrohane
- Start date
I don't buy it. They can go to that level by themselves. The Aston variants will simply give some economies of scale.
-=Hot|Ice=-
High-Rev Hero
2014 Thread of the year.
SCOTT27
Lap Time Luminary
The G-Force was science fiction.
The G 63 6X6 AMG runs off the regular production line, for discerning tastes...
Yes but with Premium SUVs of all segments growing in sales. Mercedes-Benz will just be whores as the rest of us. And the lure of a high end luxury SUV will be far too great to ignore.
They did try before with a Maybach badged GL , wonder if they still have that proposal or they destroyed it?
Kilcrohane
Porsche Perfektionist
- sorry for the delay in replying, Giannis.
so, very quickly:
yes, 'Baby Jag' and 'Hotfire' both due sometime next year, according to latest info. from the A/Car mouthpiece.
Both Baby Jag and Hotfire were supposed to be on the market as early as 2013, but constantly sliding.
Baby Jag will just be another version of the aluminium platform dating back to the 2003 XJ, now underpinning 2009 XJ, XK, F-type and L405 R/Rovers. That's why it looks so wide, more suited to a 7-series class car not a 2 sizes smaller, 3-Series competitor car.
The Hotfire is being hyped already as class-leading, with ultra low emissions, yet the on-sale since late 2013 'Drive-E' new Volvo 4-cyl. engines look to have already shot that fox.
The XF and XJ are being creamed in the marketplace - see the info from 'Baron95' in the link above on the dire situation in the key US market. The XJ especially can hardly be given away, thanks to the new S-Class, revised A8 and newish Quattroporte.
The 'new' Range Rovers are exposed due to the lies about their weight, performance and supposed 'newness'. JD Power again showed L/R to be the worst 'premium' maker by a distance. The V8/V6 petrol engine is ancient, outdated and a huge gas-guzzler, hence the approach to BMW/VW. The PSA-designed V6/V8 diesel is likewise old, outdated and way behind the class-best. From late 2015 onwards the top-spec R/Rovers will be scuppered by the new Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Lambo, Maserati and Aston Martin SUVs.
Oh, and regarding the Range Rover twins, the latest turn in Ukraine will mean higher oil price, further increasing the move to smaller SUVs, like the Macan and GLA crossover class vehicles, away from the sub-15 mpg US, 2.5 tonne behemoths like the full fat R/Rovers, except for some diesel-engine sales, which of course JLR hasn't got - a US 'clean diesel'.
Kilcrohane
Porsche Perfektionist
yep, that pretty accurately represents what the public is told/has been told pretty much since 2010, by the media.
The point of this posting was to show an insight into what is actually going on behind the scenes - desperate approaches to competitors to buy in engines; unexplained delays in the showpiece China JV and UK engine plant, plus the severe doubt that any real money is flowing from Tata to JLR , let alone the claimed £2.5 bn/yr, due to Tata itself being cash-strapped, due to the dire Indian economy and increased competition from foreign makers.
If everything truly was so rosy in the garden as publicly claimed why would JLR go to the trouble of re-issuing old stories in their favourite media mouthpieces just this last weekend. Was it someone from JLR Gaydon reading this thread and feeling the need to respond to the damaging information here, and/or just JLR's usual tactic of announcing/re-announcing non-stories just before major competitor product launches and motorshows where they have nothing genuinely new. I think it both.
From the local area so-called business paper of record, The Birmingham Post, we got the twice already announced story of JLR making cars in Saudi Arabia, and sourcing aluminium there. This story is nearly two years old already, and just a jackanory-story anyway.
http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/business/manufacturing/jaguar-land-rover-linked-saudi-6757243
Then there's the re-announcement of JLR's 2013 profits and production numbers story by Autocar, again this weekend just gone, just in time for the Geneva show, except this is not news, having been reported already nearly a month ago.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/jaguar-land-rover-records-sales-and-profits-boom
If a company was truly so sure of itself and so profitable, with a magnificent future prospect ahead, why all the fluff PR announcements and general chest-beating?
SCOTT27
Lap Time Luminary
^ The Maybach SUV was just a rumor around 2003, I believe, but EDAG built a GL based "Luxury Utility Vehicle" for Geneva 2007.
No Rumour. Some Rolls-Royce customers were invited to see it , they built it , they should have it.
It was just a few years ago.
Kilcrohane
Porsche Perfektionist
So, a classic JLR spoiler tactic - nothing genuinely new to show, so spoil others' real launches with 'a flash of thigh' - and so uncannily similar to the 'launch' of the much hyped C-X17 Jaguar SUV last year, also 'presented', and reported to be planned to be on sale quite shortly after in early 2015, but now quietly, to of course far less public fanfare, word trickles out that it won't be seen now afterall before 2016 at the earliest, possibly even not until 2017, so up to four years after its initial 'public launch', i.e. it's more infamous JLR vapourware.
Shows nothing but desperation on JLR's part, them knowing that Jaguar is sinking - the F-type roadster flopped, the coupe already 'price-adjusted' and already stillbirthed by the Corvette Stingray/Z06, new Audi TT S/RS*, new Ford Mustang, and coming AMG GT and new Maserati coupe, plus the Jaguar XJ destroyed by the S-Class. As I said, the Jaguar brand will go first, a blind man should see that, then the game's really afoot with the L/Rover/R/Rover brand.
*added afterwards, now that details of the new 3rd gen. TT are out, with the 311 PS, 0-100 km/h in 4.7s, sub £40k/€50k TT S model eclipsing the £60k F-type V6 S coupe.
Kilcrohane
Porsche Perfektionist
Someone been reading and purloining GCF for ideas?:
http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/news/jaguar-land-rover/news-analysis-tata-motors-issues-india/
Looks like Mr Goldthorp has also picked up on the reality of the Tata-JLR relationship, i.e., that it's pretty much the opposite of that portrayed in the UK media, in that it is Tata Motors, the ostensible parent company, that is being propped up by JLR's cashflow currently, and hence talk of £2.5 bn a year investment into JLR by Tata by the UK media is pretty much a barefaced lie, designed to deceive gullible people, in the UK mainly, that all is well and going from strength to strength at JLR, thanks to the munificent guardian, Indian Tata, as opposed to Ford, the stingy previous owner, that almost sent JLR under, due to a lack of real investment and care for Jaguar Land Rover.
As so often is the case in today's world, in almost all fields, the truth is nearly the opposite of what we are told.
So, credit to Mr Goldthorp for picking up this theme explored here on GCF several weeks earlier, by yours truly.
Interesting too that he also breaks another taboo, by stating that Jaguar is currently loss-making, and if the XE doesn't get off the ground, then it's all over for Jaguar.
I've been saying it's all over for Jaguar for at least 3 years - a tad earlier than Mr Goldthorp, who has to use a dreaded analyst, Max Warburton of Bernstein Research, to tell him the blindingly obvious. But again, at least he said it, which obviously comes as a great shock to the many reared on the propaganda lies of the UK media, who extoll daily the huge success of Jaguar and Land Rover.
I said on the Jaguar XKR thread(see below) that Jaguar must be making no more than 60,000 vehicles a year currently, all at Castle Bromwich, and that thanks to the JLR management increasingly believing their own propaganda they have increased the workforce at Castle Brom since 2010 by about 1,500-2,000, meaning nearly 5,000 direct line workers are now knocking out fewer than 250 cars a day, compared to say Nissan Sunderland's similar sized workforce doing almost ten times that. And people wonder Jaguar is not profitable.
http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/jaguar-xkr-s-gt-2014.48683/reply?quote=685681
There were rumours a year or so ago that Tata was looking to sell the Jaguar brand. I doubt that the Indians at Tata Motors and the German execs at JLR are under any illusions about the real state of play with Jaguar. They will know even with the so-called XE 3-Series Fighter, Jag cannot hope to compete with the German 3.
The XE, talk of a 2016 XF replacement and the SUV planned for sometime are basically windowdressing to ensure that Tata gets the highest price it can when they finally grasp the nettle and sell the brand. Ford's Premier Automotive Group in the early 2000s proved that it wasn't possible to take on the German 3, unless you were prepared to invest in the tens of billions, and have patience over decades of time, like Toyota with Lexus, and GM with Cadillac. For Tata to do this, itself floundering and cash-strapped, is ridiculous.
http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/news/jaguar-land-rover/news-analysis-tata-motors-issues-india/
Looks like Mr Goldthorp has also picked up on the reality of the Tata-JLR relationship, i.e., that it's pretty much the opposite of that portrayed in the UK media, in that it is Tata Motors, the ostensible parent company, that is being propped up by JLR's cashflow currently, and hence talk of £2.5 bn a year investment into JLR by Tata by the UK media is pretty much a barefaced lie, designed to deceive gullible people, in the UK mainly, that all is well and going from strength to strength at JLR, thanks to the munificent guardian, Indian Tata, as opposed to Ford, the stingy previous owner, that almost sent JLR under, due to a lack of real investment and care for Jaguar Land Rover.
As so often is the case in today's world, in almost all fields, the truth is nearly the opposite of what we are told.
So, credit to Mr Goldthorp for picking up this theme explored here on GCF several weeks earlier, by yours truly.
Interesting too that he also breaks another taboo, by stating that Jaguar is currently loss-making, and if the XE doesn't get off the ground, then it's all over for Jaguar.
I've been saying it's all over for Jaguar for at least 3 years - a tad earlier than Mr Goldthorp, who has to use a dreaded analyst, Max Warburton of Bernstein Research, to tell him the blindingly obvious. But again, at least he said it, which obviously comes as a great shock to the many reared on the propaganda lies of the UK media, who extoll daily the huge success of Jaguar and Land Rover.
I said on the Jaguar XKR thread(see below) that Jaguar must be making no more than 60,000 vehicles a year currently, all at Castle Bromwich, and that thanks to the JLR management increasingly believing their own propaganda they have increased the workforce at Castle Brom since 2010 by about 1,500-2,000, meaning nearly 5,000 direct line workers are now knocking out fewer than 250 cars a day, compared to say Nissan Sunderland's similar sized workforce doing almost ten times that. And people wonder Jaguar is not profitable.
http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/jaguar-xkr-s-gt-2014.48683/reply?quote=685681
There were rumours a year or so ago that Tata was looking to sell the Jaguar brand. I doubt that the Indians at Tata Motors and the German execs at JLR are under any illusions about the real state of play with Jaguar. They will know even with the so-called XE 3-Series Fighter, Jag cannot hope to compete with the German 3.
The XE, talk of a 2016 XF replacement and the SUV planned for sometime are basically windowdressing to ensure that Tata gets the highest price it can when they finally grasp the nettle and sell the brand. Ford's Premier Automotive Group in the early 2000s proved that it wasn't possible to take on the German 3, unless you were prepared to invest in the tens of billions, and have patience over decades of time, like Toyota with Lexus, and GM with Cadillac. For Tata to do this, itself floundering and cash-strapped, is ridiculous.
KiwiRob
Autotechnik Ace
I'm sure you know who the largest shareholder of Tesla is right?
That statement only makes sense if Mercedes buys AM. I also don't think Aston Martin would be the correct brand name to use on an SUV, it would have to be Lagonda, Mercedes hasn't had much success resurrecting long dead brand names.
Wolfgang
Kraftwagen König
^ Might be the "Aston Martin Lagonda", in case AM's SUV project gets funded one of these days? 
http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...han-one-model-coming.36817/page-2#post-664448
http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...han-one-model-coming.36817/page-2#post-664448
mini_cooper4
Autotechnik Ace
Am I right in thinking that the current range of engines are all supplied by Ford, is this partnership coming to an end?
All I know is that I'm more than happy with the performance and economy on offer from my RRSport HSE, it's a bit pokier than when the Cayenne was stock and so far is only down by 2.3mpg overall plus it's got a creamy note than wasn't present on the Cayenne.
All I know is that I'm more than happy with the performance and economy on offer from my RRSport HSE, it's a bit pokier than when the Cayenne was stock and so far is only down by 2.3mpg overall plus it's got a creamy note than wasn't present on the Cayenne.
Kilcrohane
Porsche Perfektionist
this is funny:
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...makers-off-to-good-start-on-cutting-emissions
WASHINGTON -- Automakers beat U.S. government goals for the first year of President Barack Obama’s new fuel economy standards, with only Jaguar Land Rover lacking enough EPA-issued credits to cover its obligations through the 2012 model year, according to an analysis the agency released today.
JLR's response:
Starting with the 2013 model year, the company started a transition from V-8 engines to more efficient V-6[ha ha!] and inline-four engines[Ford's dreadful, dangerous EcoBoost], from six-speed transmissions to eight-speed transmissions, and from steel platforms to aluminum platforms on some product lines.
that 'more efficient V-6' - the one that's a V8 - is the the one that Consumer Reports found managed only 17 mpg in the 'new', 'lightweight' all-aluminium 2014 Range Rover Sport, the one weighing 5,500 pounds, 550 pounds heavier! than the steel-bodied 2014 BMW X5 x35i, which managed 21 mpg:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...ange-rover-sport-first-drive-review/index.htm
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-bmw-x5-xdrive35i-test-review
The reality of JLR's true situation is finally becoming public.
The desperate need for proper engines was what drove Speth to beg BMW and VW at the end of last year to be able to buy theirs. That failed and now the reckoning is coming, with this US action the first of what will be serious and ultimately terminal issues for JLR, as engines are still the core of any proper carmaker.
The nauseating PR, endless propaganda and flat-out lies and thousands of bought-off hacks bought them five years or so since Ford turned off the 'sugar daddy' taps. The bullshit about making $1 billion a quarter profit obviously wasn't enough to fund a single new large engine program; either that or the $1 bn/qtr was a lie, or Tata is hoovering up every last penny to stay afloat.
It's over for this dreadful outfit. Reality of new product development and real engineering will always win out over London and Madison Avenue's 'finest' advertisers and marketers, although I'm sure these super-arrogant masters of the universe truly believe they can pull the wool over muppets' eyes forever.
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...makers-off-to-good-start-on-cutting-emissions
WASHINGTON -- Automakers beat U.S. government goals for the first year of President Barack Obama’s new fuel economy standards, with only Jaguar Land Rover lacking enough EPA-issued credits to cover its obligations through the 2012 model year, according to an analysis the agency released today.
JLR's response:
Starting with the 2013 model year, the company started a transition from V-8 engines to more efficient V-6[ha ha!] and inline-four engines[Ford's dreadful, dangerous EcoBoost], from six-speed transmissions to eight-speed transmissions, and from steel platforms to aluminum platforms on some product lines.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...ange-rover-sport-first-drive-review/index.htm
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-bmw-x5-xdrive35i-test-review
The reality of JLR's true situation is finally becoming public.
The desperate need for proper engines was what drove Speth to beg BMW and VW at the end of last year to be able to buy theirs. That failed and now the reckoning is coming, with this US action the first of what will be serious and ultimately terminal issues for JLR, as engines are still the core of any proper carmaker.
The nauseating PR, endless propaganda and flat-out lies and thousands of bought-off hacks bought them five years or so since Ford turned off the 'sugar daddy' taps. The bullshit about making $1 billion a quarter profit obviously wasn't enough to fund a single new large engine program; either that or the $1 bn/qtr was a lie, or Tata is hoovering up every last penny to stay afloat.
It's over for this dreadful outfit. Reality of new product development and real engineering will always win out over London and Madison Avenue's 'finest' advertisers and marketers, although I'm sure these super-arrogant masters of the universe truly believe they can pull the wool over muppets' eyes forever.
So the Ford Eco-Boost is also dangerous. Man you are a scream... seriously. 
Oh and I suppose I'm bullshitting that my RRS does nearly 31mpg of basically town driving because clearly this 50yr old V6 diesel under its bonnet couldn't possibly achieve such a figure.
I'd give up trying to convince us here and take to selling the stuff your spouting at garden centres I'm sure you'd make a mint.
P.S. I read one of your links, this one to be precise.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...ange-rover-sport-first-drive-review/index.htm
Its competitors leave the radio on until you press the button on the remote. Is this the best crap they can come up with? lol
Personally I never press the start/stop button on the dash when leaving the car, all I do is press the 'park' on the gearstick as you do on all of them with an auto and the engine dies but the radio remains on as does everything else, only when I release the seat belt does everything dies including the radio. Try that in your Audi/BMW.
Oh and I suppose I'm bullshitting that my RRS does nearly 31mpg of basically town driving because clearly this 50yr old V6 diesel under its bonnet couldn't possibly achieve such a figure.
I'd give up trying to convince us here and take to selling the stuff your spouting at garden centres I'm sure you'd make a mint.
P.S. I read one of your links, this one to be precise.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...ange-rover-sport-first-drive-review/index.htm
Its competitors leave the radio on until you press the button on the remote. Is this the best crap they can come up with? lol
Personally I never press the start/stop button on the dash when leaving the car, all I do is press the 'park' on the gearstick as you do on all of them with an auto and the engine dies but the radio remains on as does everything else, only when I release the seat belt does everything dies including the radio. Try that in your Audi/BMW.
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